Flash Powder Safety

[Richtee]

a few sources i read mentioned 4 ounces being enough to turn someone into a fine mist...but i'm sure 10 grams would be more than a blister.

Broken ear drums, possible blindness from the flash or debris, possible concussion..or death by the aforementioned debris. Fingers gone to stumps depending on position, general fire/mayhem in the area, busted out windows in a small room.

 

10g is a powerful amount. Hell, 1g is.

[ST1DinOH]

a few sources i read mentioned 4 ounces being enough to turn someone into a fine mist...but i'm sure 10 grams would be more than a blister.

Broken ear drums, possible blindness from the flash or debris, possible concussion..or death by the aforementioned debris. Fingers gone to stumps depending on position, general fire/mayhem in the area, busted out windows in a small room.

 

10g is a powerful amount. Hell, 1g is.

you've just sufficently scared the crap out of me.

 

thank you (not being sarcastic).

[jacob]

how bad would a person be hurt with a 10 gram batch going off on the table in front of them?

 

That would depend on what form it's in, 10 grams of flash made with indian or german dark in a salute would cause quite a bit of damage, probablly about what Richtee describes.

 

But on the other hand, 10 grams of slow flash, made with say, 325 mesh flake just in a pile on a piece of paper would probablly not be any worse then the same amount of BP.

 

You just need to experiment a bit (carefully of course) and get a feel for how powerfull it is.

 

I'm certainly no expert on this though, so please take my advice with a pinch of salt.

[Richtee]

you've just sufficently scared the crap out of me.

 

thank you (not being sarcastic).

Your welcome, and neither was I :{)

 

As mentioned it DOES depend, as "flash" is a general term. Perhaps I was describing Mag-alum/Perc 70/30 but in damage control, the worst case is the best one to assume. Things can only get better from there :{)

[ST1DinOH]

you've just sufficently scared the crap out of me.

 

thank you (not being sarcastic).

Your welcome, and neither was I :{)

 

As mentioned it DOES depend, as "flash" is a general term. Perhaps I was describing Mag-alum/Perc 70/30 but in damage control, the worst case is the best one to assume. Things can only get better from there :{)

well as you say it's probably best to deal in "worst case scenario's" when weighing the risks in this hobby.

 

but i was talking strictly 7:3 standard stuff.

 

nothing fancy that would be over my head and outside the realms of my chem supply closet.

 

so a 10 gram batch, sitting on a table, diapered together, unconfined.

 

i'm guessing it's still much more damage than any of us want to sustain.

 

just out of curiosity...

 

i keep hearing all this talk about achieving equal "booms" out of less dangerous alternatives.

 

is there any threads out there that discuss these alternatives?

 

i enjoy making flash, and testing the results a gram or two at a time. but if were able to get the same report with something not as re-active/dangerous i'd much rather be doing that.

 

for obvious reasons

 

first and foremost being my inexperience in making my own comps.

[Richtee]

just out of curiosity...

 

i keep hearing all this talk about achieving equal "booms" out of less dangerous alternatives.

 

is there any threads out there that discuss these alternatives?

Do a search and keep reading. look into a good whistle mix. Breaks shells and makes a fine report as well. Even good hot BP and a little containment does well.

 

The mix I mentioned detonates as if confined in a pile on a flat surface. The air can't move outta the way fast enough. Neither can anything else, obviously.

 

On edit..perhaps this should end here. There IS a more appropriate forum here for this discussion. I do not have access to it as of yet, but it's probably better that it be limited to there.

[justanotherpyro]

Someone can tell you that flash is scary stuff a million times over again, but IMO seeing is believing. I'm not saying that every kewl should throw together some flash and light a 30g pile of it, far from it. However, if you are now starting to handle it in controlled environments, are taking proper safety precautions etc....I would recommend making say a 5g batch putting a long fuse in a loose pile and watching the effects from far away. I can almost guarantee you that you will gain a healthy respect for it.

 

Keep in mind that everyone has their breaking points. If there are those of you that will not make more than 5g of flash because you are too uncomfortable with it, then please don't push your limits. Do like a 2.5 g pile. At any rate, whatever point you are comfortable at lighting a proportionately sized pile of flash can definitely open your eyes up.

 

I take no responsibility for the misuse of the information presented here, I hope that anyone who has enough common sense to read a safety thread on flash has enough brains to handle my info appropriately.

 

On a side note in response to D1's question. I had an interesting surprise today. I lit a dime sized pile of some delay comp that it is in my shed. Just slow BP and some white mix. The pile burned slowly as expected. To another dime sized pile I added half a pea sized portion of ~350-450 mesh MgAl. It turned the composition into flash. This might be something that could be an alternative to straight flash.

[WarezWally]

70/30 (potassium perchlorate & aluminium) flash powder isn't that sensitive to be honest.

 

I have hit small amounts on a anvil with a hammer with no effect, tried it again with some between some paper with no effect. I had difficulty getting it to ignite by passing a 25kV arc through it as well.

 

Its not some bogyman thats going to suddenly explode if you bump or drop it, exotic mixes are another story

[justanotherpyro]

You are right otherwise we wouldn't be shooting it up in the air inside of shells at high velocities. Then again neither is sawdust, or grain hazardous, until the conditions are right. Then you have potential for a massive fuel air explosion. This is always a tough kind of issue. What is safe and what isn't? Mixing FP by candlelight.....no brainer....mixing FP in a static free room with full gear very very very very minimal chances of it going off. To me it is all about being confident but not cocky. Confident enough to realize that it is not a primary explosive but it should be treated like one. Guns never hurt anyone, people do, and the "accidents" are to many and that is because of people not following proper safety precautions. Do as you will. No one here is holding our hand as we make FP. You make a point that FP isn't the most dangerous thing on the planet but it still should command GREAT respect!

 

A close friend of mine had a major accident which caused severe burns, pain, and trauma. Try telling him that KNO3/Sucrose is a "safe" composition. Under the wrong conditions it is very far from it. Flash would be much more dangerous than KNO3/Sucrose mix. Respect it enough to handle it safely, reject or accept the tips presented here and as frozentech says "stay green"

[Frozentech]

on a side note...how bad would a person be hurt with a 10 gram batch going off on the table in front of them?

My best guess - 3rd degree burns on hands and wrists, with deep enough damage to cripple tendons and nerves, flash burns to eyes that potentially cause permanent damage or blindness. I wouldn't expect much in the way of explosive trauma from 10g unconfined. Basically just the experience of having a blowtorch lick over your hands and face ?

[50AE]

Maybe you mean temporary blindess. I don't think it can be permanent.

For my flash, 1 gram is already very scary, but I'm confident mixing 10 grams, hoping it won't spontaneously ignite. If it does, I'll get 3rd degree bruns over my hands for sure.

[Stinger]

Hi

 

Dear 50AE, if you mix 10g of KClO4/Al flashpowder and if it goes off,

then you will definately loose 2 or three fingers.

It´s because 10g of well mixed perchlorate flash does selfconfine with very scary

results.

You will also totally damage your eyes because of the emitted UV light.

 

Personally, I only mix 5g at a time, wearing a dust mask and wearing a cable connected

to my wrist, to decharge builded up electricity.

The cable is knoted on the heater or other metal objects and I (hope) I am fine.

 

 

Stinger

[Richtee]

Maybe you mean temporary blindess. I don't think it can be permanent.

For my flash, 1 gram is already very scary, but I'm confident mixing 10 grams, hoping it won't spontaneously ignite. If it does, I'll get 3rd degree bruns over my hands for sure.

The original

 

 

 

**************************************************

 

MOD EDIT: THis has been a clinical safety discussion so far,

and it's going to stay that way.

 

Next person who puts a recipe for

a banned device in here, gets a vacation.

**************************************************

Edited April 6, 2008 by TheSidewinder

[50AE]

This depends of the quality of the flash powder. Yesterday I tried a mixture of 70 KClO4 and 30 Al and because my aluminium sucked (400mesh atomized), it burned like a flare (worse than my previous k3wl permanganate flashes with the same aluminium). But maybe you speak for flash powder with 2um Al, I agree, this stuff is powerful and self confines when more than 1gram.

 

By the way, my mom this morning washed the sink in my bathroom, where I put my flash powder. When I took it, it had a few drops of water inside. Is the water dangerous for it, should I throw it away, or just let it stay and dry ?

[TheSidewinder]

Like I said I have been experimenting with it. I'm using home made MgAl and gauging particle size rougly by color of the metal powder after having been ball milled down. It has a fairly high ignition temp when its a lower mesh and I was having difficulty getting reliable ignition. After grinding down to higher meshes the sulfur is being phased out because it is no longer necessary. The experimenting has been going on unsteadily now for months and I'm just now getting it down.

Good grief, this thread got active...

 

So you needed to lower the ignition temp when using coarser MgAl. Makes sense.

 

How coarse were you able to go on the MgAl and still have the S make a difference? And how fine did you go before you didn't need any added Sulfur?

[TheSidewinder]

By the way, my mom this morning washed the sink in my bathroom, where I put my flash powder. When I took it, it had a few drops of water inside. Is the water dangerous for it, should I throw it away, or just let it stay and dry ?

Personally, I'd dispose of it. I'm assuming you were snart enough to make only a very small batch.

 

Safest way I can thing of right now is sprinkle it outside on the grass scattering it very well (but gently), and water it down good with a garden hose.

[jlmemt]

I would agree that 10 grams made with quality materials could cause major injury!

I had 5 grams that I tried to slow down, but all I ended up doing was bulking it.

It scared the crap out of me and I was about 100 yards away when it ignited.

I had taken the proper precautions so there was no damage and no injuries but it would have been very different if I was right there with it!

 

DO NOT TAKE IT FOR GRANTED!

[Richtee]

Maybe you mean temporary blindess. I don't think it can be permanent.

For my flash, 1 gram is already very scary, but I'm confident mixing 10 grams, hoping it won't spontaneously ignite. If it does, I'll get 3rd degree bruns over my hands for sure.

The original

 

 

 

**************************************************

 

MOD EDIT: THis has been a clinical safety discussion so far,

and it's going to stay that way.

 

Next person who puts a recipe for

a banned device in here, gets a vacation.

**************************************************

Sorry... I apologize. Should have thought of that. Was just trying to make a point on the differences of mixes and the relative power of them.

 

It is published info, but should not be propagated.

[50AE]

TITLE OF POST:

 

Flash Powder Safety, Types of Gear worn

 

 

Now ask yourself that question again.

Edited April 13, 2008 by TheSidewinder

[oskarchem]

I would just like to press on the fact of the dangerosity of flash... I just now made some 7:3 flash, this is my first time making it, and well, now I know what respect this comp needs to get, apart for the horrible luminosity that it makes burning, it "thumps" aswell... I'll not be making any for quite some time...

 

Just stay safe, and read the precautions before making it...

[BLAST420]

My flash is not very fine, so should it be less sensible then ? The aluminium is 400mesh automized, 400 mesh sulfur and grinded KNO3/KMnO4.

ANYTHING containing KMnO4 and a fuel should be treated as a primary explosive. Especially when sulfur or metal powders are in the composition.

 

I've tested enough with KMnO4 as an oxidiser and feel experienced enough to say "STOP USING KMnO4 IN PYRO".

Compositions with even less sensitive fuels become hot to the touch when slightly moist or even dripping wet.

This happens with water aswell as hydrocarbon solvents!!

 

KMnO4 is way too unstable/reactive for use in practical pyrotechnics. Period.

ok....so what does everyone do then? I don't hear of hundreds of accidents a day so explain your need to exaggerate on the danger of that chemical...!! this topic all ways gets blown out of proportion.... alot of things are dangerous in life, but it is all how you handle them! There should be more talk on this subject about how to safely make, handle, good practices, ect instead of just posting pages of exaggerated scares. It is always going to be made and always has sooooo better to perfect than ignore

[oskarchem]

Pyrotechnics has it's bad sides, I don't have enough chemistry knowledge to explain the instablility of Potassium Permanganate, but I guess it's like KClO3+S... And don't think that these messages are exxagerated I thaught so too until I made my first batch of flash, some compositions require the respect that you would give a human being. Flash is one of them.

[Bonny]

ok....so what does everyone do then? I don't hear of hundreds of accidents a day so explain your need to exaggerate on the danger of that chemical...!! this topic all ways gets blown out of proportion.... alot of things are dangerous in life, but it is all how you handle them!  There should be more talk on this subject about how to safely make, handle, good practices, ect instead of just posting pages of exaggerated scares.  It is always going to be made and always has sooooo better to perfect than ignore

You might not hear of so many accidents because most people are smart enough to stay away from certain comps. Hopefully you will fall into this group!

Some things are better left un-made. As there are safer alternatives, why take the risk? More talk on methods of handling etc.. would only encourage noobs (including you) into thinking it's a good thing to try and make. The end result would likely be more accidents for you to read about. IMO the lack of discussion is a good thing and the scare is also a good thing, hopefully discouraging people from playing with such dangerous comps.

[BLAST420]

ok see and this is where I get confused.. Now I understnad very dangerous thing here and I understand you are right that more talk would prolly mean MORE PLAY..so I guess all is well with leaving it out of discussion most of the times! But this is where I am confused....isnt it used everyday?? As far as like real aerial salutes and so on and break charges(raley I would suppose) ??? I'm just tryin to find an explanation.? why is it such white/black topic??? I mean one place guy is shakin 100 g in baggie other places guy wont even make 3g??? Just confuses me. I guess I just dont see the worry if you are responsable AND use ONLY when needed. my problem I am having is I can NOT find an alternative to what I need for

[Bonny]

ok see and this is where I get confused.. Now I understnad very dangerous thing here and I understand you are right that more talk would prolly mean MORE PLAY..so I guess all is well with leaving it out of discussion most of the times! But this is where I am confused....isnt it used everyday?? As far as like real aerial salutes and so on and break charges(raley I would suppose) ??? I'm just tryin to find an explanation.? why is it such white/black topic??? I mean one place guy is shakin 100 g in baggie other places guy wont even make 3g??? Just confuses me. I guess I just dont see the worry if you are responsable AND use ONLY when needed. my problem I am having is I can NOT find an alternative to what I need for

I could say for sure shaking a 100g bag of FP is nothing short of completely stupid, and that person is an accident waiting to happen.Permanganate FP is I think among the most dangerous and can easily be avoided by using safer kinds. It is true that is is used in salutes, but not likely permanganates. Look on pfp databse for more comps that are SAFER...there is no real safe FP. You can make salutes with granulated BP, just not as loud.