ST1DinOH Posted November 2, 2007 Posted November 2, 2007 tommorrow a bunch of co-workers and i are heading to the local gun shop to do some target practice and i was thinking of picking up some goex. i'm not sure what all they carry but i know they don't carry "cannon" grade. just curious what i should get whiel i'm there for making lift, break, and eventualy stars... also is there anything else i should pick up whiel im there? anything esle handy for the hobby like a pyrodex. thanks in advance.
mormanman Posted November 2, 2007 Posted November 2, 2007 Get some 50 cal. musket ball, they'll really help for the ball mill.
ST1DinOH Posted November 2, 2007 Author Posted November 2, 2007 Get some 50 cal. musket ball, they'll really help for the ball mill. see now...i never would have thought of that... are they cheaper/better than ordering standard milling media from a site that sells ball mills? if so i'm planning on building a ball mill here this winter and i'm going to be looking to do so on a budget. what i'm realy wondering is what grain sizes of goex should i be after. from what i understand this store carrys a ton of different kinds, and whiel i know the difference between 1F and 4F i don't have a frickin clue as to whats used for what. well...sorta... i know the coarser grains like 1F and cannon are better for lift, and i've been told the 4f works fine burst...but i don't exactly trust my memory on that part. bottom line is i'm about to spend money on some BP and i don't know what the best way is to spend the $. i don't have a ball mill yet otherwise i'd be making my own BP. so for now i'm kinda stuck buying it. then again nothing teaches you the value of doing something yourself like paying full price for it. i know i appreciated wholesale 1.4 after paying retail all thoes years (phantom *facepalm) so i don't mind spending money on some BP now and learning to appreciate the milling later. i've got a lot of research to do before i go and start buying chems and milling them. untill then i'd just assume have something i know is done right and is the propper grain size. if anyone can help me out i'd appreciate it, at least point me to a link here that will awnser my questions. as you might imagine doing a search for BP on this site is pointless as it is mentioned in just about 3/4 of the existing threads.
hst45 Posted November 3, 2007 Posted November 3, 2007 You might stop by the reloading department and get a box of 100 primers. They make a good core for a flash-core star, but I gotta tell you, they are a stone bitch to roll. I use small rifle primers, other guys use large, but I think that's just primer envy .
Draco_Aster Posted November 3, 2007 Posted November 3, 2007 I use commercial 2Fg for lifting my small shells (1 to 3" canister/ball). Works fine and not too hard on them. If your just going to be lifting small shells (below 4") I would get the 2Fg. More efficient than using larger amounts of coarser grade. For break charges I would always use homemade BP on a carrier such as rice hulls or puffs with a flash booster. I have heard the smokeless reloading powder can be used in place of pure nitrocellulose in NC laquer but I have never had the need to use it, so not 100% sure there
ST1DinOH Posted November 3, 2007 Author Posted November 3, 2007 You might stop by the reloading department and get a box of 100 primers. They make a good core for a flash-core star, but I gotta tell you, they are a stone bitch to roll. I use small rifle primers, other guys use large, but I think that's just primer envy . lol @ primer envy. yet another thing i never would have thought of before tommorrow morning. so basicly i'd be using these as the base to roll stars "around". basicly coating the primers in comp to give the stars a pop at the end eh? thats very cool. thanks for the tip. I use commercial 2Fg for lifting my small shells (1 to 3" canister/ball). Works fine and not too hard on them. If your just going to be lifting small shells (below 4") I would get the 2Fg. More efficient than using larger amounts of coarser grade. For break charges I would always use homemade BP on a carrier such as rice hulls or puffs with a flash booster. I have heard the smokeless reloading powder can be used in place of pure nitrocellulose in NC laquer but I have never had the need to use it, so not 100% sure there perfect. as of right now i've been trying my hand at 1.75's and 3's and i've been toying with the idea of stepping it up to 4's but i'm comfortable for now so may just stick with 3's. if 2F is suitable for 3's then i'll be grabbing some of that. the way i see it a can of 1f, 2f and 4f will be hitting my debt card for sure, possibly some primers and 50 cal balls if i can swing it. quite frankly i'm still a ways from the ball mill, but i should be up and running by new years. might get the milling/rolling materials when i actually have a mill to use them in. thanks for the advice guys. now i'm off to win some goex money from coworkers on the range. these fools have no idea i can shoot. i'm already planning my hustle and i've reserved a .45 DE (baby E) just so i know it's there waiting for me to rent. hopefully i can get them to fund the whole thing
mormanman Posted November 3, 2007 Posted November 3, 2007 The "media" if you purchase at a gunstore it is significantly different in the price b/c: 1. theres no shipping, 2. you can get 100 balls for $12 from bass pro which is crazy b/c the are like hella expensive. And the bp, I'll I got to say is with the "F's" the high the number the small the grain size. And if the grain size is small the bp burns faster.Correct me if I'm wrong.
Mumbles Posted November 3, 2007 Posted November 3, 2007 Here's a list of grain sizes. In generally, we refer to the FA system, as it is the prefered grade for some reason. It's used in the blasting industry, and cheaper I believe. 2FA is the standard canister shell break, and lift. I find it is a little light in the trousers for things 3" and below. My mines didn't bang like normal, and my single break 3" and lower shells never seem to get proper loft. I'd recomend something like 4FA for that. 4FA is really good for breaking small canister shells, even 3 and 4" actually. I use a different method, but I've broken them well with 4FA. 2Fg will be fine for lift though. I get pretty good preformance out of 1Fg, but 2Fg will also be fine. You may want to use the 1Fg for liftinging, and the 2Fg for bursting in a canule, or lifting small shells. 2FA ~= Cannon4FA ~= 1Fg I don't know if 4Fg has much of a use. It is approximatly equal to Meal D. It can be used for things like that, but I'd recomend making your own though. It's kinda expensive to be making into stars and primes. You can coat it onto hulls or puffed rice for a burst though if you want. Expensive, but it will go a long way in 3 and 4" ball shells. U.S. Blasting Powder Grain Size GRADE MESH RANGE FA 3 - 5 2FA 4 - 12 3FA 10 - 16 4FA 12 - 20 5FA 20 - 50 6FA 30 - 50 7FA 40 - 100 Meal D - 50 Fine Meal - 100 X-Fine Meal -140 Black Powder Grain Sizes GRADE MESH RANGE Cannon 6 - 12 Saluting 10 - 20 Fg 12 - 16 2Fg 16 - 30 3Fg 20 - 50 4Fg 40 - 100
tentacles Posted November 3, 2007 Posted November 3, 2007 If you want to pick up smokeless powder for NC lacquer, just buy the cheapest single base powder they have. Brand and speed are pretty unimportant when you're using it as a binder. Double base smokeless powder means it has NC and also nitroglycerine, which may make you uncomfortable - Lloyd Sponenburgh mentioned that he's only seen one situation where it was a problem, and it involved 15 pounds of dragon egg comp drying in a block with a pool of NG on top. So if double base is all they have, just buy the slowest one - it will contain the least amount of NG. Speaking of NC, I was at walmart the other day and they had some cheap chinese hammers, with a thick coat of NC, and when you hit them together right the NC would pop, there was even a nice little puff of smoke. I was thinking that, those of us who ram comp, make sure there's no NC on your hammer!!
NightHawkInLight Posted November 3, 2007 Posted November 3, 2007 Smokeless is made from NC, however you will have a very hard time finding a smokeless powder that is made from pure NC. In fact I don't believe it has ever been made only from straight NC. If you really want pure high quality nitrocellulose lacquer your only choices are to make your own NC (a simple task but better left to the HE section) or to buy it already in lacquer form. Smokeless powders might be suitable, but the added components make me nervous. hst45:Interesting idea with the primer cores, I'm not sure how much they cost but it could be worth it in some cases. Sensitive, but I'm sure they provide quite a bang.
qwezxc12 Posted November 4, 2007 Posted November 4, 2007 hst45:Interesting idea with the primer cores, I'm not sure how much they cost but it could be worth it in some cases. Sensitive, but I'm sure they provide quite a bang. I use large pistol primers (Not sure if this constitutes "primer envy" or not...they're large, but only pistol, not rifle primers). Here is a 3in shell, with 3/8" stars made from BP with an additional 15% 100-200 mesh MgAl rolled on the primers:3in shell This is a excerpt from the show I did in August. The mines are all 2in: blue, green, and red, with the same 3/8" rolled primer stars in between:2in Mines I can get 1000 primers for ~$24...not the most economical, but I haven't made the time to make Dragon's Eggs yet. I plan to try magnum shotgun primers next; hoping they;ll be a little louder. I wouldn't worry about the sensitivity.
deadman Posted November 4, 2007 Posted November 4, 2007 Speaking of NC, I was at walmart the other day and they had some cheap chinese hammers, with a thick coat of NC, and when you hit them together right the NC would pop, there was even a nice little puff of smoke. I was thinking that, those of us who ram comp, make sure there's no NC on your hammer!! My post was actually in regards to the comment that the NC coated balls were giving off a puff of smoke. I was just concerned that it wasn't pure NC if it was smoking since as far as I know it is smokeless.
ST1DinOH Posted November 5, 2007 Author Posted November 5, 2007 Here's a list of grain sizes. In generally, we refer to the FA system, as it is the prefered grade for some reason. It's used in the blasting industry, and cheaper I believe. 2FA is the standard canister shell break, and lift. I find it is a little light in the trousers for things 3" and below. My mines didn't bang like normal, and my single break 3" and lower shells never seem to get proper loft. I'd recomend something like 4FA for that. 4FA is really good for breaking small canister shells, even 3 and 4" actually. I use a different method, but I've broken them well with 4FA. 2Fg will be fine for lift though. I get pretty good preformance out of 1Fg, but 2Fg will also be fine. You may want to use the 1Fg for liftinging, and the 2Fg for bursting in a canule, or lifting small shells. 2FA ~= Cannon4FA ~= 1Fg I don't know if 4Fg has much of a use. It is approximatly equal to Meal D. It can be used for things like that, but I'd recomend making your own though. It's kinda expensive to be making into stars and primes. You can coat it onto hulls or puffed rice for a burst though if you want. Expensive, but it will go a long way in 3 and 4" ball shells. U.S. Blasting Powder Grain Size GRADE MESH RANGE FA 3 - 5 2FA 4 - 12 3FA 10 - 16 4FA 12 - 20 5FA 20 - 50 6FA 30 - 50 7FA 40 - 100 Meal D - 50 Fine Meal - 100 X-Fine Meal -140 Black Powder Grain Sizes GRADE MESH RANGE Cannon 6 - 12 Saluting 10 - 20 Fg 12 - 16 2Fg 16 - 30 3Fg 20 - 50 4Fg 40 - 100 wow...tons of info there...thanks. ok here's where i ended up i walked out of there with a can of 1F and a can of 4F. i figure i could use the 1F for lift and the 4F for all sorts of things from mass launch bottle rocket tables to 80/20 if i want. the question i have is what is the difference in the charts? moreover is goex measured in the FA system or the other? and if they differ what would 4f and 1f goex be equivilent to on the FA scale? from the sounds of it goex uses the FG scale, but i'm kinda novice at all this so bear with me if i'm asking about something you've just awnsered. judging by the mesh ranges you just posted, and assuming goex uses a FG scale i'm going to assume that... 1F goex = 3FAand4F goex = 7FA amirite?
TheSidewinder Posted November 5, 2007 Posted November 5, 2007 Commercial powders, like Goex, used for muzzleloaders are Fg (the g means glazed, usually with graphite, for ease of pouring). I use 4Fg for burst, and 2Fg for lift, in my 3 and 4-inch chells. This is only because I have a few cans left from my muzzleloading days. I'm running out now, and will switch to good home-made powder when it's all used up. But it works perfectly for me. I'm told that 4Fa lies roughly between 1Fa and 2Fa.
Mumbles Posted November 5, 2007 Posted November 5, 2007 Yes, Sidewinder is right. If it is sold in one pound canisters, it's Fg. The can should look something like this:http://www.norwestcompany.com/bp.jpg I've only seen FA powders come in 25lb bags. It's confusing because Goex makes both Fg and FA powders. What you have is approximatly a 3FA. Though 3FA is more or less equivalent to 4FA. Just look at the over lap. They can be used interchangably for our purposes. The 4Fg is indeed approximatly a 7FA or meal D. The blasting grades are weird as there is always tons of over lap. If you really look at it, the only sizes really needed are FA, 2FA, 4FA, 5FA and meal D.
ST1DinOH Posted November 5, 2007 Author Posted November 5, 2007 Commercial powders, like Goex, used for muzzleloaders are Fg (the g means glazed, usually with graphite, for ease of pouring). I use 4Fg for burst, and 2Fg for lift, in my 3 and 4-inch chells. This is only because I have a few cans left from my muzzleloading days. I'm running out now, and will switch to good home-made powder when it's all used up. But it works perfectly for me. I'm told that 4Fa lies roughly between 1Fa and 2Fa. Yes, Sidewinder is right. If it is sold in one pound canisters, it's Fg. The can should look something like this:http://www.norwestcompany.com/bp.jpg I've only seen FA powders come in 25lb bags. It's confusing because Goex makes both Fg and FA powders. What you have is approximatly a 3FA. Though 3FA is more or less equivalent to 4FA. Just look at the over lap. They can be used interchangably for our purposes. The 4Fg is indeed approximatly a 7FA or meal D. The blasting grades are weird as there is always tons of over lap. If you really look at it, the only sizes really needed are FA, 2FA, 4FA, 5FA and meal D. thanks guys...that helps a lot. the pic of the can you linked is identical to what i have, one of them says "F" the other "FFFF" in looking at goex's website i see what you mean about how confusing it gets. nice to see they have a whole section devoted to pyro here: http://www.goexpowder.com/product-commercial.html#fire
psyco_1322 Posted November 5, 2007 Posted November 5, 2007 Id get 3fg (FFFg) and use it for lift, you'll use good bit less. I can really tell the difference between it 2fg when shooting shells. And if you can get 54cal round balls they might be better as they are bigger, 50s look small after a bit of usage but thats more than likely lost lead as they are quite soft.
FrankRizzo Posted November 6, 2007 Posted November 6, 2007 Avoid the lead musket balls for milling media. They are much too soft, and will wear down in less than 20 batches of powder.
ST1DinOH Posted November 6, 2007 Author Posted November 6, 2007 Avoid the lead musket balls for milling media. They are much too soft, and will wear down in less than 20 batches of powder. lol...i love your name frank...i spent most of my teen years listening to and doing my best jerky boys impressions. helped out a lot when i was a telemarketer (*shudder) for a few years.
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