Diablo Posted March 12, 2006 Posted March 12, 2006 First, I don't know if this should be posted here or in the High Explosives section, but because this is mainly about safety, and not about the production of NI3, I'll post it here. A few friends and I made some NI3 (also known as Ammonium Triiodine) a while ago, and we noticed that as long it was wet, it didn't detonate, even if whe tried to light it. We stored some of it in water, and detonated it some time later. The only problem was that it took really long for the water to evaporate (about an hour), so we tried to come up with better ways to store it. I suggested storing it in ethanol alcohol, because that evaporates faster that water. My question is: Is it safe to store NI3 in a fluid (like alcohol), that evaporates faster than water? Or will it react with the fluid, which will make the NI3 even more unstable? (For those who don't know about NI3: NI3 sometimes detonates spontaneously, just because of its own weight)
Pretty green flame Posted March 12, 2006 Posted March 12, 2006 First, I don't know if this should be posted here or in the High Explosives section, but because this is mainly about safety, and not about the production of NI3, I'll post it here. A few friends and I made some NI3 (also known as Ammonium Triiodine) a while ago, and we noticed that as long it was wet, it didn't detonate, even if whe tried to light it. We stored some of it in water, and detonated it some time later. The only problem was that it took really long for the water to evaporate (about an hour), so we tried to come up with better ways to store it. I suggested storing it in ethanol alcohol, because that evaporates faster that water. My question is: Is it safe to store NI3 in a fluid (like alcohol), that evaporates faster than water? Or will it react with the fluid, which will make the NI3 even more unstable? (For those who don't know about NI3: NI3 sometimes detonates spontaneously, just because of its own weight) Ammonium Triiodine, never heard of it....oh maybe you mean Nitrogen Triiodide. As for storing, i would never store this stuff in any way, far to unpredictable but that's me being paranoid and scared of the stuff. Water would be my choice, i don't care if it takes a couple of hours to dry, as long as it does.
BigBang Posted March 12, 2006 Posted March 12, 2006 PGF, it does go by ammonium triiodide to, it is just less common. Just don't store it. Whatever it is in will slowly evaporate. This could lead to crystals forming in a place that might be touched, moved, air blown on, to make it detonate. Just make it in small batches and use it only when you need to.
cyclonite4 Posted March 12, 2006 Posted March 12, 2006 Diablo, a quick google gives these two sites:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nitrogen_triiodidehttp://www.roguesci.org/megalomania/explo/..._triiodide.html According to the wiki, ethanol can be used to "store" NI3.NH3 (and that it regains its activity once the EtOH has evaporated, although it is still a risk), but as said by many, it shouldn't really be stored at all. I've never made the stuff, and probably never would, but I can see that the point of not storing it is stressed enough. I imagine it would *kind of* be practice for handling other explosives, because it would make you extremely cautious/paranoid.
Pretty green flame Posted March 12, 2006 Posted March 12, 2006 PGF, it does go by ammonium triiodide to, it is just less common. Sorry, heh, i guess i never heard of it.
Crazy Swede Posted March 12, 2006 Posted March 12, 2006 If you crush small crystals of NI3 under water the will explode with a small flash and a little pop! Shows that water is not a safe way to store or phlegmatize the product!
Diablo Posted March 12, 2006 Author Posted March 12, 2006 Diablo, a quick google gives these two sites:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nitrogen_triiodidehttp://www.roguesci.org/megalomania/explo/..._triiodide.html According to the wiki, ethanol can be used to "store" NI3.NH3 (and that it regains its activity once the EtOH has evaporated, although it is still a risk), but as said by many, it shouldn't really be stored at all. I've never made the stuff, and probably never would, but I can see that the point of not storing it is stressed enough. I imagine it would *kind of* be practice for handling other explosives, because it would make you extremely cautious/paranoid. Thnx for the links, I couldn't find them because my Wikipedia and Google are in Dutch. I get why most people here think it isn't safe to store NI3, but I'm not planning on storing it either. My friends and I were just speculating if alcohol would make it safer, or make it more dangerous. @PGF: Ammonium Triiodine is the name used in the Anarchist Cookbook, so most n00bs don't understand the name Nitrogen Triiodine. That's why I posted that name too.
Swany Posted March 12, 2006 Posted March 12, 2006 Techincally, it could be named both. Hypothetically, you want pure NI3, but you get NI3.xNH3. The weaker the ammonia solution is that is used to create the NI3, the more ammonium ions attach, and thus the sensitivity increases. At least, this is how I think it goes. In short, dont store it!
cyclonite4 Posted March 13, 2006 Posted March 13, 2006 Yes, they can be called the same.Although its the other way around (at least according to the links), the stronger the ammonium solution, the more sensitive the final product, unless of course they made a typo. Anyone with first hand experience care to comment?
maximusg Posted March 13, 2006 Posted March 13, 2006 Well, I have first hand experience in the production... But not storing... I wouldn't have the balls to store it no matter how wet it was. It is the apitimy of sensitivity.
Swany Posted March 13, 2006 Posted March 13, 2006 I don't remeber exactly, you could be very right cyclonite. To quote The Duke from the old forum: '...Basically NI3 made with weak Ammonium Hydroxide is even more sensitive than NI3 made with Conc. Ammonium Hydroxide. The extra NH3 molecules form adducts referred to as ammonates. The more ammonate groups the less sensitive the NI3*(NH3)x.' He also gave this link, which should help you some: http://yarchive.net/explosives/ni3.html
cyclonite4 Posted March 13, 2006 Posted March 13, 2006 In my opinion, it would be a combination of what both of us said, such as:"The stronger the Ammonia Solution, the more ammonate groups, the less sensitive". Unless of course thats what you were saying (i.e. you made a typo the first time around) The weaker the ammonia solution is that is used to create the NI3, the more ammonium ions attach I personally support the "stronger NH4OH, less sensitive NI3.(NH3)x". BTW, by personal experience, I meant with different concentrations of Ammonia, not storage (I wouldn't expect anyone to have the desire to store it ).
Diablo Posted March 13, 2006 Author Posted March 13, 2006 I can imagine that I'm the only one brave (or stupid) enough to try and store it, but currently I'm testing if NI3 makes a good timed detonator, and that is working pretty well. The time of detonation is dependant of the liquid used, so this should be pretty handy to use as a timer for other high explosives. (Just need to find out af what rates the liquids evaporate)
Rooster Posted March 13, 2006 Posted March 13, 2006 That is extremely stupid. We warn people that they should be really careful handling AP, and that if they can, they should use another primary. Using nitrogen triiodide as a primary is VERY stupid, not because it will explode every time you use it, but the chance of it exploding is greater than with conventional primaries. As Crazy_Swede said, it CAN explode even when wet. If you are gonna use this explosive, do not use it with HE's!
Diablo Posted March 13, 2006 Author Posted March 13, 2006 That is extremely stupid. We warn people that they should be really careful handling AP, and that if they can, they should use another primary. Using nitrogen triiodide as a primary is VERY stupid, not because it will explode every time you use it, but the chance of it exploding is greater than with conventional primaries. As Crazy_Swede said, it CAN explode even when wet. If you are gonna use this explosive, do not use it with HE's!I know it can explode anytime, so i was thinking about something like this: NI3 => connect to fuse => connect to HE I guess that will be pretty safe.
BigBang Posted March 13, 2006 Posted March 13, 2006 NI3 doesn't produce much heat when it dets so it might not even light the fuse. And what if it does? If you put it on, bang, it's lit! OH SHIT RUN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Not the best idea
aquaman Posted March 13, 2006 Posted March 13, 2006 Another thing with the NI3 how would you transport it to the detonation area? NI3 is to sensitive to be just carrying around.
Rooster Posted March 13, 2006 Posted March 13, 2006 NI3 goes off way too fast to light any regular BP fuse. You could use detcord, but then again the point is gone, right?
aquaman Posted March 14, 2006 Posted March 14, 2006 Yes, I believe the whole point was to remotely detonate a primary by the means of throwing it or hitting the end of the fuse with the NI3 but my idea was what would stop it from igniting the fuse if you accidently drop it or bump it against something? So all in all using NI3 for an ignition/detination is mostly impossible and improbable as it is too sensitive.
maximusg Posted March 14, 2006 Posted March 14, 2006 if you accidently drop it or bump it against something? Or if an ant crawls on top of it.
al93535 Posted March 14, 2006 Posted March 14, 2006 Yeah, here is the BEST way to store it. A bottle of ammonia, and a bottle of iodine crystals. Very stable, and will store for a good long time.
Amleth Posted March 15, 2006 Posted March 15, 2006 Diablo, how are you even still alive? The unintentional comedy in this thread is hilarious, if somewhat disturbing. (Still, at least he isn't suggesting storing it in onion juice or something...)
Diablo Posted March 15, 2006 Author Posted March 15, 2006 Diablo, how are you even still alive? Because I ask first, en then, when I'm at least 90% sure it's safe, try it out. I know NI3 isn't the best stuff to mess around with, so when I mess around with it, I try to do it in a safe way. But ontopic: I asked my chemistry teacher if there was any way to store this stuff, and he said that the best way was to dissolve the crystals, and filter them out when I want to use them. He didn't say what the safest way to dissolve them was. Do you know how I can do this?
Rooster Posted March 15, 2006 Posted March 15, 2006 The thing is that if you dissolve them, at some point evaporation of the solvent or differences in temperature is bound to crystallize out some of the triiodide. If you have dry triiodide on the inside of a glass container (or any container) you are waiting for a bad accident to happen. Reach for the bottle, and kaboom! Where did my fingers go?
Mumbles Posted March 20, 2006 Posted March 20, 2006 One thing to note is that NI3*NH3x is an extremely weak explosive. It doesn't produce a flame, or much heat, and it isn't powerful enough to set anything off. I've made it once. I was the TA for AP chem, and I used it as a demo. We were talking about bond strength and such. I believe I used 10% ammonia. I filtered it through a buchner funnel with some light suction, and added the wet crystals to some filter paper on ring stands, and did them at the end of class. It was good times. We couldn't do it in the hood due to the draft, and no one knowing how to turn it off. Gotta love the poisonous I2 vapor in the air.
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