Whistle Rockets

[keepkool79]

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b99/keepkool79/03-02-06049.jpg

I wanted to start a topic on whistle rockets. I want to start by asking what type of pot. perchlorate you all are using. I found that the "Chinese Gourmet" is the best that I have worked with. I talked to Steve La Duke and he said that the Taiwanese High Purity is the best out there. He also said that is the next best thing to the old Swedish perc. I used some real cheap stuff in my whistle rockets ones and it does make a huge difference. I made a 3lb whistle rocket and the thing barely got off the ground with a 4 inch shell. It really struggled to get off the ground, did a big arch, hit the ground, then boom! For those that are not familiar with whistle rockets, they take off really quick, as soon as the fuse gets near the composition, it's gone. This is a pic of a 3lb whistle rocket with a 60 gram salute heading. I added titanium for a real bright break. I made this at a club shoot a few months ago. It is awesome for people that are not licensed, you can go to an open shoot, mix the comp. and press the rocket in an hour or two, and shoot rockets till your heart is content. No laws being broken. Lots of fun for all. Let me know about your experiences with pot. perc and what works best for you.

Thanks,

[Guest RaiderZon]

Let me know about your experiences with pot. perc and what works best for you.

Thanks,

I have had success with some very fine Chinese Gourmet perc that I purchased from Discount Pyro. Although I have purchased some inexpensive domestic perc recentlyl and I'm really hoping that this doesnt effect the whistle mix in performance.

 

I've toyed with Warren Klofkorns "Screaming Banshee" formula, which makes a very nice bird of prey type tone but lacks power. My favorite whisltle rocket formula is the one on passfire in the 6lb Whistle Rocket article. This formula creates very intense rockets that have most impressive takeoffs and have a shril whislte tone throughout the entire flight. Would aslo like to note that I have been using mineral oil in place of petroleum jelly. The comp presses very well and there is no change in performance. This eliminates the need to melt the petroleum jelly in camping fuel.

 

2oz Salicylate Whistle Rocket with report inserts:

http://raiderzon.pyroshack.com/video/2oz_sali_salutes.mpg

[Boomer]

Is there really such a *quality* difference between suppliers? I'd guess as long as it's pure, not self-made with 10% KCl it should not matter.

 

What *does* matter is particle size, and intimacy of mixing. Since you will NOT ball-mill them together, has someone tried (co-)precipitating from solutions? I got down to 2 microns by crashing a hot solution into a miscible non-solvent. That was a different chemical, but you get the point.

 

Another idea is to use excess solvent for the pet jelly, one that is a solvent also for the salicylate, to coat the ball-milled perc, then evaporate.

 

You know I am not much into fireworks, these are general thoughts to get reaction rate up. If I'm talking shit without having a clue just say so...

[FrKoNaLeaSh1010]

My prefered pot perc that I know of to get would be chinese gourmet. It almost flows and I think adds a lot to better mixing. The new perc I have now is rather inexpensive and clumpy as shit but I sieve it through a -12 mesh screen and use that. I think any differences would be due to the particle size though as most commercial KClO4 is prolly 95%+ pure which is good enough. I believe If I were to coffee grind the cheap perc first and then mix it that It would be pretty much the same as the chinese gourmet.

[Mumbles]

The problem with coprecipitating them is that the Potassium Perchlorate is pretty insoluble even at high temperatures I believe. I am also having trouble thinking of solvents for both petroleum jelly and Sodium salicyliate. Acetone is the only (common) thing I can think of that even has a possibility of working.

 

As far as purity differences, there is some. Not neccesarily from the different suppliers, but rather in the product itself. The main difference is different particle sizes. There are also purity differences, but they are all pure enough to function.

[HoS]

Can't one ball mill a rougher grade? (Please correct me if I'm wrong)

[al93535]

Yes you can.

 

I have clumpy perchlorate and I ball mill it. It comes out finer then the powdered stuff from firefox and works just as well. In fact you can save a little bit of money this way. I use a jar just for the perc, and slingshot ammunition for media.

[AVR]

Can you mill KClO3 as well, or is that like russian roulette? I am talking of a mill-drum dedicated to mill KClO3. (sorry for OT)

[delta_echo]

Can you mill KClO3 as well, or is that like russian roulette? I am talking of a mill-drum dedicated to mill KClO3. (sorry for OT)

You should be fine. More important than even a jar untouched by sulfur and antimony (sensitizers for KCL03) are milling media that are free from the two chemicals. Just take a look at you chemical incompatibilities and you'll be good to go. Personally, I have ceramic media that I use solely for milling Chlorates and Perchlorates.

[Von Bass`]

Your rockets are far more beautiful than mine!

 

I have a problem, whenever I use pot. perch, the nozzle nearly always blasts out. I generally dont have this problem using BP.

 

My nozzles are hammered bentonite and are usually about 7mm long. The nozzles are usually 1/16th of an inch, but i have lately made 2 with 1/8 hole. This seems small, but the entire rocket is usally only bottle rocket sized - say 40 - 50 mm long. Do the nozzles need to be longer?

 

Thanks for any help

 

Edit: i forgot to include nozzle size.

[Mumbles]

The standard nozzel thickness is 1 ID of the tube. Another thing is to recess the nozzle back into the tube some. If the nozzel is flush with the end of the tube, it is more likely to blow out. Recessing it expands the tube around it, allowing it to "bite" harder. I don't make many whistle rockets, but all the commercial ones I've seen are nozzeless, so that may be your problem right there.

[Von Bass`]

Okay thanks for that. I will try recessing the nozzle a bit, and Ill try pressing one nozzleless rocket.

[keepkool79]

Whistle rockets do not have nozzles. Whistle fuel is far too powerful to use a nozzle. The only time you would use a nozzle with whistle fuel would be when making hybrid rockets. The whistle mix is cooled down with 10% fine charcoal. I fired a hybrid rocket today and boy those things go.

later,

[hashashan]

Hey, sorry for asking such a small question here but i think it is the best place for it.

I have a problem with whistle rockets, i want to make really small rockets about 1cm diameter(something like bottle rockets) I use Kpicrate/Knitrate mix in them. for some reason they don't take off. They scream really nicely but no lift. Anyone has an idea why?

anyone got good sizes for such small rockets?

my chems seem to be good and the formula also i use 70:30

[cplmac]

Couple of things, the rocket size you are describing sounds pretty close to a 4oz. rocket, maybe even a little smaller. Did your rocket have a core, that is to say a cavity in the center? Just about any rocket needs either a cavity down the center or a nozzle, and in the case of BP both. I can't speak to the power of a picrate whistle mix as I have no experience with an exotic formula like that. I do know that if there is no core, just a flat end burn, the whistle will be stellar.

[hashashan]

I did not have a core. I always thought that whislters are flat bottom. but ill try to make one with a core.

How long and thick should the core be in comparison to my 1 cm diameter?

and i did just powder pressing the chems in the rocket without any additiions like mineral oil and stuff. Is it ok?

[cplmac]

I did not have a core. I always thought that whislters are flat bottom. but ill try to make one with a core.

How long and thick should the core be in comparison to my 1 cm diameter?

and i did just powder pressing the chems in the rocket without any additiions like mineral oil and stuff. Is it ok?

For a 1cm rocket, your core should be between 3-4mm and maybe 5-10mm deep. You don't need mineral oil, or vaseline or anything else if you press it hard enough.

[cplmac]

DO NOT BUY the Domestic Perc from firecrotch. I got a bunch and just let me tell you,it sucks for whistle rockets. For example,I can place a kitty litter nozzle on my 1 pound LWS rockets (4.25" long core)and run straight whistle mix 76/23/1-2 and 64/32/1-2,and the rocket will no CATO. That is how crappy the stuff is.

If your going to do whistle rockets spend the money and buy good perc.

 

I can run a 1 pound long winded screemer rocket using straight 76/23/1-2 Salisalate, and Copperoxy chloride ,and no get a CATO using this crappy perc.

 

Chinese perc is okay,but not the best you can buy.

Are you sure it isn't your salicylate? I just got two pounds of absolute shit salicylate from skylighter and it is worthless.

[FrankRizzo]

Cpl,

 

Desiccate the salicylate in the oven @ 250 for a few hrs, and then run it through a coffee grinder and 200 mesh screen.

 

H&K,

 

There's nothing wrong with the purity of Firefox's domestic perc. I don't know why people think that when they buy the cheap material they can expect to use it straight out of the tub. You need to dry the stuff and then mill it for a few hrs with .5% cab-o-sil.

[cplmac]

Cpl,

 

Desiccate the salicylate in the oven @ 250 for a few hrs, and then run it through a coffee grinder and 200 mesh screen.

I did that Frank, I dried it for two hours at 200 degrees and then screened it. Same problem. I did get the chlorate whistle to fly in the strobe tooling which has a spindle twice as long as the whistle tooling. The chlorate whistle and the standard whistle would not fly with the whistle tooling. I'm out of options with it right now. Fortunately I have a shipment of Salicylate inbound as we speak, but all the same I'm not happy about dropping 30+ bucks on two pounds of crap. And I still have not gotten a response from Skylighter.

 

-Get Bret Weir I said

[FrankRizzo]

Well that sux man. I got a couple pounds last fall and was extremely disappointed too in the both the power and whistle volume of the first batch of whistle mix I made with it (76:23:1:2.5 Fe2O3 cat). I asked around on wreck.pyrotechnics and got the answer to make sure both my salicylate and perc were thoroughly dry and that the salicylate was as fine as possible before mixing up the fuel. If you saw the videos of my anemic strobe rockets in the thread listed below, that mix was absolute crap:

 

http://www.apcforum.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=109&hl=

 

After desiccating the salicylate and screening it through a 200 mesh screen (huge PITA and slooow), it works great. For my money though, potassium benzoate is where it's at. I can't stand giving Harry that much dough for a pound of salicylate.

[cplmac]

I've tried a couple of different ways of making benze whistle and I have to admit I'm surprised with its power and volume. I would switch to it outright but I know that the salicylate whistle can be made more powerful. The sally I used to get from firefox was in large containers and very freeflowing and fine. In fact it airfloated more than any other chem in my shop except cabosil. My perch is the same that I have been using for some time now so I know that is not the issue. This sally is strong enough to break shells with but I only make so many shells.

[cplmac]

I think if you wet mix your stuff together very well then no airfloat is not a big deal with perch, but the whistle fuel NEEDS to be as fine as possible, and is best if it has never been in brick form.

[crazyboy25]

I don’t usually make rockets (because so many things can go wrong) but recently I have been experimenting with whistle rockets. All the web sites I have seen on whistle rockets say you need special tooling and whatnot but on my third attempt with a 2 1/2” by 1/2" casing and good old 70:30 potassium perchlorate sodium benzoate whistle mix and a core about 1/2" to 1" deep I got lift off! I am suprised how easy they are even when everyone says they are really hard. Now I just got to work out the issue of legality and my dad (I didn't tell him it would fly 50 feet and into our neighbors yard)

 

just off the top of you head do you know if they are legal without a permit in southern california?

[Frozentech]

just off the top of you head do you know if they are legal without a permit in southern california?

Nothing you make yourself, without a manufacturing license, is legal in California.