Kitty Litter as nozzle mix?

[JMA375HH]

Fresh Steps is the way to get great nozzle and plugs, when I first looked at the box I thought that it was loaded with those sent crystals. But after opening the box, found a really nice smell and saw the darker clay were not those blue crystals but clay that they sprayed with sent and thats what darkens the color, tricking you in thinking its the wrong stuff. The combination of there spray perfume combined with the rest of the clay give it property's like no other brand out their.

 

Trust me, you will have to dump your other brand back in the cats box (probably needs it any way) and move your new box of fresh steps to the head of the table. I too make up mine by running what I need for awhile threw the coffee mill until I have a good variation on clay sizes. I had one rocket blow few days back but the plugs never moved, the motor blew from the center instead. And since that time and many more rockets zero blow outs.

 

Do yourself a favor and pick up a box you wont regret it one bit.

 

John

[DragonsKing]

I have a question that goes back to the kitty litter as a Nozzle mix. I am having trouble with blowing out my nozzel and i am positive that my nozzle hole is the size it should be. Ex. Earlier today, my cored BP rocket "Cato'd". the bulkhead blew out where the nozzle was before my tube blew out. I was only using lined paper too! It was a 1/2" ID tube, about 2 1/2" long with two strips of lined paper as the tube. I make them myself for tests and they work fun. Back to the question at hand. How can a make a stronger density of the kitty litter? Its 100% clay mix, bentonite. I grind it to a fine powder that fits through what would prolly be a 20 mesh screen then i compact it with a hammer. I rammed the hell out of the one earlier and it still blew out. I also made an end burner earlier to the same specs and it performed perfectly. I am having this "blowout" proplem with almost everything. Not every time, but a lot. Any suggestions?

[Seymour]

I had the same problem, and simply stopped grinding it at all. I started using the kitty litter as it comes, as large grains. They compact fine, and I suspect that the edges dig in to the tube when they are being crushed, gripping the tube well.

 

Of course, there are many variabnles which could be at play, but I definitely think it is worth not grinding it up, or adding grog to the fine powder to grip the tube.

[Eric70]

Just when you thought this thread was dead...LOL.

 

I have been busy this summer installing ceramic tile. Each time I emptied the water tray from the tile cutter I would let it sit over night and the next day there was clay powder to bag up. I collected over one pound of it. This tile cutter has the 7" blade.

 

Made a batch of nozzle mix with this stuff, 2/3 bentonite clay (cat litter), 1/3 ceramic clay (tile) and wax. Tested it this past weekend, this nozzle mix held up fine on the 1# and 3# BP coreburners. I was worried about the mix being too fine but I kept some courseness to the cat litter this time around.

[aftertheaftershock]

I have a question that goes back to the kitty litter as a Nozzle mix. I am having trouble with blowing out my nozzel and i am positive that my nozzle hole is the size it should be. Ex. Earlier today, my cored BP rocket "Cato'd". the bulkhead blew out where the nozzle was before my tube blew out. I was only using lined paper too! It was a 1/2" ID tube, about 2 1/2" long with two strips of lined paper as the tube. I make them myself for tests and they work fun. Back to the question at hand. How can a make a stronger density of the kitty litter? Its 100% clay mix, bentonite. I grind it to a fine powder that fits through what would prolly be a 20 mesh screen then i compact it with a hammer. I rammed the hell out of the one earlier and it still blew out. I also made an end burner earlier to the same specs and it performed perfectly. I am having this "blowout" proplem with almost everything. Not every time, but a lot. Any suggestions?

 

 

I personally would never use lined paper I only use heavyduty kraft paper I forget the exact specs on the paper but I use the rougher side of it and have never had one cato in so long I can barley remeber the last time it happened... Or maybe i just have expirimented enough with my 4oz rockets

[dagabu]

File folders, paper grocery bags, any long fiber will allow for compression without tearing would work better then writing paper.

[Eric70]

File folders, paper grocery bags, any long fiber will allow for compression without tearing would work better then writing paper.

 

 

Ditto and if still problems with blow-outs one should consider that their fuel may be too fast and needs less KNO3 or more charcoal.

 

My 3# BP coreburners were blowing out nozzles approximately 1/3 of the time, when they worked they sure zipped up into the sky but it was like they were redlined, fun but unreliable. I backed-off the KN03 by 2 oz and have not had any problems since. These rockets still get up and get going. On the next batch of fuel I might increase the KNO3 up 1 oz and see what happens but I am done experimenting for now. Time to move on to headers.

[dagabu]

Eric, My first headers were comets stuffed into the end of the tube. Very amateur I am sure but I could track the rocket then. I moved on to Mexican style headings where just a few turns of kraft paper glued on to the end of the tube made a crude bag and filled it with red parlon stars (cut stars are easy) and then finally settled on timing inserts.

 

Good luck and come up and join the NLP one day, I need more rocket guys in my corner!

[Zapperworld]

I came across this youtube video https://youtu.be/12fR9neVnS8and saw a little more than just a rocket to it. So I was wondering if anyone knew how to make it into a firework rocket. I'm just starting in the pyrotechnic field and all I can think of is adding a delay timer, leading to black powder, and then leading to some pyrotechnic/ firework stars to make a nice explosion. Any tips on what else to add to it (I'm really new to this and need some advice). Thanks in advance.

Edited May 7, 2015 by Zapperworld

[MrB]

You make it into a firework, the same way you make any firework... Add a ejection charge (burst) and balls of pyrotechnic compounds that gives of colors as they burn (stars)

 

Now... This is NOT the proper place for this conversation, you need to start a new thread. However, i will say as much. I like the King of Random, and he's generally quite entertaining. But this clip isn't one of those. You shouldn't use PVC for a number of reasons. Once being plastic is quite hard to find on x-ray scans, so if / when one of your rockets explode on the stand, the plastic shrapnel might be with you for the rest of your life. If your lucky enough to have much of that left after the event, that is.

I still carry plastic around inside my body for the same reason, even if it ended up in there a slightly different way.

 

Stay safe.

B!

[HalfLife]

As far as nozzles go, I am also employing the cheap kitty litter method to some effect. I have recently acquired 2 cases of Vulcan rocket motors ( 1" I.D. x 5" tall) and these motors employ the use of a metal casing about 4" tall that is then wrapped in a 5" paper tube. Once the paper is removed you can see that it does not have a traditional nozzle but uses a small 1/8" hole drilled into the center of the bottom for the nozzle. Its basically a thin walled metal tube, probably aluminum, that has a solid bottom with a hole. These motors are amazing, they can easily lift 400g of effect up to at least 200 feet. If you are having CATO problems then this might be a good alternative to explore. The whole motor weighs 100g on average and when the paper is removed it weighs on average 82.3g so I assumed that the casing weighed somewhere around 15g so that basically leaves somewhere around 67.3g for fuel.

[mikeee]

I tried using Cat Litter for making rocket nozzles but kept getting scratched, and Pita threatened to have me arrested.

 

 

 

 

No kittens were harmed in the creation of this humor.

[MrB]

Good thing you didn't say PETA was trying to get you arrested, like they should care, they kill more pets then anyone else in the states, from what i hear. Something they aren't as wquick to tell the people donating money to them.

 

Anyway, don't underestimate kittens. Once we figure out how to power our rockets with kittens, there is no end to how high they would go, or how heavy loads they could lift. And to top it of, you could shoot the same engine 9 times before it's used up.

B!

[ddewees]

It will always land on its feet too!

[FlaMtnBkr]

And taste like chicken!

[StevenRS11]

So, first post!

 

I recently picked back up an old pyro hobby, generally making rockets. One issue I always had was with nozzles. Mine would blow out sometimes, and erosion was often an issue with small nozzles, longer burn times, and high pressure. Hence, I began a search for the ultimate rammable/pressable rocket nozzle mix. Still not there, mind you, but I have had some very encouraging results!

 

First, I found that adding any volatiles like wax or mineral oil to the mix drastically increases erosion, I imagine because it gassifies as it heats, creating voids and possibly mechanically blowing off bits in the throat.

 

Second, I found that adding any large refractory 'chunks' (grog, crushed clay pots) defintly prevented nozzle blow outs, it had a few negative effects. It seemed to randomly in some tests increase erosion signifigantly, and often lead to off center thrust. I imagine this is because the softer medium of the nozzle preferentially erodes around the shards, leading to a shard sticking out into the throat which may either create a turbulent 'eddy' behind it, increasing erosion, or possibly fall out in one peice, creating a hole. While I may just be speculating as to why grog seems to increase erosion, it definitly does seem to happen at times. Its a very much all-or-nothing type effect too, leading me to think that its fine unless a chunk falls out. The effects seem to reduce as the particle size of the grog is reduced, though. Using anything larger than ~40 mesh seems to be a bad thing.

 

This is the mix that I am using now, and seems to perform very, very well, especially with regards to erosion.

 

100 bentonite clay (Kitty litter can contain sand, and oil-dri definitly does. Reduce added sand until it presses well.)

30 alumimum oxide powder, 150 grit abrasive

20 white playground sand

5 graphite

 

Why does this work? Several things, I think. After firing, these nozzles exibit a pretty consistent 5% erosion, regardless of burn time. The inside of the nozzle is heavily vitrified, and very smooth. I think what is happening is that the silicon dioxide begins to melt on the surface of the throat, and as it does, begins to dissolve some of the aluminim oxide. At first, this lowers the melting point of the molten oxide mixture due to a eutetic effect. This coats the inside of the nozzle, but as more is formed, two things happen. The molten oxide mix picks up more and more particulates in the form of bentonite, which creates a high viscosity shear thickening fluid that resists further flow. It also continues to dissolve more alumina, but as the proportion of aluminum increases, the melting point beings to rapidly increase, with diffusion of hot alumina into the now barely molten mix hardening it into a solid glaze.

 

I will post pictures of nozzles post firing to show this effect, and various samples of rammed mix after exposure to a torch for extended time. The formation of a molten glaze and subsequent solidification is clearly visible when heating with a torch.

 

As for the graphite, it seems to actually help prevent nozzle blowout. I notice that nozzles pressed or rammed with graphite present tend to bulge the paper tube out more, making me think that the graphite allows the mix when under pressure to behave a bit more like a fluid, pressing outward against the tube more and less just transfering the force straight down into the mandrel.

 

Anyway, Ill follow up with a few more details and pictures, but I encourage you to try this out and see what you think! It seems most everyone uses straight up bentonite clay, which is like just using portland cement and no aggregate- sure, it hardens fine, but the strength of concrete comes more from the rocks and sand in it, not from just the porland cement. Its reallly just a binder.

Edited July 14, 2015 by StevenRS11

[oldspark]

I just use bent. clay with 5% mineral oil and have never had a nozzle blow out.

[NotBadAtAllToBeHonest]

I have used cat litter for years now. Seems to work perfect for a beginner such as myself but unfortunately I have been getting some plug blow outs. Probably due my DIY rocket tooling that I made. Can anyone advise me on what else go use for a rocket tube, cardboard ones in my opinion aren't actually that expensive but I have metres of what seems to be blue 1 inch diameter water pipe spare which has no use. Could I use this instead? Im using one hour milled BP if that helps. Sorry if I am a bit "noob" sounding, but I do want to improve my rockets safely and thought this should be the place. Edited July 14, 2015 by NotBadAtAllToBeHonest

[pyrokid]

Excellent write up Steven! I enjoyed reading your hypotheses!

 

I have used cat litter for years now. Seems to work perfect for a beginner such as myself but unfortunately I have been getting some plug blow outs. Probably due my DIY rocket tooling that I made. Can anyone advise me on what else go use for a rocket tube, cardboard ones in my opinion aren't actually that expensive but I have metres of what seems to be blue 1 inch diameter water pipe spare which has no use. Could I use this instead? Im using one hour milled BP if that helps. Sorry if I am a bit "noob" sounding, but I do want to improve my rockets safely and thought this should be the place.

Pyro rockets should use paper and only paper.

[ddewees]

Sounds neat Steven... More data or pictures would be nice. Your nozzles are going to cost more than kitty litter ones, so convincing people to switch might be difficult. Especially for people who think their rockets work perfectly already, and don't like to experiment.

 

I'd try it, but don't really use any of those items for anything else... I'm eager to see your results.

 

A thrust stand comparison would be great to see too.

[coogan1997]

I just use bent. clay with 5% mineral oil and have never had a nozzle blow out.

How do you incorporate the oil into the clay?

Edited July 20, 2015 by coogan1997

[ddewees]

Just add it directly and mix it up. WD40 works pretty good too, and is easily applied. Personally, I don't see the need or value of adding oil to the mix (I used to do it, but noticed some crumbling over time).

 

Below (all the same sized scoop)

 

With oil/without oil/powdered bentonite

http://i1149.photobucket.com/albums/o588/SaltLakeAreaPyros/Screenshot_2015-04-09-16-51-08_zps9rttrjzb.png

[oldspark]

How do you incorporate the oil into the clay?

I just mix it in with a gloved hand, I tried using lacquer thinner mixed with the min. oil but it did not work for me. Takes a little time but it will mix in, I have recovered some of my spent rockets and the nozzle holds up well plus I think the min. oil helps to keep moisture from affecting the nozzle.

[ddewees]

How do you explain crumbling nozzles that have been stored? This only happened to the ones that had oil added...

 

Oldspark, why do you do it? Have you ever tried making them without using any additives (wax, oil, etc)?

[oldspark]

How do you explain crumbling nozzles that have been stored? This only happened to the ones that had oil added...

 

Oldspark, why do you do it? Have you ever tried making them without using any additives (wax, oil, etc)?

Never had any crumbling nozzles so I cant explain it, how long were they stored?

The clay packs very well with the oil in it and never had a nozzle blow out and they hold up well (spent rocket).

I dont honestly remember if I used clay with no oil when I started making rockets or not, why fix something that works.

I can give it a try if you really want me too but I have no interest, I do want to know how long your rockets were stored before the crumbling started.

Edited July 20, 2015 by oldspark