Gottagotomoz Posted August 12, 2007 Posted August 12, 2007 Recently, I have been looking for bentonite clay for my nozzles. I couldn't seem to find any at my local art stores. I looked up Kitty-litter (I read some use this), and found out that it is actually made up of bentonite clay. So I proceeded to ball mill some until it was somewhat finely powdered. Has anyone ever used this for making nozzles? Have you experienced problems? (blowouts etc.) I would be more than happy to test it out, however I have not yet recieved my order of tubes and tooling.
gods knight Posted August 12, 2007 Posted August 12, 2007 I have used it before and for me it works reasonably well,blowouts usually occur when its not rammed properly,or the powder burns too fast. I would reccomend it as it is the cheapest source of nozzle powder,due to the fact that it can take the heat but I wouldn't depend on it too much.
al93535 Posted August 12, 2007 Posted August 12, 2007 Heh, I have tried lots of clays and kitty litters. I must say, that even over pure bentonite clay made for pyro purposes I prefer kitty litter. Not just any kitty litter mind you, cheap shit crumbles when you try to drill it. What you want is Fresh Step scoopable kitty litter. It has to be the scoopable kind. This makes plugs, and nozzles like no other material I have ever used. It makes an easily pressable, very hard, and easy to drill plug. Do NOT make a super fine powder either, this stuff can be used right out of the box. However, I prefer to run it through a coffee grinder one time to reduce the particle size a little bit. If you use Fresh Step, you will never try anything else! 1
Gottagotomoz Posted August 12, 2007 Author Posted August 12, 2007 Heh, I have tried lots of clays and kitty litters. I must say, that even over pure bentonite clay made for pyro purposes I prefer kitty litter. Not just any kitty litter mind you, cheap shit crumbles when you try to drill it. What you want is Fresh Step scoopable kitty litter. It has to be the scoopable kind. This makes plugs, and nozzles like no other material I have ever used. It makes an easily pressable, very hard, and easy to drill plug. Do NOT make a super fine powder either, this stuff can be used right out of the box. However, I prefer to run it through a coffee grinder one time to reduce the particle size a little bit. If you use Fresh Step, you will never try anything else! Is this the Kitty litter you're referring to?Kitty Litter
gods knight Posted August 13, 2007 Posted August 13, 2007 Ive seen that kitty litter at Walmart plenty of times,pet section, and they sell it for a very reasonable price.(not scented). Can you use epoxy resin as a rocket nozzle, they sell it at a hobby store and its made to hold broken engine parts for rc planes,I figured maybe if I mixed it with a little kitty litter it would make a stronger nozzle. Due to the fact that those engine parts can heat up extremely rapidly and become very hot, I think it can hold up, for a few seconds.
al93535 Posted August 13, 2007 Posted August 13, 2007 Gottagotomoz, thats the stuff.. Ok here are pictures that prove regular fresh step is the best shit... http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v242/al9...rent=nozzle.jpg http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v242/al9...nt=rocketin.jpg http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v242/al9...t=rocketin2.jpg http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v242/al9...urrent=pic1.jpg This one was a very catostrophic cato and the nozzle was fine http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v242/al9...urrent=cato.jpg I also use fresh step as the nozzles and plugs on my Strontium nitrate and -325 mesh magnalium rockets. Now thats some VERY hot comp and the nozzles are just fine. There is always some erosion, but there really is so little with this stuff. As you can see with the pictures, if you could just reload the fuel, you could fly these rockets again! If you guys wanna keep searching for a "better" nozzle mix, be my guest, and have fun with the extra work. By the way, the first two pictures are my home rolled tubes I however now buy all my tubes, or get them from work to save extra steps
Gottagotomoz Posted August 13, 2007 Author Posted August 13, 2007 Wow, they do seem rock hard. I'll have to pick some up tomorrow. Do you know if they sell them in smaller quantities because I can only find 14lb's min.
frogy Posted August 13, 2007 Posted August 13, 2007 Heh, I have tried lots of clays and kitty litters. I must say, that even over pure bentonite clay made for pyro purposes I prefer kitty litter. Not just any kitty litter mind you, cheap shit crumbles when you try to drill it. What you want is Fresh Step scoopable kitty litter. It has to be the scoopable kind. This makes plugs, and nozzles like no other material I have ever used. It makes an easily pressable, very hard, and easy to drill plug. Do NOT make a super fine powder either, this stuff can be used right out of the box. However, I prefer to run it through a coffee grinder one time to reduce the particle size a little bit. If you use Fresh Step, you will never try anything else!Lol I can't stop laughing... Thats 100% exactly how I feel too... I have used the same stuff for all my rockets other than some bentonite I tested... I love Fresh Step!!! #1. It works good...#2. It smells good...#3. It's cheap (especially if stolen from the cats ) The only things I've used that are comparable are bentonite with (kyanite|grog) PS: I have had some blow outs... But thats completely my fault... Things like 8 hour BP rocket as a core burner... hell it would probably blow out a steel nozzle... It basically just blew up... The funny thing is I found the nozzle and it was intact, but not in the case...
h&k machineguns Posted August 13, 2007 Posted August 13, 2007 I had bought Benite clay form Skylighter 3 years ago to build BP rockets. I used it for a while, but had heard of the kitty litter thing, and since I have 3 cats I figured I'd try it out. we used to use the cheapest kitty litter they made at WalMart ( Red package ) and let me tell you that stuff works just as good if not better than Benite clay does. The Benite clay looks a little cleaner than the kitty litter ( Non grinded up ), but the kitty litter is much harder. For the past year we have been using a really expensive scoopable litter for the rug rats, and after this discussion I am thinking for Shits and giggles to try it out on a rocket. I had never though of using anything else, and since I had scooped out 2 pounds of the stuff 3 years ago I have never ran out . I have used the kitty litter on even Whistle rockets (64/32/1-3). Yes I have used nozzles in my whistle rockets, but it only works with the weaker mix (64/32/1-3) and not 76/23/1-3 which is the hottest whistle fuel you can mix.For nozzles I have heard of guys taking old red pots and hammering them up and grinding up the pots and pressing that stuff. Apparently it works the best. I have never needed to try it since the litter works so well. As a side not my kitty litter, and Benite nozzles are always pressed between 7,000 PSI and 8,000 PSI in NEPT tubing.
frogy Posted August 13, 2007 Posted August 13, 2007 Ohh and for the earlier question... I have saw small 1 lb. bags of kitty litter in Wal-Mart and such, but it wasn't Fresh step... Most all kitty liter thats is "clumping" or clumps when wet (about 80% of all kitty litter) should work fine... And yes, kitty litter doesn't look as pretty as bentonite... Lol Kitty litter looks pretty much the same as bentonite that is mixed 50:50 with grog... and pretty much holds up the same way... So if you don't have cats, just go ahead and but a pound of Bentonite and a pound of grog\kyanite...
Gottagotomoz Posted August 13, 2007 Author Posted August 13, 2007 Wait, you wet the kitty litter when you're making nozzles? Won't that cause too much expansion, possibly cracking your casing, causing the rocket to CATO?
Jason Posted August 13, 2007 Posted August 13, 2007 He's not wetting the kitty litter, just saying it clumps when wet.
Wyvern Posted August 13, 2007 Posted August 13, 2007 I have found the best nozzles i have ever made were from a 1:1 mix of bentonite clay powder and molochite which gives it exeptional thermal resistance and because of the sharp particle shape also makes them incredibly hard.
Jason Posted August 13, 2007 Posted August 13, 2007 Just realised I have a question: Does the fresh step crumble if you drill into it, like for rocket headers, or end burners?
Gottagotomoz Posted August 13, 2007 Author Posted August 13, 2007 I picked up a 14lb case of Fresh Step today, for $8. I haven't really checked it out yet, but I plan to later today.
FrankRizzo Posted August 13, 2007 Posted August 13, 2007 I use the cheap Special Kitty brand kitty litter from WalMart and I've never had problems with significant erosion if the nozzle is pressed at a reasonable pressure. A small squirt of graphite mixed with the clay granules helps considerably with removing the nozzle ram after the first pressing as well.
al93535 Posted August 14, 2007 Posted August 14, 2007 I have tried three cheap kitty litters, they all fall miserably short of fresh step. Get fresh step and try it. Fresh step REALLY excels when you drill into it, it does NOT flake or crumble in any way at all. The cheap (even special kitty) litters sucked bad on this point.
Jason Posted August 14, 2007 Posted August 14, 2007 Awesome, thanks. I hate when I drill into kitty litter and it crumbles.
cplmac Posted August 14, 2007 Posted August 14, 2007 This is a real coincidence, just yesterday I rammed seven endburn motors and every single one of them blew the nozzle out. Does the fresh step hold the motor walls better than bentonite? If I pressed these motors it would probably be a non-issue but ramming saves so much time it's hard to justify pressing. Maybe just press the nozzle.
Gottagotomoz Posted August 15, 2007 Author Posted August 15, 2007 So I picked up some Fresh Step yesterday, and I rammed a few nozzles just to test them out. I ran some through my coffee grinder just so it would be a little finer than "coarse" powder. I couldn't believe how hard they were. When I finally got one out, (which took a lot of work) the nozzle was still in tact. I'm definatley sticking with this. So thank's for the recommendation of Fresh Step. They make incredible nozzles. And no, they don't crumble.
frogy Posted August 15, 2007 Posted August 15, 2007 I don't press my Fresh Step nozzles Cplmac and they never crumble... It's amazing... When I drill into the nozzle I can actually see circles where the drill went in... Fresh Step nozzles are so damn hard I bet you could tap them... And whoever said a 1:1 mix of bentonite:molochite... I pretty much mentioned earlier that's the only thing comparable to fresh step... molochite = grog pretty much... Bentonite w\ kyanite also works decently... But I'm sticking with my Fresh step... for like $10 I got a 25 lb. tub of it lol...
psyco_1322 Posted August 16, 2007 Posted August 16, 2007 Just put in some graphite with the kitty litter and use it. Trust me! It will work! Was hanging with some guys at the PGI convention that used it just like that for their rockets and they never had a problem with blow outs or anything. It was working fine with 2 & 3lb. whistle hybrids and strobes.
hst45 Posted August 18, 2007 Posted August 18, 2007 fresh step is the best shit...al93535, thank's for another great tip! Being a cheap bastard I've always used the lowest price store brand litter for the cat box. I've stolen a pinch or two to press a test nozzle and the results have been so-so compared to my bentonite/grog nozzles (grog made from crushed and ball milled clay flowerpots). On your advice, last Wednesday I bought a gallon of fresh step and rammed a couple of 4oz. rockets, and the results were great. I usually ram one tablespoon of clay/grog at a time for a core burner nozzle. With the first attempt at a fresh step nozzle I noticed a bit of loose material the the bottom of the motor. Next motor I rammed the nozzle half a tablespoon at a time. That made a solid base to the nozzle. Even the first motor, with rather crappy consolidation of the nozzle, didn't blow out. Neither nozzle showed any sign of significant erosion.
frogy Posted August 18, 2007 Posted August 18, 2007 I see al's looking at this now, so probably a reply from him coming... But just saying again... I wouldn't use anything but Fresh Step... It's cheap... I see Bentonite for like $3 a pound or $7.50 for 5 pounds... and grog is like $1 a pound... That adds up to $2/$1.25 a pound.... vs. Fresh Step which I get 25 lb. for like $14 ($0.56 a pound) and same if not better results...
pudidotdk Posted August 18, 2007 Posted August 18, 2007 Man, all this fresh step talk makes me want some. Too bad it's a looong distance away... Have to stick to my crumbly kitty litter and fire clay then
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