making potassium (per) chlorate

[WSM]

Is there anyone who sells MMO mesh plates with the proper connection spot welded like the picture on this thread? I do not have a spot welder so even if I managed to get some MMO plate I would have no way of joining them...

I've read about using Pt wires and simply soldering the copper (or brazing, whatever) to the Pt, then seal the connection in a glass tube using a torch. However Pt wires are way too expensive.

I searched for laserred on ebay and all he has is a bunch of brass rods.

 

The listings of laserred change continuously. Keep checking and occasionaly the MMO mesh shows up. Order quickly because the material sells fast. His MMO on CP titanium is surplus material that is very low cost compared to other dealers in titanium or titanium products.

 

I have had excellent results using his anode material with CP titanium cathodes.

 

WSM

[WSM]

Is there anyone who sells MMO mesh plates with the proper connection spot welded like the picture on this thread? I do not have a spot welder so even if I managed to get some MMO plate I would have no way of joining them...

I've read about using Pt wires and simply soldering the copper (or brazing, whatever) to the Pt, then seal the connection in a glass tube using a torch. However Pt wires are way too expensive.

I searched for laserred on ebay and all he has is a bunch of brass rods.

 

I forgot to mention, Yes there is. Swede makes and sells complete anodes with lead (pronounced leed, not Pb) straps. If you press him, he may even make them with a filled tubular titanium lead you can seal in a compression fitting so the copper electrical connections are protected from the cell liquids and salt creep. He will list them on the Agora soon in the future. Stay tuned...

 

WSM

[frank]

Hi All,

 

Not to derail this thread BUT:

 

A gripe that I have with quite a few threads, discussions, videos etc is the use of the term (Per)Chlorate.

 

I have used this term myself on many occasions so I am equally as guilty as all those I am complaining about.

What does the term "(Per)Chlorate" mean to YOU.

 

For myself it was a term to describe a cell which was started from chloride and was going to go all the way to

perchlorate without stopping (lead dioxide or perhaps Pt anode (if you don't mind the wear)). The cell is

a chlorate cell at the beginning, a Perchlorate cell at the end and

(dare I say) a (Per)Chlorate cell somewhere in the middle. Thats how the term (Per)Chlorate was understood

by myself.

This term is used everywhere and anywhere where it causing confusion to newcomers (and perhaps old timers

too).

 

When someone states that have set up a (Per)Chlorate cell, what do they mean EXACTLY?

 

Is it a chlorate cell?

Is it a cell that is starting with chloride (a chlorate cell at the moment) that is going to run all

the way to a Perchlorate cell at the end and have little or no chlorate (or chloride) left?

Have they set up a Perchlorate cell (dissolved Chlorate in water and started to run (no chloride)?

 

Normal MMO only makes (for us) Chlorate. When I say 'normal' I mean two types:

MMO that has (mainly) Ru Oxide on it (used by industry for Chlorate, it cannot be used to make Perchlorate*)

or

MMO that has (mainly) Ir Oxide on it used for corrosion protection applications, or situations where there is very

low Chloride (swimming pools). LaserRed (it is believed) sells this latter stuff. It is a more black colour than the

Ru Oxide based stuff. It is great for making Chlorate, it will not make Perchlorate*.

 

 

BAN THE TERM "(Per)Chlorate"!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Change the name of this thread?

 

I believe way back at the start of the last century the Term (Per)Chlorate was used to refer to Perchlorate (more potential

confusion).

 

 

 

* in any fashion that could be described as sensible for actually obtaining usable quantities of the stuff.

 

Frank

[WSM]

Hi All,

Not to derail this thread BUT:

A gripe that I have with quite a few threads, discussions, videos etc is the use of the term (Per)Chlorate.

I have used this term myself on many occasions so I am equally as guilty as all those I am complaining about.

What does the term "(Per)Chlorate" mean to YOU.

For myself it was a term to describe a cell which was started from chloride and was going to go all the way to

perchlorate without stopping (lead dioxide or perhaps Pt anode (if you don't mind the wear)). The cell is

a chlorate cell at the beginning, a Perchlorate cell at the end and

(dare I say) a (Per)Chlorate cell somewhere in the middle. Thats how the term (Per)Chlorate was understood

by myself.

This term is used everywhere and anywhere where it causing confusion to newcomers (and perhaps old timers

too).

When someone states that have set up a (Per)Chlorate cell, what do they mean EXACTLY?

Is it a chlorate cell?

Is it a cell that is starting with chloride (a chlorate cell at the moment) that is going to run all

the way to a Perchlorate cell at the end and have little or no chlorate (or chloride) left?

Have they set up a Perchlorate cell (dissolved Chlorate in water and started to run (no chloride)?

Normal MMO only makes (for us) Chlorate. When I say 'normal' I mean two types:

MMO that has (mainly) Ru Oxide on it (used by industry for Chlorate, it cannot be used to make Perchlorate*)

or

MMO that has (mainly) Ir Oxide on it used for corrosion protection applications, or situations where there is very

low Chloride (swimming pools). LaserRed (it is believed) sells this latter stuff. It is a more black colour than the

Ru Oxide based stuff. It is great for making Chlorate, it will not make Perchlorate*.

BAN THE TERM "(Per)Chlorate"!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Change the name of this thread?

I believe way back at the start of the last century the Term (Per)Chlorate was used to refer to Perchlorate (more potential

confusion).

* in any fashion that could be described as sensible for actually obtaining usable quantities of the stuff.

Frank

 

Hi Frank,

 

I always thought it meant chlorate and/or perchlorate. I never got excited about it, but I tend to agree with your sentiment.

 

I vote we change the name of this thread to "making potassium chlorate", and just drop the "(per)". I won't differentiate between potassium chlorate and sodium chlorate, but perchlorates are a whole other matter (and a thread is already started specifically for that subject).

 

Whether any action is taken on this or not, doesn't really matter. The postings here are very helpful as they are, regardless of the confusing (?) name.

 

My two cents...

 

WSM

Edited September 25, 2012 by WSM

[ANFO]

Quite a good paper on electrode oxygen evolution and perchlorate evolution in different conditions, just thought I'd post it: http://db.tt/fV20pDaP

[WSM]

Quite a good paper on electrode oxygen evolution and perchlorate evolution in different conditions, just thought I'd post it: http://db.tt/fV20pDaP

 

I just read this paper and it appears to have useful data regarding the oxidation of chlorate to perchlorate in different cells (Pt and PbO₂) and under various conditions (with and without additives). I believe this information will prove useful in our studies.

 

Thank you for sharing it.

 

WSM

[ANFO]

Attention people looking for MMO: laserred has MMO back in stock! (6 days left, 8 dollars a piece).

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/EXPANDED-TITANIUM-MESH-STRETCHED-SCREEN-MMO-COATING-/261104721226?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3ccb0ddd4a

 

I just received my MMO plate from laserred and it is very good stuff, highly recommended.

[taiwanluthiers]

Thanks, I just bought one.

 

Even if its only good for chlorates, well I'll see if I can work with it.

[WSM]

Thanks, I just bought one.

Even if its only good for chlorates, well I'll see if I can work with it.

 

I'm grateful I learned about MMO.

 

Until I tried a cell with an MMO/Ti anode and a titanium cathode (over five years ago) I didn't know it could be done cleanly! In fact, an advanced friend of mine who was running a working continuous KClO₃ system using graphite and stainless steel, successfully; converted over after he saw a three second video I sent him of my running one-gallon pickle jar cell with MMO and titanium electrodes (the fact that he had just completed the monthly change of his system's filter and replacement of the graphite rod, didn't influence him too much ). His comment was something like, "I guess I better switch [to MMO]"!

 

His chlorate yields have had a marked increase as well (10-20% actually). You'll like MMO anodes for chlorate production. See if you can get CP titanium plate or sheet metal for your cathodes; they work well.

 

WSM

[taiwanluthiers]

I really would prefer making perchlorates but have no idea where to get lead dioxide anodes. I can't do much with chlorates given how sensitive they are... but I don't know, maybe I can try using chlorates more for reds and greens as well by using carbonates as a coloring agent... it would have to be organically fueled for safety though.

[patsroom]

@

I really would prefer making perchlorates but have no idea where to get lead dioxide anodes..

I was able to buy Lead dioxide anodes, but it costed. I tried to sell a few of them but it turned out that they made a black mess of the per chlorate. Once I found that out I quit selling them. Is it possible to find someone to sell them? I do not know, unless you want to buy a large quantity of them. Then If the quaity of them being any good is the question that you will have to find out.

Maybe if they were soaked in linseed oil it would help them, I don't know. So just finding someone to sell you one or two I think for the time being - No, not going to happen for awhile if you want good ones......Pat

Edited September 29, 2012 by patsroom

[athlon]

Anybody willing to ship some potassium chloride to me? Seems to be impossible to get my hands on pure, I've been making chlorate with table salt containing 69% KCl and 30% NaCl, but it's getting pretty expensive at $3 per 300 grams...

[WSM]

Anybody willing to ship some potassium chloride to me? Seems to be impossible to get my hands on pure, I've been making chlorate with table salt containing 69% KCl and 30% NaCl, but it's getting pretty expensive at $3 per 300 grams...

 

??? Ship it where???

 

WSM

[athlon]

??? Ship it where???

 

WSM

 

Oh, not that far...just halfway around the globe!

 

Hmm, not a bit jealous of you guys having easy access to all chems!!!

We do actually have a webshop for buying pyro stuff, but it's so overpriced it's ridiculous.

[pdfbq]

Athlon: What did they tell you when you gave them a call in Goteburg?

http://www.kali-gmbh.com/uken/fertiliser/sales.html

Edited October 6, 2012 by pdfbq

[athlon]

Athlon: What did they tell you when you gave them a call in Goteburg?

http://www.kali-gmbh...iser/sales.html

 

Can't remember that I have contacted them...have I said that somewhere? Could be worth calling them though.

[Arthur]

Potassium salts are used in the agriculture/horticulture sectors and some in fair purity. Sodium chloride is used in domestic water softeners so comes easily available in big sacks cheaply. .

[pdfbq]

Can't remember that I have contacted them...have I said that somewhere? Could be worth calling them though.

No, you were whining in the bucket cell about getting KCl in a country starting with an S, and got response.

Apparently you did not do anything with it.

[Swede]

I use the term (per)chlorates when the processes or methodologies apply to both, as they do most of the time. For example, a cell that can make chlorate can make perchlorate as well, given a change of electrolyte perhaps, or an anode swap. So to me, it is a (per)chlorate cell, (per)chlorate implies commonality of function and design.

 

If we limit our talk and postings to chlorate, it may give new guys the notion that ONLY chlorate can be made via electrolysis. They may blow it off because they don't like chlorate.

 

I really don't know how else we should describe it, Anyone who has done the basic study will understand that if I'm talking about a cell with a Pt anode, fed with a chlorate salt, my goal is perchlorate. Likewise, starting with a chloride, using surplus MMO, the goal is chlorate.

 

I used to dream about loading a cell with chloride and driving it to 99% perchlorate, but we've found that (at the hobby level, at least) it's going to be impractical. And as far as lead dioxide anodes, I'm glad I didn't buy any of the chinese jobs, because it's already been tried, with poor results. Somewhere in the hobby future is an anode that doesn't have a speck of Pt in it, that will make clean perchlorate, just like we do with MMO and chlorate.

 

It was only a few years back that we were suspending graphite rods from D-cell batteries in a pickle jar and gathering 125 grams of dirty chlorate after 4 weeks of operation. We've come a long way in a short time. I think this can be continued. Remember the mantra - 'It's the journey, not the destination." For the money many of us have spent pursuing this, we'd all have multiple fiber drums of perchlorate stashed away! Kind of like black powder. Goex costs $20 per pound at a gun store. Much more fun and satisfying rolling your own.

[frank]

Quote:

"

i have synthesized chlorate (per) chlorate, and mmo are the only long term plates. they are completely invulnerable to the reaction and sides reactions. Just as a test with a milligram scale i weight the electrodes for a cell, i ran that cell to 2 years at 50 amps switching out electrolyte every 2 weeks. then i cleaned the plates with 15% hcl and the total loss was 0.01 milligrams witch could have been weighing error. so they will last for ever and never contaminate you product. hope this helps if you guys need more info on the detailed synthesis just pm me. A lot of people who talk about it have never tried it or it is there first time i have done many synthesizes of chlorate and (per) chlorate. since i live in the USA i just buy mine now. i t cost more but takes less time, but the end product is the same 99.9% pure perc. if i need just chlorate i still make my own as i almost never need it. "

 

 

 

Every now and then a statement as above appears and it perpetuates the fiction that you can make Perchlorate (in a sensible, useful manner) using Ru or Ir based MMO (the MMO we all have and use).

UTUBE has many kewl videos showing guys 'making' Perchlorate (usually described as (Per)Chlorate) by using MMO.

It just that the term seems to lead to a whole lot of muddle, fuddly and confusion (amongst the kewls). Its fine when you know what you are taking about and you can simply ignore what needs to be ignored.

 

Frank

[athlon]

No, you were whining in the bucket cell about getting KCl in a country starting with an S, and got response.

Apparently you did not do anything with it.

 

Whining? Did not see that response...guess I was too drunk to remember writing in that thread. Have you ordered from them?

[WSM]

I use the term (per)chlorates when the processes or methodologies apply to both, as they do most of the time. For example, a cell that can make chlorate can make perchlorate as well, given a change of electrolyte perhaps, or an anode swap. So to me, it is a (per)chlorate cell, (per)chlorate implies commonality of function and design.

 

If we limit our talk and postings to chlorate, it may give new guys the notion that ONLY chlorate can be made via electrolysis. They may blow it off because they don't like chlorate.

 

I really don't know how else we should describe it, Anyone who has done the basic study will understand that if I'm talking about a cell with a Pt anode, fed with a chlorate salt, my goal is perchlorate. Likewise, starting with a chloride, using surplus MMO, the goal is chlorate.

 

I used to dream about loading a cell with chloride and driving it to 99% perchlorate, but we've found that (at the hobby level, at least) it's going to be impractical. And as far as lead dioxide anodes, I'm glad I didn't buy any of the chinese jobs, because it's already been tried, with poor results. Somewhere in the hobby future is an anode that doesn't have a speck of Pt in it, that will make clean perchlorate, just like we do with MMO and chlorate.

 

It was only a few years back that we were suspending graphite rods from D-cell batteries in a pickle jar and gathering 125 grams of dirty chlorate after 4 weeks of operation. We've come a long way in a short time. I think this can be continued. Remember the mantra - 'It's the journey, not the destination." For the money many of us have spent pursuing this, we'd all have multiple fiber drums of perchlorate stashed away! Kind of like black powder. Goex costs $20 per pound at a gun store. Much more fun and satisfying rolling your own.

 

Hi Swede,

 

Though my personal prejudice is to separate the terms, I don't argue against your logic and concede the point; (per)chlorates it is. Now that that's over, let's go make something ...

 

WSM

[pyrojig]

 

It was only a few years back that we were suspending graphite rods from D-cell batteries in a pickle jar and gathering 125 grams of dirty chlorate after 4 weeks of operation. We've come a long way in a short time. I think this can be continued. Remember the mantra - 'It's the journey, not the destination." For the money many of us have spent pursuing this, we'd all have multiple fiber drums of perchlorate stashed away! Kind of like black powder. Goex costs $20 per pound at a gun store. Much more fun and satisfying rolling your own.

 

 

LOL, I can completely relate to the graphite adventure!!! WHAT A MESS!!! It is true that (per)chlorates are a journey in learning. I do love electrochemistry and find it fascinating (and even empowering to a point). It is more a love thing, and a ability to create things from raw materials that gets my motor running . It is true so far that perchlorate is probable cheaper to buy(in bulk) than create on a amateur level. BUT, what fun is that now? I really like the idea that WSM presented for a continuous cell sys. . Now the idea is to apply that concept to a perch sys, and use that stockpile of kclo3 to feed the beast.

[Swede]

I was digging through a huge box of various anode materials I had stashed away over the years, and found something I had completely forgotten about - two beautiful brand new deNora platinized Ti mesh sections, each about 8" x 4". I don't even remember picking them up. I think I did it back when I was getting frustrated with lead dioxide. Anyway, they are just sitting there, begging to be used.

 

It's something to keep in mind. The best anodes for perchlorates are Pt CLAD, meaning a smooth, relatively thick Pt surface, rather than electroplated, which has a velvety, almost sandy feel. But if there is Pt there, it'll make perchlorate. And the price really isn't all that bad. If it comes down to it, we can always put Pt to work, and focus on cell conditions that promote Pt longevity. Keep the Cl- low,and the current density reasonable, and be patient, and I think these anodes will last a long time.

 

But that's almost like surrender, and there's NO SURRENDER in this game!

 

Even with piles of crude, electrolytic perchlorate, there is the critical clean-up phase, which is a process/art all unto itself. It;s not hard to clean up 100 grams. It will be a challenge to clean up 3 to 5 kilos. If recrystallization is needed, we're talking stainless turkey fryer and 20+ gallons of water. The ideal method would be a well-washed crude electrolytic product that is low enough in chlorate to pass as perchlorate. And the mil spec from the U.S. military for potassium perchlorate calls for 0.10% by weight max chlorate, which should be achievable without too much of a hassle.

[patsroom]

Some peoples junk boxes........ Pat Edited October 11, 2012 by patsroom