making potassium (per) chlorate

[WSM]

Aircon cables are for 110 or 220-230 V .. Say if an aircon uses 3KW on 220V it means 3000/220 =~13.5 amp for your cable (not near 80!! )

Now if you want to run your aircon on 5V ... you will need some heavy cables 3000/5 = 600 amp!

This is why the power supply cables in the air run really high voltages, means low amps.

For the power you have to do it the other way around.. smart WSM thinking. Adjust your anode to your power supply. A good comp power supply probably handles easy 20A.

I would try an anode of 2" x 4" for that.

 

Yes, if you only use one cathode with your anode, but if you use two cathodes to surround the anode, the total current demand would be almost 31A. If your power supply can deliver 39 Amps or more without undue stress, I say go for it !

 

WSM

[taiwanluthiers]

Where can I get MMO anodes? Would it work for perchlorates?

[Arthur]

Seems that you don't just buy electrodes unless you are very lucky. Ebay seller Laser Red offers MMO mesh sheet in offcut sizes (try ebay dot com the USA site) Laserred also seems to ship world wide. That's your anode plate (well mesh). The cathode needs to be Titanium and sometimes ebay again will find a source. Both electrode hangers are made from titanium spot welded onto the plates.

 

There is a lot of skill in getting the hangers right so that you can seal them into the cell top without the joint leaking. Remember that chlorate cell liquor eats almost everything -silicone is regarded as short life (weeks) before it needs replacing.

[WSM]

Where can I get MMO anodes? Would it work for perchlorates?

 

Arthuer answered about MMO availability. The eBay lister known as laserred sells pieces of surplus MMO on CP titanium mesh at very good prices.

 

Can MMO be used for perchlorate? No, but it can be used for a base for LD plating if you're set up for it. Swede posted one technique in his blog somewhere in 2009 if memory serves (look it up for the details). Use MMO and titanium to produce lots of clean chlorate feed stock for your perchlorate cell .

 

WSM

[Swede]

The amount of current that goes INTO a cell is what drives the reaction, and the size of the cell itself is important only insofar as heating of the cell goes. For example, you've got two cells, one a 5 gallon bucket, the other a 55 gallon drum. 100 amps into both cells will produce chlorate at pretty much the same rate, but the 5 gallon bucket will heat up a lot more than the 55 gallon drum.

 

Heat is good so long as it's not excessive for the materials. Some plastics weaken with heat. Something also to remember with heat and PVC piping as used to create cells... PVC is rated for its performance under pressure. If a piece of pipe is rated for "65 C" that is them saying "Our pipe can handle 100 PSI or 7 bar at 65 C". Since our cells rarely see more than a fraction of a bar, and all of that due to head pressure of the liquid, I am convinced we can run a plain PVC vessel at much higher temps than rated without failure. If there's any doubt, CPVC would be great but it is very expensive compared to plain PVC.

 

In other words, thin-walled plain PVC would do fine if one can seal it. It is hard to cement a thin-walled 12" diameter pipe to a PVC flat.

 

Laserred's MMO can be cut into usable anodes without welding. Simply cut it in the shape you'd want with the strap being composed of the MMO material itself. It's going to be hard to seal due to the mesh, but it's possible. That's one area where the liquid viton rubber would shine.

 

Any metal other than titanium (or Pt, maybe some other valve metals) to deliver current to a section of immersed MMO is going to disintegrate. This means you can't simply hang some MMO on a Cu wire and immerse it. Some of the guys have mentioned mechanical means to attach Ti straps to MMO sections, and that has a lot of merit if welding is impossible. Ti bolts and nuts can be found surplus, and these would be ideal.

 

I'm thinking about doing another run of electrode sets. I'll post here first on the Agora if it happens. I feel like I've got enough mesh to equip a small country! I'm thinking also of doing a run of some tubular shanks, but these are really labor intensive. Well worth it though, when run through a PVDF compression fitting.

[ANFO]

Many computer power supplies can supply 30A. If we want to take it easy on our power supply, size the anode to demand only 80% of that, or 24A. Now the most efficient setup is two cathode plates surrounding the anode plate. I figure a setup like that would use an anode 1.5" x 4".

 

1) 1.5" x 4" = 6"²

2) 6"² x 2 = 12"²

3) 12"² = 77.4cm²

4) 77.4cm² x 0.3A/cm² = 23.22A

 

Step one finds the square inches of the anode

Step two shows the average total surface area of the anode (two times the single side surface area; omit this step if only one cathode is used)

Step three converts the square inches to square centimeters (a ratio of 1 to 6.45)

Step four multiplies the surface area in cm² by the average current per cm² (which is 0.3A) and yields the total expected current demand of 23.22 Amps.

 

I use this formula all the time to calculate the total current demand of any MMO anode, and so far it holds true.

 

Now if your power supply is rated to 30A (which would call for AWG 10 gage wire) and all you have is finer wire, just multiply the number of wires used till the required cross section for the current demand is met. Basically, the voltage carried determines the insulation thickness, the current carried determines the conductor cross section.

 

WSM

 

Forgive me, my electrical knowledge isn't expert, but wouldn't the type (size/distance between electrodes) of cell also effect the current drawn? I thought that the total resistance of the system would dictate current drawn ( voltage of power supply divided by total resistance of system equals total current drawn or am I just missing something

 

 

 

 

 

[taiwanluthiers]

It sounds as though there are absolutely no cost advantage to making perchlorates if I am already paying 20 dollars a pound... it sounds complicated and lots of potential for things to get very messy or generating toxic gases. Not to mention I still need to somehow purify the final product.

[pdfbq]

Forgive me, my electrical knowledge isn't expert, but wouldn't the type (size/distance between electrodes) of cell also effect the current drawn?

Yes, of course. The 23.22123987142346154263 Amps of WSM is a guideline

[WSM]

Yes, of course. The 23.22123987142346154263 Amps of WSM is a guideline

 

Well, more of a "for instance...", but thanks for noticing !

 

WSM

[WSM]

Forgive me, my electrical knowledge isn't expert, but wouldn't the type (size/distance between electrodes) of cell also effect the current drawn? I thought that the total resistance of the system would dictate current drawn ( voltage of power supply divided by total resistance of system equals total current drawn or am I just missing something

 

Yes, absolutely. The gap between the electrodes adds to the cell resistance. Industry reduces the resistance by spacing the electrodes very close to each other (and running cooling water through hollow electrodes to control the cell temperature). Your understanding of Ohm's law is sound, but the other half is Power over Voltage times Current. These all play together in our calculations (I²R losses = heat formed, and account for part of the total current used but not effectively producing product, if I'm correct).

 

I've been experimenting with electrode spacing of about 1/8" (3mm), and finding some success.

 

WSM

[ANFO]

Yes, absolutely. The gap between the electrodes adds to the cell resistance. Industry reduces the resistance by spacing the electrodes very close to each other (and running cooling water through hollow electrodes to control the cell temperature). Your understanding of Ohm's law is sound, but the other half is Power over Voltage times Current. These all play together in our calculations (I²R losses = heat formed, and account for part of the total current used but not effectively producing product, if I'm correct).

 

I've been experimenting with electrode spacing of about 1/8" (3mm), and finding some success.

 

WSM

 

 

Very close electrodes would result in a very high current, which does cause an amount of the energy to be lost through heat, as more work is done per second. Heat then decreases efficiency of conductors by creating a higher resistance. Then high temperature solution would allow the concentration of KCl to be higher, and a higher concentration would also decrease resistance and increase current again. So its a case of finding a butter zone.

 

I'm just going to take a resistance reading of my assembled cell (when all the stuff arrives) at various different electrode distances to see what will work best.

[WSM]

It sounds as though there are absolutely no cost advantage to making perchlorates if I am already paying 20 dollars a pound... it sounds complicated and lots of potential for things to get very messy or generating toxic gases. Not to mention I still need to somehow purify the final product.

 

If you can get perchlorates at all, you're ahead of the game. Some folks have no source for perchlorates and their only access to them is what they can make for themselves. I do have access but imagine it could all change one day, with the stroke of a pen. When and if that time ever comes, I'll be satisfied knowing I can make it for myself, if need be.

 

WSM

 

And yes, it is messy, stinky and requires much handling , BUT it's worth it .

Edited September 9, 2012 by WSM

[WSM]

Very close electrodes would result in a very high current, which does cause an amount of the energy to be lost through heat, as more work is done per second. Heat then decreases efficiency of conductors by creating a higher resistance. Then high temperature solution would allow the concentration of KCl to be higher, and a higher concentration would also decrease resistance and increase current again. So its a case of finding a butter zone.

I'm just going to take a resistance reading of my assembled cell (when all the stuff arrives) at various different electrode distances to see what will work best.

 

Be sure to share the results .

 

Butter zone?! I thought it was the sweet spot!

 

WSM

[ANFO]

Be sure to share the results .

 

Butter zone?! I thought it was the sweet spot!

 

WSM

 

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Butter%20Zone

[WSM]

http://www.urbandict...m=Butter%20Zone

 

Okay, that's a new one to me; butter zone it is .

 

WSM

[Arthur]

Commercial perc may be both cheaper and better, until at the stroke of a pen it simply goes off the market. Chlorate is off the retail market in Europe now, and th usual suspects (in the UK) charge more for chlorate than perc.

[taiwanluthiers]

There's always Polish suppliers, and one other supplier in the UK (like oliver brown) who sells chlorates at a good price. Also shipment from Poland to the UK does not pass through customs.

[ANFO]

Has anyone tried to use contact adhesive to seal things up in their cells? Contact adhesive is essentially neoprene (polychloroprene), which is very resilient to all kinds of chemical damage. Besides from the claims of acid and chemical resistance on the tin, I'm pretty sure that they also make heavy duty chemical resistant gloves out of neoprene. Any thoughts? Edited September 10, 2012 by ANFO

[taiwanluthiers]

What about solder your copper to whatever wire anode then insert a glass tube and heat seal it? I am sure glass can withstand anything except for Hydrofluoric acid. Then seal the glass with neoprene or whatever.

[WSM]

What about solder your copper to whatever wire anode then insert a glass tube and heat seal it? I am sure glass can withstand anything except for Hydrofluoric acid. Then seal the glass with neoprene or whatever.

 

I imagine if you can work with molten glass it would seal well on a platinized wire. This would be ideal if the glass tubing were tough enough to take some handling without breaking. I think I'll stick to spot-welding tubular titanium and sealing it in the cell with PVDF compression fittings.

 

WSM

[ANFO]

I was reading up on Viton, and I thought I'd look into the liquid viton thing a bit. It seems that the VDF component of Viton is not particularly soluble in acetone, however it is soluble in butanone (aka methyl ethyl ketone). Butanone is commonly sold as plastic cement in hobby shops, and it also makes up quite a large percentage of PVC cement (however PVC cement contains PVC resin and tetrahydrofuran, another powerful solvent). All my stuff is still on the way from all over the planet but I thought I'd share that find now in case someone wants to try it

[Swede]

I need to play with viton a bit more and see what can be done with it in terms of solvents and the like.

 

The main reason I (and I suspect others) pursue this so much is because it is challenging, fun, and fascinating. When I started 4 or 5 years ago, most of the guys were using graphite anodes in a beaker or a pickle jar or similar. Industry and professional labs and investigators had a sound understanding, but it was hard to ferret out the knowledge and apply it on a smaller scale in a garage or shop.

 

Most of the pictures of the home processes revealed nasty corroded wiring, open-top cells with dangerous salt creep everywhere, and 65 grams of gray chlorate after 5 weeks of operation. MMO was out there, but it was a bit mysterious, and very expensive. No one knew much about materials, efficiency, pH, testing (qualitative and quantitative) for both chlorates and perchlorates. We've come a long way since then. Within our grasp is potassium, ammonium, and barium chlorates and perchlorates starting from brine and electricity.

 

It's like home brew beer and wine. You can buy beer all day long, but it's also fun to make.

[Swede]

I forgot to mention - ANY material that is in contact with the interior of an active cell is going to be attacked to some degree unless it is one of the more common materials we've identified, namely PVC, fluorinated polyethylenes like PTFE (teflon), PVDF (kynar), or glass. Viton works well. Some other plastics hang in there longer than others, but most get pretty trashed fairly quickly. Nylon disintegrates in a matter of a couple of days. Many of the more exotic Tygon branded polymer tubings are fine.

 

I suspect contact cement isn't going to last very long, but it's worth a shot.

 

When analyzing materials, the question to ask is compatibility with chlorine. Of all the byproducts, it is the chlorine that does the bulk of the damage. For example, I had some used liquor stored in a couple of cheap Wal-Mart HDPE jerry cans for a couple of years, and the harsh electrolyte ate through the HDPE, resulting in a nasty leak. That was even without active chlorine generation; the stuff was simply being stored. I'm thinking in the future of allowing used electrolyte gas off a bit before it goes into any long-term storage.

 

As part of my latest project, I needed to upgrade my storage a bit. I was looking to purchase a couple of 15 to 30 gallon heavy-walled HDPE drums which would store electrolyte over a bed of KCl crystals. The drums themselves aren't too bad, typically costing $40 to $65, but the shipping was lethal. I did find a USA-based place that sells refurbished HDPE drums at a decent price. Check these guys out:

 

Baytec Containers http://www.bayteccontainers.com/ They have some good stuff besides the drums.

 

They have a few specials with free shipping. I bought a pair of 20 gallon drums... http://www.bayteccontainers.com/20-gallon-blue-plastic-drum.html I need to find a simple hand siphon that will fit into the 2" bung.

[ANFO]

I have to agree There's nothing like the homemade product. But availability is actually quite a problem here, which is why I'm sitting on everything from homemade nitrates to homemade fuses.

 

I looked up neoprene pretty extensively, and it scored a C to D rating against chlorine, which means it's not even worth a try unfortunately.

 

I'm looking into this liquid viton theory to seal up where my electrodes are going into the container, hopefully it turns up some results. I've picked up 20 empty chlorine buckets for free, that's going to be my starting point even though they aren't heavy walled. I can get chemical grade heavy HDPE drums (with the metal ring clasp on the top) for pretty cheap, and they're locally made, but at the moment they're too big for what I'm doing weighing in at 25 liters to 220 liters.

Edited September 11, 2012 by ANFO

[WSM]

I have to agree There's nothing like the homemade product. But availability is actually quite a problem here, which is why I'm sitting on everything from homemade nitrates to homemade fuses.

I looked up neoprene pretty extensively, and it scored a C to D rating against chlorine, which means it's not even worth a try unfortunately.

I'm looking into this liquid viton theory to seal up where my electrodes are going into the container, hopefully it turns up some results. I've picked up 20 empty chlorine buckets for free, that's going to be my starting point even though they aren't heavy walled. I can get chemical grade heavy HDPE drums (with the metal ring clasp on the top) for pretty cheap, and they're locally made, but at the moment they're too big for what I'm doing weighing in at 25 liters to 220 liters.

 

If you go through Swede's blogs, you'll come across his mention of round leads through PVDF compression fittings. That revelation by Swede opened the door for me to progress my work without the aggravating salt creep with the subsequent power lead corrosion problems.

 

I've tried it and it works well. The difficult parts are sourcing the titanium tubing to use for leads, forming them and spot-welding them to the electrodes, filling them with a low melting point conductive metal, etc. Once all that is managed, it's completely possible to make a productive cell without the mess.

 

It's not easy, but it is possible.

 

I think Swede is getting ready to offer some electrodes with tubular leads in the Agora; stay tuned...

 

WSM