WSM Posted April 27, 2012 Posted April 27, 2012 @ wsm ....I just picked up about 4' of 10 " scd 40 pvc tube . If I where to make a super-cell out of it , what would the height need to be in your opinion? I was thinking 2' max. I DO need some plate however to do the top and bottom. With the other half I think I'll make for mill jars like Oldguys design. Hi pyrojig, Schedule 40 PVC pipe in 10 inch has a volume of approximately 4 gallons (~15 liters) per foot. Since I recommend leaving a healthy space above the liquor in the cell (say, 6" or 150mm), a 24" tank would make a 6 gallon (~22.7 liter) cell! You could use either 3/8" or 1/2" PVC plate for the ends of the cell. It'll be heavy so don't plan on a portable system. Good luck, it sounds like a fun project. You'll need to find a worthy power supply to handle the job (one step at a time... ). WSM
WSM Posted April 27, 2012 Posted April 27, 2012 Not sure which jar design you mean, as they have evolved.Strongest is the most recent design. Before Rings were added & ¼ round router-ed. Solvent welded rings added. Super strong at all joints. NICE DESIGN!!! (What would one of those cost??!) WSM
oldguy Posted April 27, 2012 Posted April 27, 2012 (edited) NICE DESIGN!!! (What would one of those cost??!) WSM I have no idea what a per jar cost would be. I am not nor want to be in the ball mill jar business.Other than building a half dozen for my own personal use. I have only built a few to trade for other unique pyro related items. Plus a few others that were traded to local guys in a muzzle loader club, to make fast BP with. Which is a whole story in itself.In that I was amazed most the gun guys spend big money on muzzle loader guns & bullet molds.But, very few (at least round here) made their own BP before I bumped into the group. This design BM jar is not hard to build, once you get the hang of it.The biggest issue was getting the pipe ends perfectly true & flat.Because if they are not, you cannot get a perfect solvent weld.The way to get the pipe ends perfectly true & flat is with a large diameter disk sander. The other issue was a perfect sized hole in the flat plate you solvent weld to the pipe ends. So you can fit a throat to the jar the cap fits over.If you don't want to buy a CNC cutter. It can be done with a 4.5 inch LENOX hole bit on a drill press. If you have all the required tools & a supply of pipe & flat PVC.It's the time & labor cutting, sanding, fitting & solvent welding them together that adds major cost one at a time.I suppose I could get around that by cutting, drilling & trueing everything up 10 or so at a time.Then solvent weld them together 10 at a time. But again, I don't care to be in the BM jar business. It is simply not worth my time, except for personal use. Edited April 27, 2012 by oldguy
pyrojig Posted April 28, 2012 Posted April 28, 2012 (edited) Whoah !!! Those are absolutely beautiful !!! I love the changes !!!! I am very impressed. And yes this is what I was referring to. Thank you for the new info BTW. At WSM Thanks for the info as well.I do plan one building one as you describe. The 6" space above electrolyte is a good idea indeed. I just need to round up the plate material and get the ball rolling . I DO have a belt/disk (4" dia and 12in belt on top) combo. It is a good unit, but I fear it may not be as easy to do v.s. a 12 " sander like oldguy has. Any suggestions ? Edited April 28, 2012 by pyrojig
WSM Posted April 29, 2012 Posted April 29, 2012 Whoah !!! Those are absolutely beautiful !!! I love the changes !!!!I am very impressed. And yes this is what I was referring to. Thank you for the new info BTW. At WSM Thanks for the info as well.I do plan one building one as you describe. The 6" space above electrolyte is a good idea indeed. I just need to round up the plate material and get the ball rolling . I DO have a belt/disk (4" dia and 12in belt on top) combo. It is a good unit, but I fear it may not be as easy to do v.s. a 12 " sander like oldguy has. Any suggestions ? I'm afraid there's no substitute for good tools. I came to the conclusion oldguy was right and resigned myself to finding and buying a 12" disk sander. Ebay was a bust so I hunted over at Harbor Freight Tools and found one. The problem was it costs about $140 plus tax (more than I wanted to spend). The solution was finding it on sale for $130 AND combining with one of their 20% off coupons. I saved about $35 off the full price and got a tool that'll serve me well for many of the material preparation jobs I have around here. You can't beat a good tool for helping you get things done! One recommendation; if you get one of the HF 12" disk sanders, invest in a dust collection setup or build your own. These things can make a glorious mess all over the place if it's output isn't contained (plus I suspect the fine PVC powder it makes while cleaning up large bore PVC pipe may find a pyrotechnic use ). WSM
WSM Posted April 29, 2012 Posted April 29, 2012 I have no idea what a per jar cost would be.I am not nor want to be in the ball mill jar business.Other than building a half dozen for my own personal use. I have only built a few to trade for other unique pyro related items. Plus a few others that were traded to local guys in a muzzle loader club, to make fast BP with. Which is a whole story in itself.In that I was amazed most the gun guys spend big money on muzzle loader guns & bullet molds.But, very few (at least round here) made their own BP before I bumped into the group.This design BM jar is not hard to build, once you get the hang of it.The biggest issue was getting the pipe ends perfectly true & flat.Because if they are not, you cannot get a perfect solvent weld.The way to get the pipe ends perfectly true & flat is with a large diameter disk sander.The other issue was a perfect sized hole in the flat plate you solvent weld to the pipe ends. So you can fit a throat to the jar the cap fits over.If you don't want to buy a CNC cutter. It can be done with a 4.5 inch LENOX hole bit on a drill press.If you have all the required tools & a supply of pipe & flat PVC.It's the time & labor cutting, sanding, fitting & solvent welding them together that adds major cost one at a time.I suppose I could get around that by cutting, drilling & trueing everything up 10 or so at a time.Then solvent weld them together 10 at a time.But again, I don't care to be in the BM jar business. It is simply not worth my time, except for personal use. Understood, oldguy (and I don't blame you, by the way. I've got too many projects going myself...). A big THANK YOU for the excellent descriptions with photos so we can fend for ourselves, though. I agree about getting the ends of the pipe as "perfectly true and flat" as possible for joining to other PVC parts. A lot less glue and effort is then required and leaks are prevented; which is especially important if you're making tankage for large scale or advanced electrochemical cells. WSM
pyrojig Posted April 29, 2012 Posted April 29, 2012 (edited) I know this can stray from the main topic fast( (per)chlorates, but I know we all need ways to reduce our finished material into a fine powder. So that makes it relevant to the topic for the most part. Assuming that I have a 10" pvc tube to start with, what would you suggest a optimum length of the mill jar should be? My current mill jar is 5" x10" hexagon rubber lined. This just got me thinking that a tall but short mill jar may have some advantages, requiring less media to do more efficient work. The more I read, it seems that a larger dia jar is the more effective route. On the flip side of the coin, a deeper jar requires massive amounts of media, and stronger motor, and wears out the other mill hardware running the jar. Any Ideas ........Oldguy......, WSM.....? Edited April 29, 2012 by pyrojig
WSM Posted May 1, 2012 Posted May 1, 2012 (edited) I know this can stray from the main topic fast( (per)chlorates, but I know we all need ways to reduce our finished material into a fine powder. So that makes it relevant to the topic for the most part.Assuming that I have a 10" pvc tube to start with, what would you suggest a optimum length of the mill jar should be? My current mill jar is 5" x10" hexagon rubber lined. This just got me thinking that a tall but short mill jar may have some advantages, requiring less media to do more efficient work. The more I read, it seems that a larger dia jar is the more effective route. On the flip side of the coin, a deeper jar requires massive amounts of media, and stronger motor, and wears out the other mill hardware running the jar. Any Ideas ........Oldguy......, WSM.....? If this post were in the tools section I think oldguy would have answered by now (I'm not sure if he looks at this section). I've done plenty of ball-milling in the past quarter century (funny, I don't feel that old... ) and from your description, I'd say you're right. I wonder if the PVC barrel were rubber lined, would it be quieter? The last time I ran a PVC barrel, neighbors three houses down were poking their heads out to see where all the racket was coming from (the darned thing sounded like a concrete truck running dry, half-full of billiard balls ). I might have to build a sound-proof cover for the thing. My usual barrel is a metal one with a solid rubber liner, and it's reasonably quiet (and gets more so as it runs). WSM Edit: And to bring us back on topic; ball milling is my preferred method of turning those white crystals into powder for use . Edited May 2, 2012 by WSM
Peter8 Posted May 23, 2012 Posted May 23, 2012 Hi, I want to make my own high quality potassium chlorate. So, I want to construct a chlorate cell. I own the following items: 1.) Power Supply / Mean Well HRP-600-5 / 5.0V @ 120.00A = http://www.powergate...wer-supply.html 2.) MMO anode + titanium cathode / 2.8" X 5" size / custom made from Kurt Bjorn So I need to buy:1.) 5 foot, 4 AWG copper wire welding cable = http://www.ebay.com/...=item58938c6184 2.) 4 AWG Tinned Heavy Wall Lug 1/4 inch = http://www.ebay.com/...=item45f1e748d8 3.) Ampere Meter + Shunt / 100A , 50mV = http://www.ebay.com/...=item25700305b5 4.) Plastic container / Dimension: 6" x 6" x 10" = http://www.ebay.com/...=item4aa71c60af 5.) Potassium chloride 6.) Hydrochloric acid and a dropper 7.) Distilled water 8.) Glue to seal anode and cathode Questions:- What other items do I need to make a chlorate cell? - The power supply have a small trimmer potentiometer that allows adjustment between a narrow range.So, do I also need a voltmeter to set the output circuit to 5 volt? Here is one from the same vendor on ebay:http://www.ebay.com/...=item231b83a415 Thanks,Philipp
pdfbq Posted May 23, 2012 Posted May 23, 2012 1.) 5 foot, 4 AWG copper wire welding cable = http://www.ebay.com/...=item58938c6184Nice2.) 4 AWG Tinned Heavy Wall Lug 1/4 inch = http://www.ebay.com/...=item45f1e748d8Hmm.. rvs copper?3.) Ampere Meter + Shunt / 100A , 50mV = http://www.ebay.com/...=item25700305b5Nice to have but you can use a cheap multimeter as well with a 'bridge'. I made a post about this some time ago4.) Plastic container / Dimension: 6" x 6" x 10" = http://www.ebay.com/...=item4aa71c60af95% sure this will work. I used container with same properties (dishwasher etc..) BUT put it in a leak catching something, just in case of.5.) Potassium chlorideReally?6.) Hydrochloric acid and a dropperHmm... would not start with this especially with the massive power supply you have. You'll make more in a week than you can use in a year without ph control.7.) Distilled waterPersonally I dont think you need this for the cell (my personal meaning) especially when using cheap KCl. It's really nice for recrystallization though, but just use demi water which is much cheaper.8.) Glue to seal anode and cathodeUse a hard glue (I use 2 component glue) to glue in your anode and cathode and then seal with either PVC glue or silicon 'kit' (dunno the english name but its for the bathroom). Both keep quite well in a chlorate cell, several runs.Questions:- What other items do I need to make a chlorate cell?Venting - The power supply have a small trimmer potentiometer that allows adjustment between a narrow range.So, do I also need a voltmeter to set the output circuit to 5 volt? Here is one from the same vendor on ebay:http://www.ebay.com/...=item231b83a415Its not important if the current is 4.5V or 5.5V but always nice to have a multimeter
WSM Posted May 23, 2012 Posted May 23, 2012 Hi Philipp, You mention many parts and I'll chime in on the various parts: The power supply is very powerful (I have one of similar rating I got from Kurt about three years ago). With an anode that size I calculate a maximum current draw of 27 Amps using a single cathode (54 Amps using two cathodes to surround the anode). Most of Kurt's electrodes have flat CP titanium straps for leads which can be challenging to seal into the cell lid. Pyrojig had reasonable success using an epoxy material, but it evetually fails and salt creep (the least of the issues) causes problems for the electrical connections. I'm also concerned about the electrode straps overheating. The plastic container for the cell seems small to me. For electrodes that size, I think a 20 liter container would be the minimum size I'd try. If the lead straps are short, a bubbler or some other method to stir the cell liquor is recommended so the heat doesn't stay at the top of the cell but everything gets mixed up and reacts throughout the cell, evenly. Despite what others have said about not needing distilled water, I recommend it so you know that if there are problems, the water is NOT the cause and you've eliminated one source of trouble. Contaminants then will be from some other source (bad salt, poor quality acid, dirty container, etc.). Since your power supply has the capacity to supply 120 Amperes, why not use a 200 Amp meter and shunt? You won't need it now, but later on if you scale up to a systen that will demand over 100 Amps, you'll be glad you got the higher range ammeter. As for a volt meter, the range I suggest is 0-20 Volts DC. It would display accurately any voltage your supply will deliver under normal conditions. Be sure to solidly crimp the tinned copper lug onto the #4 welding cable. Most sellers of welding cable (welding supply stores) carry a crimper for $10-15 that will do an excellent job of crimping the terminals on the cables. Make sure your leads will reach the cell without stretching or straining to do so. If your power supply is two feet away from the cell connectors, five feet is enough cable. If it's further, I'd get a longer piece (keep extra cable because it's better to be looking AT it than FOR it). Swede shows some excellent ways to administer the HCl doses without gassing yourself; in his blog. Study it and see if you can create a safe means of doing the pH control without exposing yourself or others to chlorine gas. This happens if too much HCl is added too quickly. It's better to slowly diffuse it in under the surface of the cell liquor to minimize any release of chlorine into the air. If there's anything I missed or overlooked, feel free to ask. I have a question, what part of the world are you in? If you're in the US, I can make other suggestions you may find useful. Have fun. WSM Hi, I want to make my own high quality potassium chlorate. So, I want to construct a chlorate cell. I own the following items: 1.) Power Supply / Mean Well HRP-600-5 / 5.0V @ 120.00A = http://www.powergate...wer-supply.html 2.) MMO anode + titanium cathode / 2.8" X 5" size / custom made from Kurt Bjorn So I need to buy:1.) 5 foot, 4 AWG copper wire welding cable = http://www.ebay.com/...=item58938c6184 2.) 4 AWG Tinned Heavy Wall Lug 1/4 inch = http://www.ebay.com/...=item45f1e748d8 3.) Ampere Meter + Shunt / 100A , 50mV = http://www.ebay.com/...=item25700305b5 4.) Plastic container / Dimension: 6" x 6" x 10" = http://www.ebay.com/...=item4aa71c60af 5.) Potassium chloride 6.) Hydrochloric acid and a dropper 7.) Distilled water 8.) Glue to seal anode and cathode Questions:- What other items do I need to make a chlorate cell? - The power supply have a small trimmer potentiometer that allows adjustment between a narrow range.So, do I also need a voltmeter to set the output circuit to 5 volt? Here is one from the same vendor on ebay:http://www.ebay.com/...=item231b83a415 Thanks,Philipp
WSM Posted May 23, 2012 Posted May 23, 2012 1.) 5 foot, 4 AWG copper wire welding cable = http://www.ebay.com/...=item58938c6184Nice I agree (plus use it myself) 2.) 4 AWG Tinned Heavy Wall Lug 1/4 inch = http://www.ebay.com/...=item45f1e748d8Hmm.. rvs copper? I'm sure it's tin-plated copper.3.) Ampere Meter + Shunt / 100A , 50mV = http://www.ebay.com/...=item25700305b5Nice to have but you can use a cheap multimeter as well with a 'bridge'. I made a post about this some time ago A good multimeter is a valuable tool, but I like using individual panel meters for monitoring what's happening in the cell (basically, I believe in using BOTH).4.) Plastic container / Dimension: 6" x 6" x 10" = http://www.ebay.com/...=item4aa71c60af95% sure this will work. I used container with same properties (dishwasher etc..) BUT put it in a leak catching something, just in case of. Having a temporary system in a safety catch basin is very good advice. I agree. 5.) Potassium chlorideReally? Sure, why not?! Whether you make your chlorate from sodium or potassium salt, you'll need the potassium chloride at some point (if potassium chlorate is your goal).6.) Hydrochloric acid and a dropperHmm... would not start with this especially with the massive power supply you have. You'll make more in a week than you can use in a year without ph control. Correct, but things go faster and more efficiently if the proper pH is maintained. Bear in mind, without pH control, the system will still work as pdfbq says. 7.) Distilled waterPersonally I dont think you need this for the cell (my personal meaning) especially when using cheap KCl. It's really nice for recrystallization though, but just use demi water which is much cheaper. I've used a reverse osmosis system for cell water. The RO system removes most, but not all, of the dissolved solids in my tap water (>95%). Tap water may contain fluorides which will kill your MMO anode faster than you will believe, by attacking the titanium substrate and causing a separation of the MMO coating. Distilled water costs more but will eliminate any water problems.8.) Glue to seal anode and cathodeUse a hard glue (I use 2 component glue) to glue in your anode and cathode and then seal with either PVC glue or silicon 'kit' (dunno the english name but its for the bathroom). Both keep quite well in a chlorate cell, several runs. The silicone bathroom caulk will help for a while but eventually breaks down. The better method may be an epoxy seal. I prefer the filled tubular titanium leads sealed in a PVDF compression fitting as Swede shows in his blogs (even though this is harder to do).Questions:- What other items do I need to make a chlorate cell?Venting Definately; I agree. - The power supply have a small trimmer potentiometer that allows adjustment between a narrow range.So, do I also need a voltmeter to set the output circuit to 5 volt? Here is one from the same vendor on ebay:http://www.ebay.com/...=item231b83a415Its not important if the current is 4.5V or 5.5V but always nice to have a multimeter I turn the trimmer as low as it will go, but not below 3.6 Volts DC (Industry standard). The voltage is not as important to the process as the current is but a minimum must be supplied (about 1.5 or 2.0 Volts DC, but higher than this is better). -WSM
Peter8 Posted May 23, 2012 Posted May 23, 2012 Hi, Thanks a lot for your very detailed answers. I'm from Switzerland. But, I buy the some parts in the USA and EU, because Switzerland is a high priced country.I know someone in the USA who will collect all items for me and then send them in one package to Switzerland. When I go above 100 amps, I'm sure the supply will struggle. The vendor (Swede) of the anode and cathode wrote to me: (...) I would mix up a couple of liters of KCl and in a glass beaker, with the power on, electrodes connected, sample the spacing needed to get about 40 to 60 amps. It will probably be about 15mm. Closer = higher current. Design your electrode mounting to simulate this spacing. Wattage will be less than 50% of rated, meaning the supply will not struggle. (...) So, I will also install a fuse holder for 4 gauge wire with 100 ampere fuse = http://www.ebay.com/itm/100-AMP-WATER-PROOF-FUSE-HOLDER-AGU-10-8-6-4-GAUGE-AWG-Fuses-/360404872791?_trksid=p4340.m1374&_trkparms=algo%3DUPI.GIROS%26its%3DI%252BC%252BS%26itu%3DUCI%252BUCC%26otn%3D10%26pmod%3D250994734266%26ps%3D63%26clkid%3D8625936050180576722 Venting the gases to the outside: a.) Kynar Connector Tube And Hose Fitting 1/4" x 1/4" = http://www.usplastic.com/catalog/item.aspx?itemid=29358&catid=603 b.) Black HDPE Adapters 1/4" x 1/4" = http://www.usplastic.com/catalog/item.aspx?itemid=29609&catid=465 c.) 3/8" OD x 1/4" ID PTFE Tubing = http://www.usplastic.com/catalog/item.aspx?itemid=33596&catid=840 Or do you know a better place to buy the parts for the venting? 9L Lock & Lock Food Storage Container, HPL838, Size: 295 x 230 x 185mm, Capacity: 9.0L / 38cup / 9.5qt / 304oz http://www.foodstoragemall.com/HPL838.htmlhttp://www.ebay.com/itm/Lock-and-Lock-Airtight-Food-container-9-0L-HPL838-/320631234743?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4aa71c60b7 More Informations from Swede:http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=12944 Thanks, Philipp
pdfbq Posted May 24, 2012 Posted May 24, 2012 (edited) I would take the 'dishwasher safe' jar. I think your venting tube inner diameter might be a bit small. 3/8" inner would be better (more easy).You dont need ptfe. Its very expensive, $6 per foot!! A garden hose will do. In a non ph controlled cell at the start some chlorine gas will escape but this will be gone in some hours.You can prevent this by adding some NaOH or KOH before you start your cell but not necessary.. Edited May 24, 2012 by pdfbq
WSM Posted May 24, 2012 Posted May 24, 2012 Hi,Thanks a lot for your very detailed answers. I'm from Switzerland. But, I buy the some parts in the USA and EU, because Switzerland is a high priced country.I know someone in the USA who will collect all items for me and then send them in one package to Switzerland.When I go above 100 amps, I'm sure the supply will struggle. The vendor (Swede) of the anode and cathode wrote to me: (...) I would mix up a couple of liters of KCl and in a glass beaker, with the power on, electrodes connected, sample the spacing needed to get about 40 to 60 amps. It will probably be about 15mm. Closer = higher current. Design your electrode mounting to simulate this spacing. Wattage will be less than 50% of rated, meaning the supply will not struggle. (...)So, I will also install a fuse holder for 4 gauge wire with 100 ampere fuse = http://www.ebay.com/...936050180576722Venting the gases to the outside: a.) Kynar Connector Tube And Hose Fitting 1/4" x 1/4" = http://www.usplastic...29358&catid=603 b.) Black HDPE Adapters 1/4" x 1/4" = http://www.usplastic...29609&catid=465 c.) 3/8" OD x 1/4" ID PTFE Tubing = http://www.usplastic...33596&catid=840Or do you know a better place to buy the parts for the venting?9L Lock & Lock Food Storage Container, HPL838, Size: 295 x 230 x 185mm, Capacity: 9.0L / 38cup / 9.5qt / 304oz http://www.foodstora...com/HPL838.htmlhttp://www.ebay.com/...=item4aa71c60b7More Informations from Swede:http://www.sciencema...d.php?tid=12944Thanks,Philipp Hi Philipp, As for the electrode spacing, try it and see (as Swede says); but be careful not to let the energized electrodes touch each other or you may damage your power supply ! The vent tube doen't need to be expensive PTFE. Simple clear vinyl tubing will do just fine. I believe in and use Kynar (PVDF) fittings and recommend them for anything inside the cell liquor. PVC or PP fittings would work for the vent; your choice on this. As for the diameter, I think larger is better and I've used 9mm to 13mm ID tubing and everything worked well. I know Swede used the food containers early on, but he quickly moved on to larger PVC and CPVC cells (he also tried acrylic but it failed). Do you have the 5 gallon (~20 L) HDPE buckets with lids available in Switzerland? With a properly prepared flat PVC sheet Bucket Cell Adapter (BCA) mounted to the lid of the bucket you could make large amounts of chlorates before the bucket would fail. Plus, I imagine the cost would be substantially lower. I'm not sure if you had considered this option. Good luck with your project, it looks like fun. WSM
Arthur Posted May 24, 2012 Posted May 24, 2012 10 and 20litre plastic buckets are available in Europe as mayonnaise containers used and discarded by sandwich makers, Buy the occasional sandwich and you could have a free for life supply of buckets with snap lids. Add a Bucket Cell Adaptor to Swede's design and you are set for continuous production. MY finding was that economy KCl was not easily sourced in the UK but I don't know about Switzerland.
WSM Posted May 27, 2012 Posted May 27, 2012 (edited) 10 and 20litre plastic buckets are available in Europe as mayonnaise containers used and discarded by sandwich makers, Buy the occasional sandwich and you could have a free for life supply of buckets with snap lids.Add a Bucket Cell Adaptor to Swede's design and you are set for continuous production. MY finding was that economy KCl was not easily sourced in the UK but I don't know about Switzerland. In the US, a new HDPE bucket with a lid costs about $4 (roughly 3 Euros) at a major home supply store. Free is better but low cost and ready availability is not bad . WSM Edit: The HDPE buckets may not last as long as other polymers and it's advisable to place the bucket in secondary containment, such as a large poly tray as is used for mixing small batches of cement for home repair. That way, if the bucket ruptures, the contents don't create as much of a hazard and mess. Safety first! Edited May 27, 2012 by WSM
Mumbles Posted May 29, 2012 Posted May 29, 2012 Swede came here the other day too, but didn't post anything. TheSidewinder contacted him to confirm it was really him, and that he was alright. He said he'd make a post soon.
pyrojig Posted May 30, 2012 Posted May 30, 2012 Swede came here the other day too, but didn't post anything. TheSidewinder contacted him to confirm it was really him, and that he was alright. He said he'd make a post soon. Yes !!!! That is great news!!!!!!!!!We all have been missing his presence.
dagabu Posted May 30, 2012 Posted May 30, 2012 Swede came here the other day too, but didn't post anything. TheSidewinder contacted him to confirm it was really him, and that he was alright. He said he'd make a post soon. Thank God! I had thought he had run into something awful. We love you Swede! -dag
dangerousamateur Posted May 30, 2012 Posted May 30, 2012 Thea are expensive, but will such a thing herehttp://www.ebay.com/itm/Platinized-Titanium-Anode-2x3-/120724679996?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item1c1bc06d3c be usefull for perchlorate production? And then I've got another question:If...-I only have chloride as starting material and may way is chloride -> chlorate -> perchlorate-in two seperate cells. Platinum is attacked by chloride residues. How severe is that problem in practice? Considering the price of the material....And what's the best procedure to get rid of the chloride residues in the chlorate?
pdfbq Posted May 30, 2012 Posted May 30, 2012 (edited) Not that expensive You might do some runs with that one, but the pt is extremely thin. I recristalized my sodium chlorate first by boiling it down till little cristals start to form, then cool.My feeling was that when you start with this chlorate it is not the worst part for your anode.The difficulty in making perchlorate is knowing when to stop. If you stop to early you have to do a lot of cleaning. If you stop to late your anode gets eaten i think. In my experience when done your pt anode gets yellowish and the current gets up (strange) but then you are a bit too late.I clean my sodium perc with sodium metabisulphite and that is an easy job. Edited May 30, 2012 by pdfbq
WSM Posted May 31, 2012 Posted May 31, 2012 (edited) I hope it works because I bought one about six months ago to try for perchlorate production. I consider it a $36 gamble. I also have two of patsroom's Chinese LD anodes to try. I'm a little concerned about the LD because they were damaged in shipping and I'm afraid they'll separate between the titanium and the LD in an active cell. We'll see... I'm thinking the two system approach to perchlorate production is the better way to go, and because of the relative solubilities of sodium and potassium salts, I'm leaning toward KCl for chlorates and NaCl for perchlorates (chloride to chlorate first and then chlorate to perchlorate, in separate operations with different systems). WSM Thea are expensive, but will such a thing herehttp://www.ebay.com/...=item1c1bc06d3c be usefull for perchlorate production? And then I've got another question:If...-I only have chloride as starting material and may way is chloride -> chlorate -> perchlorate-in two seperate cells. Platinum is attacked by chloride residues. How severe is that problem in practice? Considering the price of the material....And what's the best procedure to get rid of the chloride residues in the chlorate? Edited May 31, 2012 by WSM
WSM Posted May 31, 2012 Posted May 31, 2012 Not that expensive You might do some runs with that one, but the pt is extremely thin.I recristalized my sodium chlorate first by boiling it down till little cristals start to form, then cool.My feeling was that when you start with this chlorate it is not the worst part for your anode.The difficulty in making perchlorate is knowing when to stop. If you stop to early you have to do a lot of cleaning. If you stop to late your anode gets eaten i think. In my experience when done your pt anode gets yellowish and the current gets up (strange) but then you are a bit too late.I clean my sodium perc with sodium metabisulphite and that is an easy job. I agree (the price per troy ounce of platinum is very high, so the amount of platinum on these electrodes must be very small). Knowing when to stop a run is a problem unless you know from experience (which can be costly), or follow the lead of others. How many have destroyed their expensive platinum plated electrodes to gain a few Kilos of perchlorate? If we learn from the experience, all is not lost. Hopefully we learn when to stop and how to maximize the use of our electrodes. In the sodium process, the end result is a concentrated sodium perchlorate solution, free of chlorate ions. Then if we desire potassium perchlorate we add a concentrated potassium chloride solution and the greatly less soluble potassium perchlorate drops out of solution immediately. After vacuum filtering and a cold DI water rinse, the KP is dried and stored. It sounds easy but it involves a lot of handling. If we set up for it, it's just the routine we go through to get our desired product . WSM
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