making potassium (per) chlorate

[WSM]

@ WSM

This is great news. I too am excited to get away from the flat strap and work on a tubular design to get the most juice to the electrodes as well as perfectly seal the post from salt creep. I have had amazing luck with a THICK layer of jb weld as a barrier for my flat Ti strap where it enters the cell. It adds structural strength as well as a good seal. But the down side is, it too degrades and will need to be sanded off with new Jb weld applied afterward to keep the salt creep from getting by( once every other month).

What are you running that doensnt need a fan to cool it? It must have large heat sinks to shed the heat created by the resistance.

 

The power supply is a 5Vdc 30A supply I bought at an electronics supply house in a nearby town for less than $20. They have lots of surplus materials as well as the standard components. They cater to the HAM radio crowd as well as electronics hobbiests of all sorts in the area (it's an old fashioned sort of store where the owner knows the regulars on a first-name basis).

 

The supply has lots of vent holes in the case so adding a fan is easy if required, but since I ran it at less than 80% of it's rated capacity it never got more than a little warm to the touch. If you look several pages back to where I have photos of the pickle-jar cell set up (last July) you can see what the supply looks like. If need be, I can photograph it and post it here. Let me know...

 

WSM

[SolarSeeker]

Aluminum is highly reactive in it's own right, using it as an electrode in practically any electrolytic cell will promptly find you with a muddy puddle of some aluminum compound.

[Bonny]

Aluminum is highly reactive in it's own right, using it as an electrode in practically any electrolytic cell will promptly find you with a muddy puddle of some aluminum compound.

 

 

What are you talking about?

[oldmanbeefjerky]

I would imagine it was a post made without a quote accidentally , responding to the many people asking if they can use aluminium in a chlorate cell, since it doesnt produce a chlorine smell as fast (or does produce one very quickly, i forget ), and it bubbles quite allot too.

that is true though, its pretty much unuseable as an anode or cathode, because of the caustic-ness of the cell.

[WSM]

Aluminum is highly reactive in it's own right, using it as an electrode in practically any electrolytic cell will promptly find you with a muddy puddle of some aluminum compound.

 

Almost all of us here advocate the use of titanium and titanium based MMO (DSA) electrodes for chlorate production. For chlorate production, aluminum isn't even a consideration. Aluminum breaks down in an alkaline environment and hypochlorites are alkaline. In fact, I know people who use aluminum foil and lye solution to generate hydrogen!

 

WSM

[oldmanbeefjerky]

such as me. floating balloons is fun ☺

Especially at night with mini strobe flashers taped to them.

 

I wonder if i can harness the hydrogen generated from my cell on my next run

Or might something happen with the hydrogen and chlorine under compression in a balloon?

Im not sure if its BS or not, but ive heard that under slight compression, and/or mild heat or light exposure, hydrogen combusts in the presence of chlorine gas, and has been the trigger of some terrorist or arson attacks, in which a large container of somesorts containing hydrogen and chlorine, in a room full of petrol , is used to ignite the place when its day time or exposed to artificial light. Anyway, it sounded pretty legitimate, but then again not. otherwise we would get explosions in our cells right?

Edited November 21, 2011 by oldmanbeefjerky

[WSM]

such as me. floating balloons is fun ☺

Especially at night with mini strobe flashers taped to them.

I wonder if i can harness the hydrogen generated from my cell on my next run

Or might something happen with the hydrogen and chlorine under compression in a balloon?

Im not sure if its BS or not, but ive heard that under slight compression, and/or mild heat or light exposure, hydrogen combusts in the presence of chlorine gas, and has been the trigger of some terrorist or arson attacks, in which a large container of somesorts containing hydrogen and chlorine, in a room full of petrol , is used to ignite the place when its day time or exposed to artificial light. Anyway, it sounded pretty legitimate, but then again not. otherwise we would get explosions in our cells right?

 

I don't know about the hydrogen - chlorine thing (it bears investigation), but I don't think the chlorine would do a latex balloon any good. The biggest problem with using the cell's hydrogen is getting enough pressure to fill a balloon. When generating hydrogen in a closed system it can generate enough pressure to overcome the resistance of the balloon and fill it well.

 

Others have used the aluminum-hydroxide method to generate hydrogen. My old favorite was muriatic acid in the bottom of a large soda bottle and adding an aluminum foil "cigar" filled with zinc dust. It generates the hydrogen fairly fast and within a few minutes a 30cm to 50cm balloon is ready for flight. A hydrogen balloon is more buoyant than a helium balloon, too; so it will lift more ! Have fun but be careful (remember the Hindenburg!)!!!

 

WSM

[oldmanbeefjerky]

Im just hoping to get the most out of my cell hydroxide isnt free, but the hydrogen im making is, figuratively,considering it would normally go to waste.

ill run it through a scrubber of somesorts, so the gas bubbles through water, in a sort of reversed vacuum seal way, so for the gas to move back up into the cell, it would first need to be pushed down through water, plus then through a simple one way valve.

Next cracker night i want to use balloons to lift some multicolour flare/sparkler fountain stuff high up into the air as it burns. since a lift would only keep whatever im shooting, in the air for only so long.

Also i think we all learned a lesson from the hindenburg. Dont build a giant balloon full of explosive gas, out of a highly flammable compound like NC.

Though this is going a little off topic ....

 

 

Back on topic, i want to build a desoldering pot, which among other things i intend to use as well to melt PVC for casting, so that i can build a sort of bridge to space the electrodes apart in my chlorate cell which i now have all the parts for, cap , middle , screw end, and screw cap.

I didnt cut the gaps straight in the lid, so ill need the assistance of a pvc bar with straight cuts in it, to hold the electrodes straight and not touching each other which will end up happening with some help. also i want to do some pvc casting.

 

Any pointers? ive never cast PVC before, and i have allot of time to think about it before i build the desoldering pot

Edited November 22, 2011 by oldmanbeefjerky

[Arthur]

PVC degrades before it really melts and the fume off is HCl gas which is very unpleasant. Get PVC bar and cut it with a saw and file the parts carefully to size and shape.

[pyrojig]

I wonder if i can harness the hydrogen generated from my cell on my next run

Quoted for OMBJ:

 

I have thought of the same thing. It seems like a waste to just fume off the hydrogen. Why not capture it...?

I think that the bubbling it through another jar of water would work. I dont know how much your gonna get, but as WSM said, most cells dont generate a lot of pressure. ( this also brings about a thought,) can a cell be constructed to work under pressure, and if so would it have a positive outcome on the yield? I think that it would need a blow-off valve and some damn good seals around the electrodes.

[WSM]

PVC degrades before it really melts and the fume off is HCl gas which is very unpleasant. Get PVC bar and cut it with a saw and file the parts carefully to size and shape.

 

The best welding I've done with PVC is solvent welding. Fortunately, I have the ability to machine the PVC which greatly facilitates assembly and close fitting for solvent welding.

 

WSM

[WSM]

Quoted for OMBJ:

I have thought of the same thing. It seems like a waste to just fume off the hydrogen. Why not capture it...?

I think that the bubbling it through another jar of water would work. I dont know how much your gonna get, but as WSM said, most cells dont generate a lot of pressure. ( this also brings about a thought,) can a cell be constructed to work under pressure, and if so would it have a positive outcome on the yield? I think that it would need a blow-off valve and some damn good seals around the electrodes.

 

Swede expressed the opinion that any pressure inside the cell greatly increases the problem of salt creep. My cells have vents to keep the cell running at one atmosphere. I suspect a slight positive pressure in the cell would have a positive effect, but it might cause more problems than it would solve .

 

WSM

Edited November 23, 2011 by WSM

[Arthur]

With the possible grief of salt creep and high temperature distortion of the cell body under pressure, I'd have to say I prefer the atmospheric model! With pH control great improvements in efficiency are possible, make the best of this.

[oldmanbeefjerky]

My cell is stupidly leaky, just because the parts are so big (150mm pvc screw lid). it seems i wont be saving hydrogen after all

This also means that i need something to be sucking air out of the cell, so it will probably have a much lower pressure than outside, which on the positive willmean no salt drip, but will also mean i cant pool water on the lid around each electrode as i had hoped.

[pyrojig]

My cell is stupidly leaky, just because the parts are so big (150mm pvc screw lid). it seems i wont be saving hydrogen after all

This also means that i need something to be sucking air out of the cell, so it will probably have a much lower pressure than outside, which on the positive willmean no salt drip, but will also mean i cant pool water on the lid around each electrode as i had hoped.

 

I think it is time you put your engineering thoughts together and design your cell into a more durable design. Check Swedes blogs for some great ideas. I read that whole thing over several times and it sparked an amazing amount of ideas!!!

 

I too need a revamp in design. I have had great success with a SEALED 5gal sys . It does however require epoxy ( one thing that I really want to get away from.) From experience , Home Depot sells that absolutely best sealed buckets. These 5gal systems are a cheap throwaway sys that anyone can make. I just want something more durable and and less fussy about heat.

[Arthur]

Swede's designs for cells involved clever machining -because he was good at that and had all the tools. The Design for a Bucket Cell Adaptor (BCA ) was developed for folk who had less engineering expertise (or machines!) and was intended for the easy but disposable use of a bucket with a snap top lid. Read the whole of his blog every word is valuable.

[oldmanbeefjerky]

just the lid threading is leaky, nothing else. I payed around $45 all up for the 150mm PVC parts, so im not abandoning it for a bucket cell.

I just need to build a vacume of somesorts, one hose in the top either just a hole, or a pump, pumping air into the bottom of the cell, and another, which sucks the air , slightly faster than the air is going in.

 

My post was more towards the fact i cant use the hydrogen. gas leaking through the cell wont be an issue, since ill have a fan blowing over it anyway.

My exams are today, which means tomorrow begins my school holidays and ill have more time to ACTUALLY DO THE THINGS I PLAN TO DO, like make enough lead/copper oxide or carbonate, to use to plate a graphite anode in LD, with , to restock the plating bath with ions and such.

One thing about that though that concerns me is , do i really need the copper? i understand it means lead will not go to both the anode and cathode, but copper metal forms if i use copper nitrate, and that decomposes nitric acid, wheras lead wont, at least not as quickly, and ide like to be more efficient with my nitric acid, then with my lead.

ill also use lead and copper acetate in a seperate plating bath and then compare the two anodes i get.

[WSM]

With the possible grief of salt creep and high temperature distortion of the cell body under pressure, I'd have to say I prefer the atmospheric model! With pH control great improvements in efficiency are possible, make the best of this.

 

Yup! That's the plan I'm going with... . I expect great results whenever I get around to completing one of these systems I'm toying with .

 

WSM

[WSM]

My cell is stupidly leaky, just because the parts are so big (150mm pvc screw lid). it seems i wont be saving hydrogen after all

This also means that i need something to be sucking air out of the cell, so it will probably have a much lower pressure than outside, which on the positive willmean no salt drip, but will also mean i cant pool water on the lid around each electrode as i had hoped.

 

If I remember correctly, your lid is a screw-on type? I imagine a flat rubber-type ring gasket of maybe silicone sheet or better yet, Viton rubber sheet, would seal between the top of the jar edge and the lid, and take care of the leaks. Let us know if you can try this and if it works for you. Good Luck!

 

WSM

[WSM]

I think it is time you put your engineering thoughts together and design your cell into a more durable design. Check Swedes blogs for some great ideas. I read that whole thing over several times and it sparked an amazing amount of ideas!!!

I too need a revamp in design. I have had great success with a SEALED 5gal sys . It does however require epoxy ( one thing that I really want to get away from.) From experience , Home Depot sells that absolutely best sealed buckets. These 5gal systems are a cheap throwaway sys that anyone can make. I just want something more durable and and less fussy about heat.

 

Me too! I read and re-read his blogs over and over. Also the personal communications we sent each other. All of it is a great resource. I believe Swede used his blogs as an online lab book to refer to as needed. Lucky for us, WE have access to it, too !!!

 

WSM

[WSM]

Swede's designs for cells involved clever machining -because he was good at that and had all the tools. The Design for a Bucket Cell Adaptor (BCA ) was developed for folk who had less engineering expertise (or machines!) and was intended for the easy but disposable use of a bucket with a snap top lid. Read the whole of his blog every word is valuable.

 

True. I feel fortunate I have some machining ability . It really helps in implimenting some ideas that come up, plus other options present themselves as you're working out the details of how to achieve your goals when building a system.

 

Swede's purpose in developing the BCA (bucket cell adapter) was to make a system everyone could do with minimum machining (since most hobbiests don't have access to an elaborate machine shop). The BCA is brilliant in it's simplicity and utility, and a good first step for any budding electrochemist .

 

I agree Swede's blogs are valuable, and a lot can be learned by studying his work.

 

WSM

[pyrojig]

True. I feel fortunate I have some machining ability . It really helps in implimenting some ideas that come up, plus other options present themselves as you're working out the details of how to achieve your goals when building a system.

 

Swede's purpose in developing the BCA (bucket cell adapter) was to make a system everyone could do with minimum machining (since most hobbiests don't have access to an elaborate machine shop). The BCA is brilliant in it's simplicity and utility, and a good first step for any budding electrochemist .

 

I agree Swede's blogs are valuable, and a lot can be learned by studying his work.

 

WSM

 

This is one thing that I wouldn't mind giving a shot at.. The BCA, is a great idea, and coupled with some round electrode arms and teflon fittings I think we may have a winner for a "simple and cheap" cell design, that is capable of producing kilo's of chlorate w/o leaks or other quirks that come with bad sealed designs.

I like the thought of having a throwaway sys that has user friendly options, and removable parts to aid in the cleaning.

 

 

 

[WSM]

This is one thing that I wouldn't mind giving a shot at.. The BCA, is a great idea, and coupled with some round electrode arms and teflon fittings I think we may have a winner for a "simple and cheap" cell design, that is capable of producing kilo's of chlorate w/o leaks or other quirks that come with bad sealed designs.

I like the thought of having a throwaway sys that has user friendly options, and removable parts to aid in the cleaning.

 

I know Swede was selling electrodes and believe he may have been gearing up to offer BCA blanks for folks to make their own systems with. Is there any interest in something like this? I wonder if it can be done or am I begging a regulatory nightmare ?!

 

Any thoughts...?

 

WSM

[Arthur]

Well selling the whole thing could be misconstrued, they tell me that a filter coffee machine is three drug crimes in Texas,

[pyrojig]

Well selling the whole thing could be misconstrued, they tell me that a filter coffee machine is three drug crimes in Texas,

 

WHAT? How do you figure? What kind of Law is that?

 

 

 

 

 

I know Swede was selling electrodes and believe he may have been gearing up to offer BCA blanks for folks to make their own systems with. Is there any interest in something like this? I wonder if it can be done or am I begging a regulatory nightmare ?

WSM

 

 

@WSM Im interested... . I'd love to get one going. It is a neat design for sure. I think it could be something that others may want.

Edited November 30, 2011 by pyrojig