making potassium (per) chlorate

[oldmanbeefjerky]

The answer is yes, if they are matched/equal to each other. Be sure they output the same voltage and current (at least) or one will "hog" the load and be overworked.

 

Say you have two identical power supplies rated to output 5Vdc and 30A. In theory they could be connected in series to yield 10Vdc and 30A or in parallel to yield 5Vdc and 60A. I believe the greatest challenge will be getting the power supplies with equal outputs. You can hedge your bets if you get power supplies with adjustable outputs and then "tune" them to each other. If you're boosting the current, don't forget to increase the wire size (gage) to match the new rated output or you could burn up your wires !

 

WSM

 

well actually its 30A and 40A, but being 5V for a computer, i would expect them to have identical voltages. both are ATX if i already havent said this.

I dont quite understand why i would need diodes though, but thats easily managed.

 

basically what your saying is that so long as they have the same voltage all is fine and dandy right?

[WSM]

well actually its 30A and 40A, but being 5V for a computer, i would expect them to have identical voltages. both are ATX if i already havent said this.

I dont quite understand why i would need diodes though, but thats easily managed.

basically what your saying is that so long as they have the same voltage all is fine and dandy right?

 

No, I'd try to get them as close to identical as possible. In the scenario you propose, I suspect the 40A supply will "hog the load", or take the majority of the burden of supplying current to the cell, run hotter and work harder; and the 30A supply will loaf along, hardly contributing unless and until the 40A supply breaks down or dies; then the 30A gets the whole load.

 

This is educated guesswork on my part. I'm not an engineer but do work with electricity and electrical equipment, and this what I think will happen and certainly won't be surprised if it does. On the other hand, if you try running the two supplies in parallel and it works, great! By all means, please give us feedback here so we will all benefit from your experiences (good or bad). Thanks.

 

WSM

[WSM]

The question isn't better but what works the best for your needs. The farther apart the electrodes are the lower the voltage becomes, or another way of saying the higher the resistance in the circuit of the cell. It is like putting a resistor in line of the electrode. You need to know what it is that you wish from your cell, the amperage needed, the surface area of the electrode and even if the contacts where you connect the electrodes can play a part, and the size of wiring from the power source ect....

How much salt is in the cell will determine the resistance as well. Pure water does not conduct electric as well without impurities in the liquid solution.

I am not sure as to why an anode will deteriorate if the chloride level is to low in the solution when going for chlorate but it can. The same can happen when going from chlorate to prechlorate as well. So in the end you will have to decide the spacing of the electrodes based on what others have done and begin to adjust from there. I know that this answer is a little vague.

So just start at about 1/4 of an inch, check what the cell is doing check how hot the electrodes become, look for bubbling and adjust from there, that is what I would advise. But I am sure there are other ways of finding what is best spacing for the electrodes.

Pat

 

Pat offers good advice here. There are so many variables and they all deserve attention if our goal is efficient chlorate and/or perchlorate production. If you simply want to make oxidizer salts, the whole thing can be fairly forgiving if you use MMO and Ti electrodes. When you strive for higher efficiency and production, then all the little details come into play and all are a factor in your success or failure. It boils down to what are your needs and wants, and what are you willing to pay (in time and effort)? Certainly don't try to take a shortcut in the educational portion of your preparation; learn as much as you can about the process. There are a lot of folks who've done a lot of work on these things; see if you can save yourself some headaches by learning from their experiences .

 

WSM

[Tesla]

Pat offers good advice here. There are so many variables and they all deserve attention if our goal is efficient chlorate and/or perchlorate production. If you simply want to make oxidizer salts, the whole thing can be fairly forgiving if you use MMO and Ti electrodes. When you strive for higher efficiency and production, then all the little details come into play and all are a factor in your success or failure. It boils down to what are your needs and wants, and what are you willing to pay (in time and effort)? Certainly don't try to take a shortcut in the educational portion of your preparation; learn as much as you can about the process. There are a lot of folks who've done a lot of work on these things; see if you can save yourself some headaches by learning from their experiences .

 

WSM

 

Thanks for the advice, I've already read through some of Swede's blogs, but I'll read through them again to see if I missed anything. Basically all I want is a cell that I can mess around with and can take a bit of a beating. At the moment I'm not so concerned with efficiency, more so with the fact that the cell works when I turn it on For things like spacing the electrodes, I'll start slow and learn with trial and error. I have a fairly good understanding of electricity, and kind of have an Idea of what I need to do to find the correct spacing.

 

 

Edited November 9, 2011 by Tesla

[frank]

You won't learn anything about using computer power supplies from Swede's blog as he did not use them. A good thing to learn from Swede's blog would be to try and obtain a constant current supply.

 

Question from above:

Can you use MMO as Cathodes?

MMO will work OK as cathodes. They are used in bipolar cells all over the place. It's just sounds a bit daft using hard to get MMO for cathodes. Use good stainless steel if you cannot get Ti. Stainless steel works pretty good.

 

Not a good idea to connect computer power supplies in parallel (or series). There will be a large bang IMO.

[pdfbq]

Not a good idea to connect computer power supplies in parallel (or series). There will be a large bang IMO.

No, there will not. It simply works putting them parallel.

 

There is only one small problem and that is that you cannot switch off your cell and then turn it on short after that because when your cell is hot, it cannot run on one supply and you'll not be able to switch them both on exactly at the same time. Solution is to get your electrodes out and lower them slowly when supplies are on.

 

Important with the older computer power supplies are resistors to have always about 1 amp running on all voltages.

Edited November 9, 2011 by pdfbq

[Bonny]

well actually its 30A and 40A, but being 5V for a computer, i would expect them to have identical voltages. both are ATX if i already havent said this.

I dont quite understand why i would need diodes though, but thats easily managed.

 

 

I remembered reading about the diodes here:

 

http://oxidizing.110mb.com/chlorate/cpsu.html

[frank]

@pdfbq

So it is OK to simply connect some of the red wires together from both supplies (and connect to Anode) and some of the black wires together from both supplies (and connect to Cathode) and switch on the two supplies at the same time (or attempt to switch on at the same time, there will be a fraction of a second difference with each, as you say). They you lower the Anode/Cathode assemble into the solution.

No need for diodes? I presume you have actually done this.

What was the amperage of each supply that you did this with and what was the actual current being drawn by the cell?

 

You could also connect one supplies black wires to one cathode, and the other supplies black wires to the other cathode and all the reds from both supplies to the anode (as described by link from Bonny)

 

Diodes will not work too well when using the five volt outputs as when the drop occurs accross the diode (0.8 volts) the Voltage will be getting too low to run the cell. You would have to start using the 12 v outputs.

 

From link:

It is possible to put two of theses supplies in parallel and isolate each supply from the rest by putting in a diodes into both leads from the supply's. You may have to use identical units (which may be hard to come by) so that the current is shared equally between units. Do not run the combined units at the max. new possible combined current as the supplies will probably not share the current equally among themselves.

Another alternative for using computer supplies in parallel is to connect all positives to the anode and connect each negative to a seperate Cathode. The Cathodes should be of equal size and spacing from the Anode and from each other. Diodes should also be placed in each supply to help isolate each supply and stop current being driven into one supply from another.

Edited November 9, 2011 by frank

[pyrojig]

I thought Id bring something a bit off subject ( I see that the tread has been growing very fast) ... I noticed that the ten day runs that Im doing have a distinct consistency . There seems to be what I call the SWEET SPOT. It is when the cell is at its high % of kcl but has made it past the first stages of break down( say a week into the initial startup. This sweet spot is where you get your high yields. I have almost achieved a 75% increase ( from 6.5 lbs to 11 lbs)when I stay in this SWEET SPOT. I find that running the cell start to finish w/o recharging the salt is wasting the energy. If after the extraction your recharging the cell with fresh salt, your increasing the efficiency, and yields. I know that this is common news to most of the fellows who do this for hobby, but for those who are new to electro-chemistry this is a time saver on the learning curve....

Just thought I'd through in my two cents worth.

Edited November 10, 2011 by pyrojig

[oldmanbeefjerky]

well, when i run my cell, ill test the ammeter on both power supply, if they share an equal current, ill let it continue, if one give more than the other, ill stop and probably go look for a power supply that produces more than 40A @ 5V, or just space the electrodes further apart.

[WSM]

@pdfbq

So it is OK to simply connect some of the red wires together from both supplies (and connect to Anode) and some of the black wires together from both supplies (and connect to Cathode) and switch on the two supplies at the same time (or attempt to switch on at the same time, there will be a fraction of a second difference with each, as you say). They you lower the Anode/Cathode assemble into the solution.

No need for diodes? I presume you have actually done this.

What was the amperage of each supply that you did this with and what was the actual current being drawn by the cell?

 

You could also connect one supplies black wires to one cathode, and the other supplies black wires to the other cathode and all the reds from both supplies to the anode (as described by link from Bonny)

 

Diodes will not work too well when using the five volt outputs as when the drop occurs accross the diode (0.8 volts) the Voltage will be getting too low to run the cell. You would have to start using the 12 v outputs.

 

From link:

It is possible to put two of theses supplies in parallel and isolate each supply from the rest by putting in a diodes into both leads from the supply's. You may have to use identical units (which may be hard to come by) so that the current is shared equally between units. Do not run the combined units at the max. new possible combined current as the supplies will probably not share the current equally among themselves.

Another alternative for using computer supplies in parallel is to connect all positives to the anode and connect each negative to a seperate Cathode. The Cathodes should be of equal size and spacing from the Anode and from each other. Diodes should also be placed in each supply to help isolate each supply and stop current being driven into one supply from another.

 

???

 

If you use silicon diodes the voltage drop is about 0.6 to 0.7 Vdc. Big deal! So your power supply puts out 4.3Vdc or worse yet 3.6Vdc if you use two diodes in there somewhere. According to industrial electrochemistry texts that is the industry standard voltage (3.6Vdc, that is). The voltage isn't the workhorse, but the current is.

 

Voltage is like pressure and current is like volume. We need lots of volume or quantity of electrons (current) and just enough "pressure" (voltage) to overcome other forces that would prevent the best environment for chlorate production. Don't worry about lower voltage, just be concerned about getting enough current to do the job.

 

WSM

[pdfbq]

@pdfbq

So it is OK to simply connect some of the red wires together from both supplies (and connect to Anode) and some of the black wires together from both supplies (and connect to Cathode) and switch on the two supplies at the same time (or attempt to switch on at the same time, there will be a fraction of a second difference with each, as you say). They you lower the Anode/Cathode assemble into the solution.

No need for diodes? I presume you have actually done this.

What was the amperage of each supply that you did this with and what was the actual current being drawn by the cell?

I put all the red wires and all the black from one power supply together to one big red wire and one big black wire and then put these big black and red wires again together at the anode/cathode.

When the substrate is cold you just can switch them on because amps are below 30A of so but when the liquor is hot you have to lower them in.

My cell runs at some point at 40+ amps.. one supply did about 25A the other 15A.

Diodes are not needed but resistors are I believe. I heard people with computer power supplies that run only for two weeks. My two power supplies with resistors are still alive (after LOADS of chlorate and perc)

 

Diodes are there if i remember correctly when using stainless steel and having blackouts in your region.

Edited November 10, 2011 by pdfbq

[frank]

Great piece of info. about connecting computer power supplies in parallel.

It is good to have diodes if using Manganese Dioxide anodes as a power cut will ruin the anode. The problem with diodes with 5 volt power supplies is that voltage may be a bit scarse after the diode goes in. Perhaps computer power supplies have a diode (or equivalent thereof) in the circuit so there may be no need to connect a diode, if you think the anode or cathode needs a diode (for power cuts).

 

If there is not a good lid on the Chlorate cell you need to keep the power supply (and anything else you care about that can corrode) well away from the cell.

[frank]

Great piece of info. about connecting computer power supplies in parallel.

It is good to have diodes if using Manganese Dioxide anodes as a power cut will ruin the anode. The problem with diodes with 5 volt power supplies is that voltage may be a bit scarse after the diode goes in. Perhaps computer power supplies have a diode (or equivalent thereof) in the circuit so there may be no need to connect a diode, if you think the anode or cathode needs a diode (for power cuts).

 

Computer power supplies are often killed with the spray that they suck into themselves (I guess). If there is not a good lid on the Chlorate cell you need to keep the power supply (and anything else you care about that can corrode) well away from the cell. Beginners often have an open bucket with the supply beside the bucket.

 

@WSM I totally agree with what you are saying.

It's just that very often with (shitty) chlorate cells it can sometimes be a fact that the (5 - 0.7) = 4.3 volts is not enough voltage to shove in the current that you would like (to give the current density you would like on the anode).

Most amateur cell will not have the anode and cathode spaced a few mm apart (like industry). Often wires are a bit too thin and connections not great (especially with beginners!!!!!!!!, (wires wrapped around Anode/Cathods etc)). This all 'wastes' Voltage. Some power diodes (when conducting a decent current (few tens of amps) drop closer to one volt. Two power diodes like that in a 5 volt supply and your chlorate cell will get bugger all current into it no matter how well built it is.

Edited November 10, 2011 by frank

[Arthur]

Once you pass more than single figures of amps you need to consider good cables for two reasons.

1/ IR losses cost cell current and waste heat

2/ If the PSU is too close to the cell it WILL get corroded and WILL destroy itself. -Costing you a new psu.

 

SO good wires and good connectors will keep the heat down and the current in the cell rather than used as heat!

Exceed 20 amps and to minimise losses something like 4AWG wire -small starter motor cable- with well crimped ring terminals will be very beneficial.

 

Put the PSU on an air circuit that passes clean air, or the fumes will etch the PCB away.

[WSM]

Once you pass more than single figures of amps you need to consider good cables for two reasons.

1/ IR losses cost cell current and waste heat

2/ If the PSU is too close to the cell it WILL get corroded and WILL destroy itself. -Costing you a new psu.

SO good wires and good connectors will keep the heat down and the current in the cell rather than used as heat!

Exceed 20 amps and to minimise losses something like 4AWG wire -small starter motor cable- with well crimped ring terminals will be very beneficial.

Put the PSU on an air circuit that passes clean air, or the fumes will etch the PCB away.

 

True,... mostly.

 

The 4 AWG cable will handle between 90 Amps and 140 Amps depending on your setup. In my July experiment, I used 10 AWG wire leads to my electrodes with a 30 Amp power supply which fed up to 24 Amps and everything ran cool (except the cell) without a fan. Even the power supply didn't require a fan, which impressed me. I was also very happy with the tin filled tubular titanium leads on the electrodes because they performed well and didn't heat enough to cause the plastic compression fittings they ran through any problems at all.

 

I didn't isolate my power supply from the cell, but I did run it outdoors for the ~36 hours it ran (before the current dropped to about half and I shut the experiment down). All in all a very successful test. No salt problems, but then I used a PVC lid on the cell and vented the cell fumes away from the setup.

 

WSM

[WSM]

@WSM I totally agree with what you are saying.

It's just that very often with (shitty) chlorate cells it can sometimes be a fact that the (5 - 0.7) = 4.3 volts is not enough voltage to shove in the current that you would like (to give the current density you would like on the anode).

Most amateur cell will not have the anode and cathode spaced a few mm apart (like industry). Often wires are a bit too thin and connections not great (especially with beginners!!!!!!!!, (wires wrapped around Anode/Cathods etc)). This all 'wastes' Voltage. Some power diodes (when conducting a decent current (few tens of amps) drop closer to one volt. Two power diodes like that in a 5 volt supply and your chlorate cell will get bugger all current into it no matter how well built it is.

 

Hi Frank,

 

The thin wires don't matter, if they're solidly connected to a heavy enough buss (larger copper conductor) to conduct the current to the electrodes. I use ring terminals, well crimped to the wires, and bolt them to the electrode leads. All of us need to be aware of how well we connect these conductors to the leads, to be sure they're tight and secure for the best connection and low losses. Loose connections manifest themselves as heat and wasted energy .

 

Beginners (and all of us) need to avoid poor electrical connections, to get the best performance from our power supplies.

 

WSM

[oldmanbeefjerky]

well lucky for me i dont need to worry about either of those problems. my wire is a single strand of 2 or 3 mm copper wire, and i already have a fan blowing on the cell away from the PSU, to lower the cell temp, dry out any solution on the lid before it thinks about creeping down the sides, cool cathode connections (until now i didnt bolt the wire on), and stop the chlorine gas from entering the PSU.

[pyrojig]

@ WSM

The 4 AWG cable will handle between 90 Amps and 140 Amps depending on your setup. In my July experiment, I used 10 AWG wire leads to my electrodes with a 30 Amp power supply which fed up to 24 Amps and everything ran cool (except the cell) without a fan. Even the power supply didn't require a fan, which impressed me. I was also very happy with the tin filled tubular titanium leads on the electrodes because they performed well and didn't heat enough to cause the plastic compression fittings they ran through any problems at all.

 

 

This is great news. I too am excited to get away from the flat strap and work on a tubular design to get the most juice to the electrodes as well as perfectly seal the post from salt creep. I have had amazing luck with a THICK layer of jb weld as a barrier for my flat Ti strap where it enters the cell. It adds structural strength as well as a good seal. But the down side is, it too degrades and will need to be sanded off with new Jb weld applied afterward to keep the salt creep from getting by( once every other month).

 

What are you running that doensnt need a fan to cool it? It must have large heat sinks to shed the heat created by the resistance.

[oldmanbeefjerky]

Im not sure if anyone took notice of when i said this last, but i pretty much eliminated salt creep on the titanium straps, simply by smearing a ring of oil around the middle of the strap (between the lid and the connection), salt just stops at the grease, and thats that. obviously a tubular electrode is much better that just smearing some grease on your electrode, but still its worth trying, those of us who are using straps.

The same went for salt creep around the sides of the cell, but it ended up building up so much at the oil that it would form large hollow bubbles (like you sometimes get with potato chips), which drop off the side of the cell.

Edited November 16, 2011 by oldmanbeefjerky

[WSM]

Im not sure if anyone took notice of when i said this last, but i pretty much eliminated salt creep on the titanium straps, simply by smearing a ring of oil around the middle of the strap (between the lid and the connection), salt just stops at the grease, and thats that. obviously a tubular electrode is much better that just smearing some grease on your electrode, but still its worth trying, those of us who are using straps.

The same went for salt creep around the sides of the cell, but it ended up building up so much at the oil that it would form large hollow bubbles (like you sometimes get with potato chips), which drop off the side of the cell.

 

Using a heavy grease to stop salt creep is a unique concept (I haven't seen it mentoned anywhere but here); nice discovery, OMBJ.

 

Though I am loath to add liquid oil to my cell (or any "contaminant" for that matter), the use of grease which would stay put and not disperse itself around the cell sounds better. I wonder if parafin wax or some other (high melting point) type of wax would work as well? If so, the risk of contamination would be greatly reduced and make this whole idea more attractive to me.

 

The main thing is to make sure the leads or solution don't get hot enough to cause the "salt creep stopper" to flow and move around the cell. That's why I wonder about using wax instead of oil or grease; ideally it would just float on top of the cell liquor, be easily removed and not spead on top of it as oil would. Another thing is to research the material used to be sure it is compatible with, and not affected by, the cell liquids (we wouldn't want to create a monster in the process! ).

 

Since Swede demonstrated the concept of using filled, tubular leads through modified compression fittings; I have adopted that method to control salt creep and tooled up to use it in my cells. This idea of using a chemical barrier instead is a less involved and costly approach (as long as it doesn't cause other problems).

 

WSM

[pyrojig]

I believe as WSM said , the use of oil on a hot cell seems like a possible contaminate. I prefer to use of something solid and or dry.

Another thought WSM ... a layer of melted wax stopping the salt creep may indeed work very well, but what happens when you pull electrodes out? They to will be coated and will be a terrible pain to clean. I do like the tubular design your working with and wish to adopt it as well for my applications. It is the best I have seen so far.

 

Using a heavy grease to stop salt creep is a unique concept (I haven't seen it mentoned anywhere but here); nice discovery, OMBJ.

 

Though I am loath to add liquid oil to my cell (or any "contaminant" for that matter), the use of grease which would stay put and not disperse itself around the cell sounds better. I wonder if parafin wax or some other (high melting point) type of wax would work as well? If so, the risk of contamination would be greatly reduced and make this whole idea more attractive to me.

 

The main thing is to make sure the leads or solution don't get hot enough to cause the "salt creep stopper" to flow and move around the cell. That's why I wonder about using wax instead of oil or grease; ideally it would just float on top of the cell liquor, be easily removed and not spead on top of it as oil would. Another thing is to research the material used to be sure it is compatible with, and not affected by, the cell liquids (we wouldn't want to create a monster in the process! ).

 

Since Swede demonstrated the concept of using filled, tubular leads through modified compression fittings; I have adopted that method to control salt creep and tooled up to use it in my cells. This idea of using a chemical barrier instead is a less involved and costly approach (as long as it doesn't cause other problems).

 

WSM

[oldmanbeefjerky]

My anode was actually very hot. the oil i used was some kind of engine oil for high performance engines, all i did was lightly dab a bit of oil on my finger, and wipe the oil on the electrode, being sure that the film of oil was so thin that it was it was unnoticeable side on. the oil stayed where i put it, it didn't really sink down the metal, and it did the job. because it was so thin though, it disappeared visually after 4 days, the electrodes though were at about 40-60 Celsius though, so evaporation didn't come as a shock, but even then the oil still blocked the salt creep. Also, as a matter of fact, i checked the cell afterwards for any oil, and there was none there whatsoever.

Also im doubtful that any grease not intended for use at high temperatures will work. high performance Engine oil is pretty much the only thing i could see working for this.

 

Of course, i came up with another idea i would find much more plausible for a permanent cell, i just need to practice some more in PVC welding. What ill do is weld a short length of pvc pipe over where each electrode sticks out, ill use molten pvc to fill out the gaps, between the electrode and the pvc lid as best i can, then i will fill the short length of pipe with water. any gas that manages to bubble through wont carry its salty vapors up through the water, that is if any does at all. hopefully the pressure of the cell will prevent the water from leaking down. if not, i can always refill it

That way however i did plan on adding other stuff onto the cell, with the water ring really just being an extra.

[WSM]

My anode was actually very hot. the oil i used was some kind of engine oil for high performance engines, all i did was lightly dab a bit of oil on my finger, and wipe the oil on the electrode, being sure that the film of oil was so thin that it was it was unnoticeable side on. the oil stayed where i put it, it didn't really sink down the metal, and it did the job. because it was so thin though, it disappeared visually after 4 days, the electrodes though were at about 40-60 Celsius though, so evaporation didn't come as a shock, but even then the oil still blocked the salt creep. Also, as a matter of fact, i checked the cell afterwards for any oil, and there was none there whatsoever.

Also im doubtful that any grease not intended for use at high temperatures will work. high performance Engine oil is pretty much the only thing i could see working for this.

Of course, i came up with another idea i would find much more plausible for a permanent cell, i just need to practice some more in PVC welding. What ill do is weld a short length of pvc pipe over where each electrode sticks out, ill use molten pvc to fill out the gaps, between the electrode and the pvc lid as best i can, then i will fill the short length of pipe with water. any gas that manages to bubble through wont carry its salty vapors up through the water, that is if any does at all. hopefully the pressure of the cell will prevent the water from leaking down. if not, i can always refill it

That way however i did plan on adding other stuff onto the cell, with the water ring really just being an extra.

 

Those are all interesting ideas and I like the creativity of your solutions to the problem. I was never able to stop salt creep with any polymer to metal "bond". Even with very close machining plus silicone RTV sealant I couldn't get the joint to quit weeping. Part of the problem is probably the different coefficient of thermal expansion for titanium and PVC! No matter how good the contact between them they appear to have, with differing temperatures between even day and night they expand and contract at different rates, adding to the difficulty. It's a sticky problem.

 

In fact, the best option I've seen (besides pyrojig's JB Weld seal) was placing a layer of epoxy on the titanium before applying the PVC with PVC cement or even silicone RTV.

 

I bet if you ever got hold of some tubular titanium and PVDF compression fittings, you'd be sold on them too. So far, it's the simplest and neatest solution if you can get the materials. The disclosure of this method by Swede opened up to me many options that otherwise wouldn't have worked without creating a mess. My whole goal was to make a system that would work without constant or frequent (daily) monitoring, once it's established. I feel I'm getting closer . Salt creep and the risk to electrical connections it poses is a major issue to me; one that compression fittings and tubular titanium leads completely solve. It wasn't easy to gather the requisite materials, but with patience and judicious eBay purchases, I was able to manage it .

 

WSM

[WSM]

I believe as WSM said , the use of oil on a hot cell seems like a possible contaminate. I prefer to use of something solid and or dry.

Another thought WSM ... a layer of melted wax stopping the salt creep may indeed work very well, but what happens when you pull electrodes out? They to will be coated and will be a terrible pain to clean. I do like the tubular design your working with and wish to adopt it as well for my applications. It is the best I have seen so far.

 

I believe the melted wax problem can be solved, but as you imply, why go there if you can get a good seal with something solid and dry?

 

WSM