oldmanbeefjerky Posted November 5, 2011 Share Posted November 5, 2011 WSM, the anodes are only broght in because, A they no longer conduct, or B, they work so badly that they dont really do anything.on oxidizing.110mb, there were a few pages showing results of fully functional pool chlorinator cells being used to make chlorate, and they werent good. i think that they only managed to make 80g over a week, and would die if ran over 1-5A, being made of inferior MMO's, like iridium titanium dioxide mixes, as well as tin oxide. i beleive, as i cannot find the page, that the full working chlorinator was used unsuccessfully. anyway, i am mainly looking at these as a source of titanium, as well as for the connections. circular titanium connections are definitely better! if most of the surface is passivated, im thinking that there will be blotches of LD on the anodes once im done. and as i said before, even working anodes make chlorate stupidly slow due to the fact that they must be run at low current densities, and their low surface area. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WSM Posted November 5, 2011 Share Posted November 5, 2011 WSM, the anodes are only broght in because, A they no longer conduct, or B, they work so badly that they dont really do anything.on oxidizing.110mb, there were a few pages showing results of fully functional pool chlorinator cells being used to make chlorate, and they werent good. i think that they only managed to make 80g over a week, and would die if ran over 1-5A, being made of inferior MMO's, like iridium titanium dioxide mixes, as well as tin oxide. i beleive, as i cannot find the page, that the full working chlorinator was used unsuccessfully. anyway, i am mainly looking at these as a source of titanium, as well as for the connections. circular titanium connections are definitely better!if most of the surface is passivated, im thinking that there will be blotches of LD on the anodes once im done. and as i said before, even working anodes make chlorate stupidly slow due to the fact that they must be run at low current densities, and their low surface area. Do you have a photo to show? It'd be nice to see what you're talking about. Thanks. WSM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WSM Posted November 5, 2011 Share Posted November 5, 2011 My box of pumps arrived yesterday. They are definitely pulled from photofinishing equipment and the bellows are full of smelly liquid to prove it. I set up a power cord and removed as much of the residual liquid as possible and proved the pumps worked. Their function is similar to the diaphragm pumps I build.More later...WSM I had a few moments so I took one of the pumps apart and cleaned it as well as I could with just water and rubbing. I believe the liquid in these pumps is sodium thiosulfite. The residue has a distinct sulfur smell. The inlet port will fit 5/16" (about 8mm) and the outlet port 1/8" (about 3mm) ID tubing with a little stretching. These look like very good pumps for the money and only use 4.5 Watts of power at 100Vac. WSM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldmanbeefjerky Posted November 6, 2011 Share Posted November 6, 2011 (edited) Do you have a photo to show? It'd be nice to see what you're talking about. Thanks. WSM i found the page which led me to what i was talking about. Though as this page says, the pool chlorinator anodes work best in low chloride concentrations, therefore cant be used to make chlorate at a reasonable rate, but having reread that, they can take high currents as i suspected, and if they arent destroyed, they probably can be plated with lead dioxide as is.http://oxidizing.110...addiox/dsa.html unfortunately i probably wont have the luck of getting one that is just salted up or clogged, since that is the kind of thing the pool shop fixes. Edited November 6, 2011 by oldmanbeefjerky Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WSM Posted November 6, 2011 Share Posted November 6, 2011 i found the page which led me to what i was talking about. Though as this page says, the pool chlorinator anodes work best in low chloride concentrations, therefore cant be used to make chlorate at a reasonable rate, but having reread that, they can take high currents as i suspected, and if they arent destroyed, they probably can be plated with lead dioxide as is.http://oxidizing.110...addiox/dsa.htmlunfortunately i probably wont have the luck of getting one that is just salted up or clogged, since that is the kind of thing the pool shop fixes. Have you considered trying to coat the laserred MMO with beta form LD? I think it occured to Swede to try it sometime (he used DeNora MMO for his LD anode). I believe, if you have the ability to do a TiO2/RuO2 MMO coating, the best approach would be to fabricate the titanium electrode substrate, coat with MMO and then plate with beta form LD. I think it would work well but I have no way to test this theory at present. WSM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tesla Posted November 7, 2011 Share Posted November 7, 2011 Hey guys, maby this is a dumb question, but I was wondering if I could use mmo meash from laserred as both an anode and cathode? Im having some trouble finding Ti thats not to $ to use for a cathode. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldmanbeefjerky Posted November 7, 2011 Share Posted November 7, 2011 no, do not do this. the MMO is coated in oxides, not the elemental metals, and this is for a good reason, which is that they are supceptable to corrosion. If you use them as a cathode, they become doped with hydrogen, and reduce, which obviously makes them weaker. at least i think thats what happens, either way, dont do it. If you need titanium, do what im doing, go ask a pool shop if they have any broken pool chlorinator cells laying about. the cathodes will almost never be damaged. Also, WSM, i beleive he did do that and succeeded. either swede or whoever made oxidizing.110mb, mentioned that a cobalt manganese coating would also work.Anyway, i know that it would work, but i dont want to use the lassered anodes. when i do this though i will be using lead acetate, with a bit of nitric acid . just a rough test to see how it would work. i want a small LD anode for converting zinc sulfate into zinc metal, as well as maybe trying to make some perchlorate, to see what i can use it for.I dont intend to make a LD anode that works all that well or lasts that long. just A LD anode Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WSM Posted November 7, 2011 Share Posted November 7, 2011 Hey guys, maby this is a dumb question, but I was wondering if I could use mmo meash from laserred as both an anode and cathode? Im having some trouble finding Ti thats not to $ to use for a cathode. Hi Tesla, What are you looking for in a cathode (dimensions wise)? Since you're in the US I may be able to help if you just need a bit. Sorry to those outside the US but international shipping is tougher than between States here. WSM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tesla Posted November 8, 2011 Share Posted November 8, 2011 (edited) Hi Tesla, What are you looking for in a cathode (dimensions wise)? Since you're in the US I may be able to help if you just need a bit. Sorry to those outside the US but international shipping is tougher than between States here. WSM Does a 4x8 inch Ti cathode sound about right or is that a little big? I have a4x10 inch anode, and am not sure if an anode and cathode of this size is overkill for a basic 5 gal bucket cell. Thank you very much I really appreciate it! Edited November 8, 2011 by Tesla Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WSM Posted November 8, 2011 Share Posted November 8, 2011 Does a 4x8 inch Ti cathode sound about right or is that a little big? I have a4x10 inch anode, and am not sure if an anode and cathode of this size is overkill for a basic 5 gal bucket cell. Thank you very much I really appreciate it! Hi Tesla, The big question is, what size power supply are you using? With an anode that size it should handle about 77 Amps with a single cathode and 154 Amps with cathodes surrounding the anode! If your power supply is smaller it may well be over-worked (and also possibly overheat the cell). If you decide to cut the anode mesh down for the 5 gallon bucket, I recommend splitting it along the length so the electrodes are deep enough to encourage good circulation in the cell from hydrogen lift. So, how many cathodes do you plan and then, what size and shape of anode? Once we figure out the details we can get the right size cathode(s). WSM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WSM Posted November 8, 2011 Share Posted November 8, 2011 Hi Tesla,The big question is, what size power supply are you using? With an anode that size it should handle about 77 Amps with a single cathode and 154 Amps with cathodes surrounding the anode! If your power supply is smaller it may well be over-worked (and also possibly overheat the cell). If you decide to cut the anode mesh down for the 5 gallon bucket, I recommend splitting it along the length so the electrodes are deep enough to encourage good circulation in the cell from hydrogen lift.So, how many cathodes do you plan and then, what size and shape of anode? Once we figure out the details we can get the right size cathode(s).WSM Actually, it's your choice. What I expressed above is a collection of opinions (and educated guess work). Let us know what you decide and I'll see if I can find an affordable cathode for you. WSM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arthur Posted November 8, 2011 Share Posted November 8, 2011 Tesla, Those electrodes will work, however they may allow you to draw enough current to fry the psu or overheat the cell. However the answer could be as simple as spacing the electrodes further apart, this way you get both the electrode voltage and some cell resistance effect helping to limit the current. Those electrodes would as WSM says be enough to drive a much bigger cell. For a play initially I wouldn't cut them down, lest you want to drive a bigger cell later. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldmanbeefjerky Posted November 8, 2011 Share Posted November 8, 2011 im considering buying some titanium wire as a third cathode, to coil on the bottom, perhaps a max of 30cm wire on the base, just to get that circulation, if i cant get a nice silent bubbler. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WSM Posted November 8, 2011 Share Posted November 8, 2011 im considering buying some titanium wire as a third cathode, to coil on the bottom, perhaps a max of 30cm wire on the base, just to get that circulation, if i cant get a nice silent bubbler. I imagine a coil of titanium wire on the bottom would be buried in crystals in fairly short order (once the cell starts producing crystals). Placing the electrodes low in the cell (but off the bottom so crystals can accumulate without shorting the electrodes) should encourage circulation by "hydrogen lift" and also by heat formed as the cell runs. If you have to have the electrodes at the top of the cell out of neccessity, then the use of a bubbler can remedy the resulting lack of circulation and keep things mixed up and not stratified due to thermal layering. WSM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
patsroom Posted November 8, 2011 Share Posted November 8, 2011 Hi Tesla, The big question is, what size power supply are you using? With an anode that size it should handle about 77 Amps with a single cathode and 154 Amps with cathodes surrounding the anode! If your power supply is smaller it may well be over-worked (and also possibly overheat the cell). If you decide to cut the anode mesh down for the 5 gallon bucket, I recommend splitting it along the length so the electrodes are deep enough to encourage good circulation in the cell from hydrogen lift. So, how many cathodes do you plan and then, what size and shape of anode? Once we figure out the details we can get the right size cathode(s). WSM Hi All, Unless I am way off base. To the best of my knowledge no matter how big the surface area of the electrodes are, the amperage can only go to the max of the power unit design. You can harm your power supply by shorting the electrodes with a direct conection of the positive and negative. Or that they are so close that they just as well be touching. When you have a larger surface area the electrodes should run cooler than when you have an undersized one. The smaller surface area heats up and that can damage them by causing the electrodes to warp, which can be so bad as to cause a short between them (again by a direct contact of the two electrodes). By moving the anode and the cathodes farther apart , that would help in increasing the resistance something like a resistor would do. That would help in a cooler running cell as well. If I am wrong please feel free to comment. Pat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frank Posted November 8, 2011 Share Posted November 8, 2011 Try and obtain a constant current power supply and use that for the cell. Choose current you want to go into the cell (via the surfacea area of the Anode and the anode current density you want to work at) and just set the supply to give that current. Make sure the cell is not too small or it may overheat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tesla Posted November 8, 2011 Share Posted November 8, 2011 (edited) Hi Tesla, The big question is, what size power supply are you using? With an anode that size it should handle about 77 Amps with a single cathode and 154 Amps with cathodes surrounding the anode! If your power supply is smaller it may well be over-worked (and also possibly overheat the cell). If you decide to cut the anode mesh down for the 5 gallon bucket, I recommend splitting it along the length so the electrodes are deep enough to encourage good circulation in the cell from hydrogen lift. So, how many cathodes do you plan and then, what size and shape of anode? Once we figure out the details we can get the right size cathode(s). WSM I think I'll just use one cathode. I'd like to try what Arthur said about spacing the electrodes father apart for more resistance, thus eliminating the need to cut the anode. My power supply is a cheap computer power supply. It says it's capable of handling 5v at 40 amps, but seeing as it's a cheap off brand I'm not sure I'd trust it running that high. Edited November 8, 2011 by Tesla Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldmanbeefjerky Posted November 8, 2011 Share Posted November 8, 2011 I imagine a coil of titanium wire on the bottom would be buried in crystals in fairly short order (once the cell starts producing crystals). Placing the electrodes low in the cell (but off the bottom so crystals can accumulate without shorting the electrodes) should encourage circulation by "hydrogen lift" and also by heat formed as the cell runs. If you have to have the electrodes at the top of the cell out of neccessity, then the use of a bubbler can remedy the resulting lack of circulation and keep things mixed up and not stratified due to thermal layering. WSM so not on the bottom ey, gotcha Come to think of it that does make more sense. I have a question, my instinct says yes, but ide rather have a second opinion, can i use two ATX PSU"s in parralell to increase amperage? and will either PSU be damaged if the current does go over the maximum for either one?Ive guestimated my cell to draw between 40 and 55A, which is close to its limit, if less, no worries, if more, then ill need a second PSU, maybe. so will it work? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bonny Posted November 9, 2011 Share Posted November 9, 2011 (edited) I think I'll just use one cathode. I'd like to try what Arthur said about spacing the electrodes father apart for more resistance, thus eliminating the need to cut the anode. My power supply is a cheap computer power supply. It says it's capable of handling 5v at 40 amps, but seeing as it's a cheap off brand I'm not sure I'd trust it running that high. If you don't trust the power supply then do as Arthur said and move the electrodes apart. IIRC my electrodes for chlorate production were about 1" apart, this was using a 20A computer power supply. Also, as you said the power supply is cheap, if you fry it, learn from it and get another. so not on the bottom ey, gotcha Come to think of it that does make more sense. I have a question, my instinct says yes, but ide rather have a second opinion, can i use two ATX PSU"s in parralell to increase amperage? and will either PSU be damaged if the current does go over the maximum for either one?Ive guestimated my cell to draw between 40 and 55A, which is close to its limit, if less, no worries, if more, then ill need a second PSU, maybe. so will it work? You probably can, but I think you'll need BIG diodes to keep all the juice going in the right direction. Edited November 9, 2011 by Bonny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WSM Posted November 9, 2011 Share Posted November 9, 2011 (edited) so not on the bottom ey, gotcha Come to think of it that does make more sense.I have a question, my instinct says yes, but ide rather have a second opinion, can i use two ATX PSU"s in parralell to increase amperage? and will either PSU be damaged if the current does go over the maximum for either one?Ive guestimated my cell to draw between 40 and 55A, which is close to its limit, if less, no worries, if more, then ill need a second PSU, maybe. so will it work? The answer is yes, if they are matched/equal to each other. Be sure they output the same voltage and current (at least) or one will "hog" the load and be overworked. Say you have two identical power supplies rated to output 5Vdc and 30A. In theory they could be connected in series to yield 10Vdc and 30A or in parallel to yield 5Vdc and 60A. I believe the greatest challenge will be getting the power supplies with equal outputs. You can hedge your bets if you get power supplies with adjustable outputs and then "tune" them to each other. If you're boosting the current, don't forget to increase the wire size (gage) to match the new rated output or you could burn up your wires ! WSM Edited November 9, 2011 by WSM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WSM Posted November 9, 2011 Share Posted November 9, 2011 (edited) If you don't trust the power supply then do as Arthur said and move the electrodes apart. IIRC my electrodes for chlorate production were about 1" apart, this was using a 20A computer power supply. Also, as you said the power supply is cheap, if you fry it, learn from it and get another. If you use undersized electrodes like I did last July, you can get them a lot closer to each other. In my July experiment (one gallon pickle jar), I used a 5Vdc, 30A supply and my anode and two cathodes (all 2" x 3") were about 1/8" apart. They did get hot and the cell ran at ~55oC at up to 24A. If your power supply can supply 100A and your electrode circuit only demands 60A, the power supply will give the 60A called for and not ever come close to overheating (and likely last a long time ) ! It all depends on the materials you have on hand and how you set it up. WSM Edited November 9, 2011 by WSM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tesla Posted November 9, 2011 Share Posted November 9, 2011 If you use undersized electrodes like I did last July, you can get them a lot closer to each other. In my July experiment (one gallon pickle jar), I used a 5Vdc, 30A supply and my anode and two cathodes (all 2" x 3") were about 1/8" apart. They did get hot and the cell ran at ~55oC at up to 24A. If your power supply can supply 100A and you electrode circuit only demands 60A, the power supply will give the 60A called for and not ever come close to overheating (and likely last a long time ) ! It all depends on the materials you have on hand and how you set it up. WSM Should have asked this earlier, is closer better thanfather in terms of electrode spacing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WSM Posted November 9, 2011 Share Posted November 9, 2011 Should have asked this earlier, is closer better thanfather in terms of electrode spacing? If everything else is good, close electrodes are more efficient, I believe. Just make sure they don't touch each other or your power supply will suffer! Also, as a rule of thumb, don't run your power supply at more than 80% of it's current rating and it should be fine (true of almost all circuits). WSM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
patsroom Posted November 9, 2011 Share Posted November 9, 2011 (edited) Should have asked this earlier, is closer better thanfather in terms of electrode spacing? The question isn't better but what works the best for your needs. The farther apart the electrodes are the lower the voltage becomes, or another way of saying the higher the resistance in the circuit of the cell. It is like putting a resistor in line of the electrode. You need to know what it is that you wish from your cell, the amperage needed, the surface area of the electrode and even if the contacts where you connect the electrodes can play a part, and the size of wiring from the power source ect.... How much salt is in the cell will determine the resistance as well. Pure water does not conduct electric as well without impurities in the liquid solution. I am not sure as to why an anode will deteriorate if the chloride level is to low in the solution when going for chlorate but it can. The same can happen when going from chlorate to prechlorate as well. So in the end you will have to decide the spacing of the electrodes based on what others have done and begin to adjust from there. I know that this answer is a little vague. So just start at about 1/4 of an inch, check what the cell is doing check how hot the electrodes become, look for bubbling and adjust from there, that is what I would advise. But I am sure there are other ways of finding what is best spacing for the electrodes. Pat Edited November 9, 2011 by patsroom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
patsroom Posted November 9, 2011 Share Posted November 9, 2011 (edited) This advise that I am about to give may help a lot of people new in this forum. I am not trying to be mean or anything like that. But I have seen alot of good questions that do need to be answered here and what I seem to think that would help to find those answers would be to read alot more. I know that sometimes a person can miss what they are looking for when they are reading and that is no problem. We are all here to help when we can. But if you would first read all of this related forum and Swede's Blog you would find alot of the answers you are hunting for. There is alot of infor out there to find and it is useful if it is applied right. So now you have my two cents worth and I hope I did not hurt anyone's feelings. Pat Edited November 9, 2011 by patsroom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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