making potassium (per) chlorate

[WSM]

The surface area of MMO mesh from 'Laserred' is about the same area as a similar piece of flat material IMO. Swede coated a piece and as far as I can remember he assumed the above or at least the mesh has a very similar (0.93 say) area to a flat piece of material of the same dimentions,

 

Absolutely right! That was one of the first things I asked Swede when I got a piece of MMO mesh from him years ago. He said he got the information from a manufacturer.

 

For calculation purposes, the surface area of the mesh is twice the surface area of a single side of the MMO mesh. If you cut a piece of MMO mesh 10cm x 10cm, the surface area of a single side is 100cm² and the total surface area is ~200cm².

 

Using this information for a cell, if you use a single cathode the maximum current (if planning on 300mA/cm²) is 30A. If using two cathodes surrounding the anode the maximum current is 60A. I used this data for my experiment about two months ago and the numbers worked very well, so the theory was proved true for me.

 

The surface area of MMO mesh is high because of the three dimensional shape of the mesh and the microscopic, very rough surface of the plating. It makes sense for manufacturers to use titanium mesh for MMO as they get the same surface area using less titanium, My preference is to use solid cathodes with the MMO mesh anode to maximize the available surface area and allow the greatest work potential with the least material used (for good economy).

 

WSM

Edited September 17, 2011 by WSM

[Bonny]

Wikipedia says it will handle up to 110C continuously without softening because it is chemically hardened unlike some other plastics like polypropylene.

HDPE is what the pool chlorine buckets are made of, and i see no erosion(being eaten away like metal) caused by that, but the plastic does become more brittle over time, and water would probably hasten that not to mention heat!

larger buckets with more water would be prone to cracking and leaking over time because the HDPE becomes brittle and water is pressing on the sides.

 

Seriously, why is everyone so concerned with (the integrity of) HDPE buckets? You COULD spend say $40 or $100 and hours and hours making a PVC cell that will last indefinitely, OR use $5 HDPE buckets. It's like a poor man's cell, but a proven idea that works great.

I ran at least 5 chlorate runs of several weeks at a time, with no (visible) damage to the bucket. The only reason I stopped using it was that I made around 50 lbs of chlorate and have enough for a long time. I still have the bucket and it looks no different than when I started. IMO, unless you are building a super cell of sorts and/or need huge amounts of chlorate, the bucket cell is the way to go.

[oldmanbeefjerky]

I make around 300-400g a batch , which is something im comfortable to stay at, maybe a little more. That's why I am making a pvc cell, since it is going to go through many more runs than your average HDPE cell, which as you said, should last indefinitely .

I suppose though , and im only guessing, the reason others are concerned, is perhaps they have put in much effort, and time in constructing or are planning to use HDPE buckets for cells and whant to know more about how they can make it last longer, even though it is cheap (though i cant find a a good one at a price ide be happy to pay when i know its not going to last).

[Arthur]

If I recall correctly, Swede made a PVC cell which would last almost for ever but the engineering was seriously high tech, probably beyond most of us. He then made the BCA for repeated use with replaceable buckets, the bucket being "machined" with a craft knife. I think his bucket proved stable in use but simply not as long term as the big cell that he developed.

 

the life of a cell bucket may also depend on the fumes, so a pH controlled cell may help cell life. The typical mode of failure would however be the failure of the bucket and this would let the electrolyte out, which could kill vegetation for miles and make the surroundings highly flammable.

[oldmanbeefjerky]

highly combustible and/Or explosive*

 

like i said, if it int going to last forever, people want to know just how long it will last!

 

Though i dont need to worry about this, since i am building a PVC cell, for this exact reason! When i make something, i make it to last, or at least be easily repaired/upgraded, which is exactly what PVC is!

 

BUT! it wouldnt hurt wrap some ductape around those HDPE buckets so that if it does leak or wear out after a long week long run, at least the bucket wont blow open, but rather slowly drip and make a salty mess around the cell which is easily cleaned up. Though im not entirely sure if the ductape will last if there is bad salt creep.

[WSM]

If I recall correctly, Swede made a PVC cell which would last almost for ever but the engineering was seriously high tech, probably beyond most of us. He then made the BCA for repeated use with replaceable buckets, the bucket being "machined" with a craft knife. I think his bucket proved stable in use but simply not as long term as the big cell that he developed.

the life of a cell bucket may also depend on the fumes, so a pH controlled cell may help cell life. The typical mode of failure would however be the failure of the bucket and this would let the electrolyte out, which could kill vegetation for miles and make the surroundings highly flammable.

 

I agree with Arthur's comments, except the "kill vegetation for miles" part. Chlorate does kill plants very efficiently, but I believe the effects would be limited to the vicinity around the cell unless sprayed over a large area. It would be wise to have a containment area to prevent ground water contamination as well. I recall Swede mentioning putting the bucket in a shallow tub used for concrete mixing (about $6 from a "Big Box Home Center") in case the bucket ruptured, to contain the electrolyte. A simple precaution that would make clean-up easier and safer.

 

I also recall Swede's rationale for the bucket cell project being universality. Most people don't have machining capability and his own experience making his super stout PVC cell (which convinced him to buy a ready-made PVC tank next time) led him to work on something he could do that other's could follow.

 

It frustrated him that most folks have access to no more sophisticated manufacturing ability than maybe a drill press, so most can't follow in his foot steps. He felt alone, I imagine. So enter: the bucket cell adapter or BCA. I think he was working on something somebody could mass produce and make available to everyone, to make home chlorate production easier.

 

I understand, if you only need to buy a bucket, an adapter, the electrodes, get a computer PS and you're off and running; how much that would encourage others to try home oxidizer production.

 

Anyway, that's the way I see it.

 

WSM

Edited September 20, 2011 by WSM

[pyrojig]

I agree with Arthur's comments, except the "kill vegetation for miles" part. Chlorate does kill plants very efficiently, but I believe the effects would be limited to the vicinity around the cell unless sprayed over a large area. It would be wise to have a containment area to prevent ground water contamination as well. I recall Swede mentioning putting the bucket in a shallow tub used for concrete mixing (about $6 from a "Big Box Home Center") in case the bucket ruptured, to contain the electrolyte. A simple precaution that would make clean-up easier and safer.

 

I also recall Swede's rationale for the bucket cell project being universality. Most people don't have machining capability and his own experience making his super stout PVC cell (which convinced him to buy a ready-made PVC tank next time) led him to work on something he could do that other's could follow.

 

It frustrated him that most folks have access to no more sophisticated manufacturing ability than maybe a drill press, so most can't follow in his foot steps. He felt alone, I imagine. So enter: the bucket cell adapter or BCA. I think he was working on something somebody could mass produce and make available to everyone, to make home chlorate production easier.

 

I understand, if you only need to buy a bucket, an adapter, the electrodes, get a computer PS and you're off and running; how much that would encourage others to try home oxidizer production.

 

Anyway, that's the way I see it.

 

WSM

 

 

I second that !!! The bucket cell is a design that needs just a couple improvements , but any person can make a running sys for cheap, and it works good. I'd rather start out this way then move up to a larger more bullet proof cell of a larger size....Or better yet a continuous cell sys. for that matter.

 

 

 

[Bonny]

I second that !!! The bucket cell is a design that needs just a couple improvements , but any person can make a running sys for cheap, and it works good. I'd rather start out this way then move up to a larger more bullet proof cell of a larger size....Or better yet a continuous cell sys. for that matter.

 

I guess a lot depends on how much (per)chlorate you need to make. I used the same bucket and produced kilos of chlorate. The goal was for perchlorate feedstock. I have made quite a bit of perc (also in a bucket cell). For me, I have cno reason to build anything more complicated and far more expensive.

[WSM]

I second that !!! The bucket cell is a design that needs just a couple improvements , but any person can make a running sys for cheap, and it works good. I'd rather start out this way then move up to a larger more bullet proof cell of a larger size....Or better yet a continuous cell sys. for that matter.

 

Speaking of continuous systems,... yesterday I put together the heart of a fluid level control circuit that I designed, and when I tested it, it worked perfectly !

 

It's designed to operate the pump that sends salt solution into the reaction chamber (which has a constant fluid level and overflows to the crystallizer). The crystallizer's fluid level fluctuates up and down and is controlled by three float switches; a low level switch which turns on and runs the pump until the high level switch is actuated and turns off the pump. The third float switch is an overflow safety switch to turn off the pump in case the high level switch fails.

 

I still need to build all the parts into a project box so this part of the project is done and I can move closer to running the experimental system . I'll build another fluid level controller for "The Monster", later. Progress is slow, but it's still progress!

 

WSM

[WSM]

I guess a lot depends on how much (per)chlorate you need to make. I used the same bucket and produced kilos of chlorate. The goal was for perchlorate feedstock. I have made quite a bit of perc (also in a bucket cell). For me, I have no reason to build anything more complicated and far more expensive.

 

Fair enough. Your goal is to produce materials to use and the bucket cell meets that need. I totally respect that.

 

I suppose I love the hunt and challenge of discovering the ways it can be done. In the process I'm ferreting out many little details that aid in the effort. I don't need the salts but I sure love learning how to make them (I have sufficient for my needs). I've always been attracted to being self-sufficient.

 

WSM

[WSM]

I second that !!! The bucket cell is a design that needs just a couple improvements , but any person can make a running sys for cheap, and it works good. I'd rather start out this way then move up to a larger more bullet proof cell of a larger size....Or better yet a continuous cell sys. for that matter.

 

The vast majority of (if not all) people who explore electrochemistry for oxidizer production, start with a batch system. Some actually take it further to explore a continuous system; which, in reality is a scaled down copy of industrial processes. It's not much different than model railroad building, except the end product has much more potential energy .

 

WSM

[pyrojig]

This is what Im talking about...

 

It is my goal to conserve as much energy as possible, while gaining the largest CE%.

Im very interested in making a sys like WSM talks about.

 

The vast majority of (if not all) people who explore electrochemistry for oxidizer production, start with a batch system. Some actually take it further to explore a continuous system; which, in reality is a scaled down copy of industrial processes. It's not much different than model railroad building, except the end product has much more potential energy .

 

WSM

[Arthur]

I think Swede's intention was to have a full stock of the technology and tools ready should incident or progress cause perc to go off the market for home constructor use. In Europe Keten appears to have (been) closed since the terror incident in Norway, as the perpetrator had purchased something from Keten before the incident. At the moment perc is still available to hobby users in the UK but this could change!

 

If I could sit here and just poke a little, perhaps some research into the manufacture of lead dioxide electrodes would enable the complete transition from chloride to perchlorate. It would be a backward step to return to all chlorate compositions with the complications and incompatibilities.

 

The current state of (our) art means that chlorate can easily be made, but perc is more useful.

[WSM]

I think Swede's intention was to have a full stock of the technology and tools ready should incident or progress cause perc to go off the market for home constructor use. In Europe Keten appears to have (been) closed since the terror incident in Norway, as the perpetrator had purchased something from Keten before the incident. At the moment perc is still available to hobby users in the UK but this could change!

If I could sit here and just poke a little, perhaps some research into the manufacture of lead dioxide electrodes would enable the complete transition from chloride to perchlorate. It would be a backward step to return to all chlorate compositions with the complications and incompatibilities.

The current state of (our) art means that chlorate can easily be made, but perc is more useful.

 

 

Hi Arthur,

 

I agree with your assessment of Swede's intentions. The availability of commercial products can be limited or stopped by economic or political pressures, but we can make our own and supply the needs of our art. It is a true joy to entertain with our art.

 

We needn't fear using chlorates, if we understand its nature and respect it. Some of the best effects are made with it. I prefer to use both chlorates and perchlorates, drawing from the strengths of each in turn. Don't fear chlorates, fear ignorance and carelessness. Use chlorates with judgement and skill, and be a better artist for it.

 

WSM

Edited September 23, 2011 by WSM

[50AE]

I actually use perchlorate no more. I admit I have however some perchlorate whistle still stored and using.

 

For me the chlorate does everything in a cheap way.

-Colored stars.

-silver streamer stars.

-H3

-flash

 

These are my main uses for it.

[WSM]

I actually use perchlorate no more. I admit I have however some perchlorate whistle still stored and using.

 

For me the chlorate does everything in a cheap way.

-Colored stars.

-silver streamer stars.

-H3

-flash

 

These are my main uses for it.

 

I also use it for colored smoke mixes. Ever notice most perchlorate blue stars seem small? Chlorate stars have a larger flame envelope and initiate at a lower temperature so cooler colors aren't as affected by black body radiation as they are with perchlorate compositions. The classic falls sticks are made with mixed flake aluminum and chlorate plus mixed with red gum and wet with alcohol, if I remember correctly.

 

Most things done with perchlorate can be done with chlorate, if you watch what you're doing. I believe when perchlorate breaks down, one of the mechanisms is three perchlorates break down to four chlorates first, then break down further as things progress (I think I read this somewhere, long ago).

 

WSM

[Potassiumchlorate]

I actually use perchlorate no more. I admit I have however some perchlorate whistle still stored and using.

 

For me the chlorate does everything in a cheap way.

-Colored stars.

-silver streamer stars.

-H3

-flash

 

These are my main uses for it.

 

I agree. Unless you have your own fireworks' business, potassium chlorate is both cheaper to buy as well as make (well, I guess my username reveals my preference for it anyway ).

[oldmanbeefjerky]

Really? perchlorate forms chlorate?!

 

I thought it directly gives up its oxygen, and forms chloride and oxygen, since the perchlorate is at 700 celcius, and getting hotter, so no chlorate could possibly form since the decomp point has been exceeded twice over, or did you mean it breaks down naturally over time in composition? because i dont think thats how it works either, because ive read in many more places, that perchlorate is more stable than chlorate, and chlorate will break down way before perchlorate will, with heat or without heat.

 

But i really want to see where this is said, because i want to learn as much about chlorate and perchlorate as i can because i am going to write my chemistry report on it.

[WSM]

I agree. Unless you have your own fireworks' business, potassium chlorate is both cheaper to buy as well as make (well, I guess my username reveals my preference for it anyway ).

 

Most of the fear of chlorates is perpetuated by well-meaning pyrotechnists when introducing the craft to newcomers. Many buy into it to the point of being lulled into a false sense of security about using perchlorates instead.

 

It's important to realize that perchlorates have hazardous incompatibilities, too. It is wise to treat them all as sensitive and potentially disasterous until you get a real sense of the character and nature of the materials you're dealing with. When experimenting with unknowns, work in very small and controlled amounts (a small accident is easy to walk away from, a big one... not so much). Run as many sensitivity experiments as you can to get a feel for what the true characteristics of the materials are. Do your homework before you start; good reference books are well worth the expense and will save you (from having to answer uncomfortable questions and other bad experiences, plus pain and suffering).

 

Chlorates are not the boogey-man they're made out to be. They are a wild animal that can be tamed, but don't turn your back on them !

 

WSM

[WSM]

Really? perchlorate forms chlorate?!

 

I thought it directly gives up its oxygen, and forms chloride and oxygen, since the perchlorate is at 700 celcius, and getting hotter, so no chlorate could possibly form since the decomp point has been exceeded twice over, or did you mean it breaks down naturally over time in composition? because i dont think thats how it works either, because ive read in many more places, that perchlorate is more stable than chlorate, and chlorate will break down way before perchlorate will, with heat or without heat.

 

But i really want to see where this is said, because i want to learn as much about chlorate and perchlorate as i can because i am going to write my chemistry report on it.

 

I believe the reference I recalled expressed the process as transitory during the breakdown at elevated temperatures. It's that the perchlorate doesn't just totally disassociate (like a salt does when dissolved in water, becoming separate ions in solution), but transitions to other forms in the break down process as the reaction progresses. It's that everything goes in steps (even if very fast steps) and in order, not just an instantaneous separation.

 

It makes sense; we build up oxidizers in steps. They break down in steps. It's nature's way.

 

WSM

[Mumbles]

It may work that way when there is something there to "steal" away the oxygen. However one of the less than efficient ways to make perchlorate is to heat chlorate slightly above it's melting point IIRC. The IIRC is in reference to the temperature, not the reaction. 4 molecules of chlorate will transform in to 3 molecules of perchlorate and 1 molecule of chloride.

 

Really? perchlorate forms chlorate?!

 

I thought it directly gives up its oxygen, and forms chloride and oxygen, since the perchlorate is at 700 celcius, and getting hotter, so no chlorate could possibly form since the decomp point has been exceeded twice over, or did you mean it breaks down naturally over time in composition? because i dont think thats how it works either, because ive read in many more places, that perchlorate is more stable than chlorate, and chlorate will break down way before perchlorate will, with heat or without heat.

 

But i really want to see where this is said, because i want to learn as much about chlorate and perchlorate as i can because i am going to write my chemistry report on it.

 

You may want to check on your melting and decomposition points there. I believe that chlorate is probably along the decomposition pathway of perchlorates, either thermally or photolyticly. It very well, and likely is a transiently formed species. Just because it's not stable, doesn't mean it doesn't exist. You should know that from all the bull shit you were spewing earlier about KNO5, Iron (XII) Oxide, etc, etc.

[oldmanbeefjerky]

True.

[pyrojig]

I have to say I agree that chlorates have received a bad rap in the past. I believe this is due to the lack of knowledge of these chems and the lack of ultra pure chems like sulfur( the older stuff used to be acidic) . It is a wonderful chem. as stated above, it has a broad range of uses that other oxidizers cant compete with. I love the fact that any person had the ability to make their own if they wish to take the challenge. Sensitivity has its uses as well. I find the dark flash (50/50) antimony/chlorate to be a great for friction igniter 's and ematches.

[WSM]

I have to say I agree that chlorates have received a bad rap in the past. I believe this is due to the lack of knowledge of these chems and the lack of ultra pure chems like sulfur( the older stuff used to be acidic) . It is a wonderful chem. as stated above, it has a broad range of uses that other oxidizers cant compete with. I love the fact that any person had the ability to make their own if they wish to take the challenge. Sensitivity has its uses as well. I find the dark flash (50/50) antimony/chlorate to be a great for friction igniter 's and ematches.

 

And don't forget torpedos! I would caution to use a small part of BaCO₃ to neutralize any acid present (or formed). We wouldn't want our torpedos to go off prematurely . Now the black button on top of a railway fusee is basically chlorate, antimony sulfide and dextrin, and is considered a "safety match" type composition, requiring a striker made with a percentage (usually about 50%) of red phosphorus to actuate properly (see either "Modern Pyrotechnics" or "Military and Civilian Pyrotechnics" by Ellern).

 

Chlorate is great stuff; just understand it's properties and respect it, and all will be well .

 

WSM

Edited September 30, 2011 by WSM

[WSM]

Speaking of continuous systems,... yesterday I put together the heart of a fluid level control circuit that I designed, and when I tested it, it worked perfectly !

It's designed to operate the pump that sends salt solution into the reaction chamber (which has a constant fluid level and overflows to the crystallizer). The crystallizer's fluid level fluctuates up and down and is controlled by three float switches; a low level switch which turns on and runs the pump until the high level switch is actuated and turns off the pump. The third float switch is an overflow safety switch to turn off the pump in case the high level switch fails.

I still need to build all the parts into a project box so this part of the project is done and I can move closer to running the experimental system . I'll build another fluid level controller for "The Monster", later. Progress is slow, but it's still progress!

WSM

 

Today I built the circuit into a project box and (except for the terminations that need to be installed for connecting the leads from the three float switches) it's basically complete.

 

 

I put everything in a used PVC project box pictured above. The power cord is an old extension cord converted for the purpose of supplying power to the circuit. On the upper left hand side is the power switch for the whole thing and, going clockwise, the power outlet for the pump, the indicating light for when the outlet has power (and the pump is running) and lastly, the panel mounted circuit breaker I'm using to protect the pump circuit plugged into this box.

 

If I can find a program to help me draw a ladder diagram, I'll post the circuit so others can make one similar if they want to. I still need to build the heat well and populate it; then the experimental system will be fundamentally complete and ready to have it's trial run. I calculate it's total volume at about 8 gallons (about 30 liters)! And this is the small one!!! The Monster will dwarf it . Sheesh! I must be nuts.

 

WSM

Edited October 1, 2011 by WSM