WSM Posted September 10, 2011 Posted September 10, 2011 (edited) Swede's main project (well blogged!) was a CPVC cell fabricated from thick sheet and welded. His second project (also well blogged) was his Bucket Cell, made from a snap top bucket (HDPE) with a CPVC bucket cell adaptor (BCA) fitted (all well blogged). Take a big (5 gal) bucket with snap top lid which can be disposed after several runs, and fit a well engineered rigid CPVC plate with all the electrodes, stirrers, vents etc. Swede used Titanium screws for corrosion resistance and viton gaskets. The BCA should work well for a lifetime, the bucket may need replacement after a few runs. ...And with filled tubular titanium leads in PVDF compression fittings (ala Swede's blogs, also), salt creep should be very well minimized. I suppose the PVC cell is the next, more advanced cell. PVC allows many more options if you have the tools to work with it. I've learned a lot in the process; but again, I'm taking a lot of time and learning one step at a time. When I look back, I'm amazed at how many steps there are (and are there ). WSM Edited September 10, 2011 by WSM
WSM Posted September 10, 2011 Posted September 10, 2011 Swede's main project (well blogged!) was a CPVC cell fabricated from thick sheet and welded. His second project (also well blogged) was his Bucket Cell, made from a snap top bucket (HDPE) with a CPVC bucket cell adaptor (BCA) fitted (all well blogged). Take a big (5 gal) bucket with snap top lid which can be disposed after several runs, and fit a well engineered rigid CPVC plate with all the electrodes, stirrers, vents etc. Swede used Titanium screws for corrosion resistance and viton gaskets. The BCA should work well for a lifetime, the bucket may need replacement after a few runs. I didn't recall Swede using a CPVC plate for his Bucket Cell Adapter (AKA- BCA), and just checked. He used PVC plate. CPVC would be unneccessary and would be expensive. Since the gasket isn't in direct contact with the liquor, I wonder if aquarium silicone tubing (or some other pliable tubing) couldn't be used for a gasket? His first setup was for flat leads on the electrodes but I suspect he intended to convert to filled tubular leads later. Swede's description of the filled tubular leads in compression fittings opened things up for me. Before that I couldn't conceive of a cell without leaks and salt creep. Now I see it as the only way to go if you want a neat setup without corroding electrical connections. The tubular leads are well worth the effort in my opinion. WSM
oldmanbeefjerky Posted September 11, 2011 Posted September 11, 2011 (edited) like i said many posts ago i have found a solution to salt creep, or at least half a solution. smearing a greasy oily substance like grease or oil, which wont evaporate at high temperatures, like engine oil, will stop salt creep like water will a trail of ants. its why i have stopped worrying about the steel bolts i use for the electrical connections, being corroded. Also WSM, i said everything i know.the cell was hot, the current stopped dropping and stabilized at an average of 11A . the cell was not producing any more chlorate each day, except what was expected to precipitate out because of the water loss which was about +50mL per day, there was no more chlorine smell that you would expect from pool water and that's it. there was zero damage on the anode. Edited September 11, 2011 by oldmanbeefjerky
WSM Posted September 11, 2011 Posted September 11, 2011 Also WSM, i said everything i know. the cell was hot, the current stopped dropping and stabilized at an average of 11A . the cell was not producing any more chlorate each day, except what was expected to precipitate out because of the water loss which was about +50mL per day, there was no more chlorine smell that you would expect from pool water and that's it. there was zero damage on the anode. Hi OMBJ, I wonder what would happen if you added more salt solution? Since you describe no more chlorine smell, was the chloride depleated to where everything came to a halt? Again, I wonder... WSM
oldmanbeefjerky Posted September 13, 2011 Posted September 13, 2011 I have come across a car battery which i shall recharge and then harvest its resources from.It has crossed my mind that i may be able to make a somewhat usable sodium chlorate cell from the battery, with some effort, such as removing some of the separators and using some of the cell sections as filters and other useful things . Does anyone know of this being done before?I have about as much doubt as i do hope for the idea. only temporarily though.
WSM Posted September 13, 2011 Posted September 13, 2011 I have come across a car battery which i shall recharge and then harvest its resources from.It has crossed my mind that i may be able to make a somewhat usable sodium chlorate cell from the battery, with some effort, such as removing some of the separators and using some of the cell sections as filters and other useful things . Does anyone know of this being done before?I have about as much doubt as i do hope for the idea. only temporarily though. I believe there are problems with using battery components for a cell, but can't quote any just now. Perhaps others have some input here. I wonder why you couldn't make a bucket cell dedicated to sodium chlorate using the same materials used for a potassium chlorate cell? For that matter, I'd use the same PVC components for the cells that I'm designing for KClO3; probably with only minor changes, if any (the bucket cell idea just sounds simpler to put together with a ready made, easy to find, container). If you follow through with the idea of using lead acid battery parts for a cell, document what you do with photos and written words so others will learn from your work. WSM
Arthur Posted September 13, 2011 Posted September 13, 2011 Most comment about used car batteries relates to the lead dioxide on one of the plates for use in a perc cell as a lead dioxide electrode -however the lead dioxide actually present in a car battery is in the wrong crystal form and it doesn't work in a perc cell. IMO car batteries are not worth the bother.
WSM Posted September 13, 2011 Posted September 13, 2011 Most comment about used car batteries relates to the lead dioxide on one of the plates for use in a perc cell as a lead dioxide electrode -however the lead dioxide actually present in a car battery is in the wrong crystal form and it doesn't work in a perc cell. IMO car batteries are not worth the bother. Yes, the LD in a lead-acid battery is the alpha form and porous. What is desired for a perchlorate cell is the hard, crystalline beta form of LD. WSM
oldmanbeefjerky Posted September 14, 2011 Posted September 14, 2011 I meant i just wanted to use the plastic, i plan on salvaging the lead and acid for other things.the arrangments of the individual cells seem all to perfect to pass up.
WSM Posted September 14, 2011 Posted September 14, 2011 I meant i just wanted to use the plastic, i plan on salvaging the lead and acid for other things.the arrangments of the individual cells seem all to perfect to pass up. Let us know how it works out . WSM
oldmanbeefjerky Posted September 14, 2011 Posted September 14, 2011 ill have to take that as a No for if anyone else has done it before then I will let you know how things work out once i try it. fortunately the plastic the battery is made out of doesnt decompose and begin to burns until very high tempurature compared to most other plastics, so i should easily be able to seal up any leaks in the electrode connections with a soldering iron or blowtorch with the excess plastic from the removed cell walls!
oldmanbeefjerky Posted September 14, 2011 Posted September 14, 2011 (edited) I have deemed it as a failure in obtaining a polypropylene cell, however, polypropylene is particularly useful because of the large tempurature gap between when it melts and when it is able to combust, so i think i will save all the plastic, and try building a pneumatically powered polypropylene gun (like a hot glue gun, not a gun that shoots things), which will be extremely useful for sealing gaps and building bits used in chlorate cells, because it is about at chlorine resistant as PVC, so much so that it can even be used as a plastic substrate. Ill call this a half success! Edited September 14, 2011 by oldmanbeefjerky
WSM Posted September 14, 2011 Posted September 14, 2011 I have deemed it as a failure in obtaining a polypropylene cell, however, polypropylene is particularly useful because of the large tempurature gap between when it melts and when it is able to combust, so i think i will save all the plastic, and try building a pneumatically powered polypropylene gun (like a hot glue gun, not a gun that shoots things), which will be extremely useful for sealing gaps and building bits used in chlorate cells, because it is about at chlorine resistant as PVC, so much so that it can even be used as a plastic substrate.Ill call this a half success! I'm not sure how well polypropylene will work as a cell, but in my small experimental continuous system, the crystalizer is made of polypropylene. It is the cut-off bottom of a square tank whose top was cracked in shipment. The tank is (was) 18" square on the outside with an approximately 5/16" wall (the wall thickness varies). The highth is 24" and if adequate for service as a cell, would hold 100+ liters of salt solution. I've only considered using it as a salt water preparation and storage tank, but may have to re-think that if PP would work as a cell material. What in the world would anyone do with so much chlorate?! A five gallon bucket cell could easily produce 200-300 pounds of chlorate a year (if run all year). A group of active amateurs would be hard pressed to use all that could be produced by a 100 liter cell (except in Malta, maybe ). WSM
oldmanbeefjerky Posted September 14, 2011 Posted September 14, 2011 well, i think it will work. If it has been proven to work as a plastic substrate, then it will have obviously have passed the test (of which's name i forgot), which involves infusing it with lead dioxide and electrolyzing it in conditions harsher than one would find in the cell. Anyway, im not using it AS a cell anymore, just as a sealant, and maybe some other unnecessary things like a bubbler for the air, or an electrode spacer. things that aren't required, but make the cell better. Anything as an excuse to make things from plastic
WSM Posted September 15, 2011 Posted September 15, 2011 well, i think it will work. If it has been proven to work as a plastic substrate, then it will have obviously have passed the test (of which's name i forgot), which involves infusing it with lead dioxide and electrolyzing it in conditions harsher than one would find in the cell.Anyway, im not using it AS a cell anymore, just as a sealant, and maybe some other unnecessary things like a bubbler for the air, or an electrode spacer. things that aren't required but make the cell better. Anything as an excuse to make things from plastic The only downside to using polypropylene is it resists solvents so it has to be welded and can't be glued . It can be plumbed with bulkhead fittings though, so all is not lost . WSM
WSM Posted September 15, 2011 Posted September 15, 2011 well, i think it will work. If it has been proven to work as a plastic substrate, then it will have obviously have passed the test (of which's name i forgot), which involves infusing it with lead dioxide and electrolyzing it in conditions harsher than one would find in the cell.Anyway, im not using it AS a cell anymore, just as a sealant, and maybe some other unnecessary things like a bubbler for the air, or an electrode spacer. things that aren't required, but make the cell better. Anything as an excuse to make things from plastic I feel the need to research polypropylene a bit better to determine it's compatibility with the environment in a cell. I'd hate to invest a lot of time, effort and money to discover it isn't a good choice . WSM
WSM Posted September 16, 2011 Posted September 16, 2011 (edited) I feel the need to research polypropylene a bit better to determine it's compatibility with the environment in a cell. I'd hate to invest a lot of time, effort and money to discover it isn't a good choice .WSM I did a little investigating of polypropylene and it is as compatible with hypochlorite as PVC and may well make an acceptable cell material. It is good to ~80oC if I remember correctly and that is even better than PVC (60oC). It is not UV resistant so it should be protected from sunlight. It might work but some testing will confirm my opinion. WSM Edited September 16, 2011 by WSM
pyrojig Posted September 16, 2011 Posted September 16, 2011 Nice find... Do you have any idea what HDPE will handle? That is what the home depot buckets are made of... I think they can handle quiet a bit of heat. My cell runs around 60*C and shows no signs of wear or weakness ( softening ) of the lid or bucket.I did a little investigating of polypropylene and it is as compatible with hypochlorite as PVC and may well make an acceptable cell material. It is good to ~80oC if I remember correctly and that is even better than PVC (60oC). It might work but some testing will confirm my opinion. WSM
oldmanbeefjerky Posted September 16, 2011 Posted September 16, 2011 Wikipedia says it will handle up to 110C continuously without softening because it is chemically hardened unlike some other plastics like polypropylene.HDPE is what the pool chlorine buckets are made of, and i see no erosion(being eaten away like metal) caused by that, but the plastic does become more brittle over time, and water would probably hasten that not to mention heat!larger buckets with more water would be prone to cracking and leaking over time because the HDPE becomes brittle and water is pressing on the sides.
oldmanbeefjerky Posted September 16, 2011 Posted September 16, 2011 yipeee!My metalwork teacher gave me one of the school welders!That model of ozito welder is deemed as unsafe, and any welders that break, are not allowed to be repaired and used in the school, nor are they allowed to leave the school in one piece.What happened was the negative input wire burnt out in about 8 stig welders , right at the surge or overload protector, i dont know what it is. And my teacher was taking them apart, so i asked if i could have one, he said no, not unless you want to take it apart and put it back together when you get home.so i took the casing off, chopped off the grounding clamp and the rod clamp and packed it into my bag, took it home, cut back 1cm of the burnt wire, reattached the connector and it was as good as it ever was! now all i need is that spot welder handle, and i can spot weld. all for practically nothing! (excluding the costs of the spot welding handle).Finnaly i can work without using the metalwork spot welder at school to spot weld together my MMO anodes and other things that might need welding, but mainly im just looking at the anodes for now
WSM Posted September 16, 2011 Posted September 16, 2011 Wikipedia says it will handle up to 110C continuously without softening because it is chemically hardened unlike some other plastics like polypropylene.HDPE is what the pool chlorine buckets are made of, and i see no erosion(being eaten away like metal) caused by that, but the plastic does become more brittle over time, and water would probably hasten that not to mention heat!larger buckets with more water would be prone to cracking and leaking over time because the HDPE becomes brittle and water is pressing on the sides. I imagine it would be prudent to run a bucket cell in a larger tub (as a catch basin) in case the bucket ruptures. I don't think anyone would enjoy ~20 liters of hypochlorites escaping . The highest temperature I'd recommend running your cell at is about 70oC, for safety. Much higher and things could get out of control quickly (my opinion at this point in time). WSM
WSM Posted September 16, 2011 Posted September 16, 2011 yipeee!My metalwork teacher gave me one of the school welders!That model of ozito welder is deemed as unsafe, and any welders that break, are not allowed to be repaired and used in the school, nor are they allowed to leave the school in one piece.What happened was the negative input wire burnt out in about 8 stig welders , right at the surge or overload protector, i dont know what it is. And my teacher was taking them apart, so i asked if i could have one, he said no, not unless you want to take it apart and put it back together when you get home.so i took the casing off, chopped off the grounding clamp and the rod clamp and packed it into my bag, took it home, cut back 1cm of the burnt wire, reattached the connector and it was as good as it ever was!now all i need is that spot welder handle, and i can spot weld. all for practically nothing! (excluding the costs of the spot welding handle).Finnaly i can work without using the metalwork spot welder at school to spot weld together my MMO anodes and other things that might need welding, but mainly im just looking at the anodes for now Excellent score on the welder. Congratulations. WSM
50AE Posted September 17, 2011 Posted September 17, 2011 Guys, I'm planning for a MMO PbO2 coating, but I don't know how to calculate the surface area of this MMO mesh. Can you help me?
oldmanbeefjerky Posted September 17, 2011 Posted September 17, 2011 (edited) ooh snap, that is tricky! im certain that there is a non mathematical method of calculating surface area of mesh. you could for instance manually measure the surface area of one <> in the mesh, and multiply it by however many there are and you will get a crude estimate.otherwise, im sure there are some tables out there or some info regarding how to measure the surface area of mesh Edited September 17, 2011 by oldmanbeefjerky
frank Posted September 17, 2011 Posted September 17, 2011 The surface area of MMO mesh from 'Laserred' is about the same area as a similar piece of flat material IMO. Swede coated a piece and as far as I can remember he assumed the above or at least the mesh has a very similar (0.93 say) area to a flat piece of material of the same dimentions,
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