oldmanbeefjerky Posted August 27, 2011 Posted August 27, 2011 It take two weeks to get to Oz from China?! That's strange, it takes the same to get all the way to the States (by air anyway). Maybe they send yours on a ship? WSM All parcels first get sent to canberra, then get after a delay for as much as 5 days they come to me. its the slowest air mail service , still i dont really care.
patsroom Posted August 27, 2011 Posted August 27, 2011 I haven't found the perfect digital temperature gage with an impervious sensor yet. If anyone comes up with something at a reasonable price, please share the information . Thanks! WSM I hope this helps. Take a 1/2 PVC pipe and cap the end insert it into the cell cap the other end drill a small hole in to the top cap to take a probe into it fill the PVC tube with clean water. With it secured in the cell ( the PVC pipe that is) seal the drilled hole. Be sure that is well into the cell to test the temp.
hillbillyreefer Posted August 27, 2011 Posted August 27, 2011 Sweet!! I had to shut down my cell this morning before work. There was a planned power outage in my area. My electrodes have been building up with crystals for the last day or so. I scraped them off, washed up the electrodes covered the cell and went to work. Just got home, the crystals were dry, weighed in at 128 grams. I mixed equal amounts of the crystals(not milled in any way) and icing sugar, and lit it, wow, what a pretty purplish flame. The cell is up and running again making more of the good stuff. Now to find a good whistle mix!
WSM Posted August 27, 2011 Posted August 27, 2011 I hope this helps. Take a 1/2 PVC pipe and cap the end insert it into the cell cap the other end drill a small hole in to the top cap to take a probe into it fill the PVC tube with clean water. With it secured in the cell ( the PVC pipe that is) seal the drilled hole. Be sure that is well into the cell to test the temp. Hi Pat, That's an interesting idea. Do you have a photograph or diagram? I wonder if it would work with a small titanium tube? I'd probably have to bond it with the cathode for a little protection from what our mentor, Swede, called the "anodic hell" which is the environment within our electrochemical cells. I will add a note about your suggestion to my Cell Designs file (with proper credit, of course). Thank you. WSM
WSM Posted August 27, 2011 Posted August 27, 2011 Sweet!! I had to shut down my cell this morning before work. There was a planned power outage in my area. My electrodes have been building up with crystals for the last day or so. I scraped them off, washed up the electrodes covered the cell and went to work. Just got home, the crystals were dry, weighed in at 128 grams. I mixed equal amounts of the crystals(not milled in any way) and icing sugar, and lit it, wow, what a pretty purplish flame. The cell is up and running again making more of the good stuff. Now to find a good whistle mix! Congratulations. I know how good it feels to have the confirmation that this really works and we're not kidding ourselves. Perhaps a potassium benzoate whistle mix with your home-made oxidizer? It should be active enough that a little petroleum jelly or mineral oil might be a good idea along with a little catalyst. It worked for Oztap. WSM
WSM Posted August 27, 2011 Posted August 27, 2011 All parcels first get sent to canberra, then get after a delay for as much as 5 days they come to me. its the slowest air mail service , still i dont really care. Well, at least they get there . Imagine how dissapointing it would be if they never arrived at all.... WSM
oldmanbeefjerky Posted August 27, 2011 Posted August 27, 2011 I just found an item i orderd 27 days ago hasnt even been shipped out yet, so i know the feeling, im feelin it right now. Negative feedback for him!
WSM Posted August 27, 2011 Posted August 27, 2011 I just found an item i orderd 27 days ago hasnt even been shipped out yet, so i know the feeling, im feelin it right now. Negative feedback for him! Have you asked him what the holdup is? I had this happen once and found out the seller had a death in the family and was gone for three weeks dealing with everything. When he got back I had my purchase in four days. Sometimes they have reasons, sometimes not. It's hard to tell. WSM
patsroom Posted August 27, 2011 Posted August 27, 2011 Hi Pat, That's an interesting idea. Do you have a photograph or diagram? I wonder if it would work with a small titanium tube? I'd probably have to bond it with the cathode for a little protection from what our mentor, Swede, called the "anodic hell" which is the environment within our electrochemical cells. I will add a note about your suggestion to my Cell Designs file (with proper credit, of course). Thank you. WSM Here is the idea behind protecting the temp probe. I all so added an air bubber so you can see it as well. Patcell ideals.bmp
Mumbles Posted August 27, 2011 Posted August 27, 2011 My one concern with a typical PVC pipe is insulation. I don't know how quickly it'd respond or equilibriate with the cell environment. Perhaps some of the fittings used for sinks may work better than "normal" PVC tubing. Titanium tubing may also work pretty well.
patsroom Posted August 28, 2011 Posted August 28, 2011 That is true the response time would be slow. But once it gets up to temp it would remain steady giving good results but not a fast response to changes. The thinner the PVC pipe the quicker the change would be of course. The PVC pipe would give good protection from the salts meaning that you can leave the probe in place not having to worry about the damage that could be done. Also if two were to be placed thru the sides, one at the top and one at the bottom you could see a difference in the heat inside of the cell as well.Same ideal just two instead of one and at different locations.cell ideals side mount.bmp
WSM Posted August 28, 2011 Posted August 28, 2011 That is true the response time would be slow. But once it gets up to temp it would remain steady giving good results but not a fast response to changes. The thinner the PVC pipe the quicker the change would be of course. The PVC pipe would give good protection from the salts meaning that you can leave the probe in place not having to worry about the damage that could be done. Also if two were to be placed thru the sides, one at the top and one at the bottom you could see a difference in the heat inside of the cell as well.Same ideal just two instead of one and at different locations. I see what you mean, but don't forget; heat rises. One temperature probe in the top of the cell and another in the crystallizer is probably all I need. I mainly want to know how hot my cell is and make sure the crystallizer is cool enough to drop out the oxidizer. Besides that, I agree with everything else. Thanks for your input. WSM
WSM Posted August 28, 2011 Posted August 28, 2011 My one concern with a typical PVC pipe is insulation. I don't know how quickly it'd respond or equilibriate with the cell environment. Perhaps some of the fittings used for sinks may work better than "normal" PVC tubing. Titanium tubing may also work pretty well. Swede used a turned piece of PTFE rod for a thermowell. That's an insulator as well, but in a situation like this where speed or fast response is not an issue it should work okay. I think a lot of options are out there, I need to explore them and find one that works. I'm already set up with titanium tubing and compression fittings. That may be my most expedient choice. Thanks. WSM
oldmanbeefjerky Posted August 28, 2011 Posted August 28, 2011 I just weighed out the chlorate total form my cell, and i i have 310g of potassium chlorate!Now i just need to mill it , and make it into coloured smoke mix because i have been dieing to dye a smoke bomb ever since i got the dye!
WSM Posted August 28, 2011 Posted August 28, 2011 I just weighed out the chlorate total form my cell, and i i have 310g of potassium chlorate!Now i just need to mill it , and make it into coloured smoke mix because i have been dieing to dye a smoke bomb ever since i got the dye! Wow, someone else who wants to do daytime fireworks with color smoke? I love it. Be prepared to take lots of photos and share ! WSM
WSM Posted August 28, 2011 Posted August 28, 2011 Yesterday I took a close look at my spot welder and realized the tips were mashed and not properly aligned. I recall Swede talking about correcting the alignment and figuring the tips on his, so I went to work on mine. I removed the tips with a wrench and chucked them up in the lathe. It was tricky getting them lined up due to the way they're cut, but I managed it. After cleaning them up and flattening the tips, I gave them a slightly rounded edge to the small flat tips (chamfered them, if you will) and then worked to align the tips to each other. I managed it, but need to test it later as I was too tired to bother last night. I'll take photos later and post them... WSM
hillbillyreefer Posted August 28, 2011 Posted August 28, 2011 (edited) I've got 100g of whistle ready to be pressed into tubes. Should have some results tonight.<br /><br />No whistle but burns well. Next attempt nozzless rocket motor, after that nozzles, then the need for more benzoate kicks in. Nozzless motor failed. Edited August 28, 2011 by hillbillyreefer
WSM Posted August 28, 2011 Posted August 28, 2011 I've got 100g of whistle ready to be pressed into tubes. Should have some results tonight.<br /><br />No whistle but burns well. Next attempt nozzless rocket motor, after that nozzles, then the need for more benzoate kicks in.Nozzless motor failed. Are you using home made chlorate for these? If so, how fine did you grind it before mixing? WSM
frank Posted August 28, 2011 Posted August 28, 2011 (edited) I tried measuring the current going into a cell today using the Kill-A-Watt (KAW) meter at the mains socket.The Dell 200 Watt computer power supply had a maximum output current on the 5V rail of 22 Amps (I exceeded this by quite a lot in the test).No current was taken from any other outputs. The supply seemed happy enough to put out 30 Amps for a time needed to do the test but would probably shut down if this high current was continued. The supply neeed 14.4 Watts when no current was taken from the 5V rail as shown on KAW meter. This was taken as the 'steady' power needed by the supply and it was deemed to be a zero % error., ie. 14.4 Watts corresponds to Zero Amps going into cell. It turns out that above approx. 10 Amps, the steady power needed by the supply seems to be in the region of as (steady) 30% of the power actually indicated on the KAW.The current 'indicated' by the KAW was obtained by subtracting 14.4 Watts from the Watts figure shown on the KAW at the various different currents and dividing by Five (Volts).All Amperages tried and reults obtained are shown below. At 0.0 Amps flowing, KAW read 14.4 Watts which corresponds to a current of Zero Amps, Zero error.At 4.5 Amps flowing, KAW read 48 Watts which corresponds to a current 6.72 Amps, a 49% error.At 11.4 Amps flowing, KAW read 88.8 Watts which corresponds to a current 14.88 Amps, a 30% error.At 19.1 Amps flowing, KAW read 139.2 Watts which corresponds to a current 24.96 Amps, a 30% error.At 30.4 Amps flowing, KAW read 211.46 Watts which corresponds to a current 39.42 Amps, a 29.7% error. The supply give out a steady 5V at all current loads, including the 30.4 Amps. There may have been some very small variation of about 60mV or so. EDIT below: The conclusions have been deleted from this post they are TOTALLY INCORRECT. The power error (30% of total power supplied to cell) is indeed varying with the current and you will need to monitor current (estimate the average as it varies from time of day, and from day to day) in order to estimate the error that must be subtracted from the kilo Watt meter reading. This will be a pain and you will be back to needing a current meter onthe cell and reading it approx. twice a day and obtaining an average reading by calculation. (Just what we are trying to avoid). It may be more accurate than obtaining current reading (current meter on cell as per usual) and averaging current reading (twice per day, say) and calculating Amper hours into cell from that figure. But the error will be unknown. Frank Edited August 29, 2011 by frank
WSM Posted August 29, 2011 Posted August 29, 2011 I tried measuring the current going into a cell today using the Kill-A-Watt (KAW) meter at the mains socket. It will work pretty good as long as you keep current from varying a very large amount and keep a highish current coming from the PSU (at least the one I used).Stay above 10 Amps (approx. exact lower value not found out) and you can go all the way up to 22 Amps(supply max). You get a flat error is this band that can simply be deducted from the total Watt hours to get the Amper hours by dividing by the cell Voltage. Use thick wires and good connections.The Dell 200 Watt computer power supply had a maximum output current on the 5V rail of 22 Amps (I exceeded this by quite a lot in the test).No current was taken from any other outputs. The supply seemed happy enough to put out 30 Amps for a time needed to do the test but would probably shut down if this high current was continued.The supply neeed 14.4 Watts when no current was taken from the 5V rail as shown on KAW meter. This was taken as the 'steady' power needed by the supply and it was deemed to be a zero % error., ie. 14.4 Watts corresponds to Zero Amps going into cell. It turns out that above approx. 10 Amps, the steady power needed by the supply seems to be in the region of as (steady) 30% of the power actually indicated on the KAW.The current 'indicated' by the KAW was obtained by subtracting 14.4 Watts from the Watts figure shown on the KAW at the various different currents and dividing by Five (Volts).All Amperages tried and reults obtained are shown below.At 0.0 Amps flowing, KAW read 14.4 Watts which corresponds to a current of Zero Amps, Zero error.At 4.5 Amps flowing, KAW read 48 Watts which corresponds to a current 6.72 Amps, a 49% error.At 11.4 Amps flowing, KAW read 88.8 Watts which corresponds to a current 14.88 Amps, a 30% error.At 19.1 Amps flowing, KAW read 139.2 Watts which corresponds to a current 24.96 Amps, a 30% error.At 30.4 Amps flowing, KAW read 211.46 Watts which corresponds to a current 39.42 Amps, a 29.7% error.The supply give out a steady 5V at all current loads, including the 30.4 Amps. There may have been some very small variation of about 60mV or so. This set up would work if current going into cell was kept above 11.4 Amps (perhaps lower, you would have to check) and you allow for the 30% error. When and if you go down towards 4.5 Amps the error starts to go more and more from the steady 30%. You would have to do a calibration with your particular set up the see what are the bounds of current that give a flat error (an error than can simply be subtracted from what the KAW says WITHOUT MONITORING THE CURRENT ON A DAILY OR HALF-DAILY BASIS!!!). This set up may not work with a linear power supply IMO, as a linear supply will dissipate more and more power (a lot more) as current increases and will may not give a flat error (around 30% is the case above) that you can simply allow for. Though the linear might just give a flat percentage error and the whole concept would work with it fine.Frank Hi Frank, So with these results you're saying my last run of the pickle jar cell (from 20A down to 11A) my maximum average error would be 30% (if my conditions matched yours using the Kill-A-Watt meter). That's very interesting. I may have to try it and see if my results match yours. If so, we may be on to something. Thanks for your work on this and sharing the observations with us. I'm curious how the commercial digital Watt-Hour meter will work in a similar set up? I'd like to see how the KAW meter compares to the commercial one. WSM
Killerinc Posted August 29, 2011 Posted August 29, 2011 (edited) has anyone seen these videos this guy makes it look easy he is using platinium anode and stainless cathode and says they give best results Edited August 29, 2011 by Killerinc
hillbillyreefer Posted August 29, 2011 Posted August 29, 2011 Are you using home made chlorate for these? If so, how fine did you grind it before mixing? WSM It just ground as fine as I could in my new coffee grinder. No idea what mesh size, it was making it's own chunks while trying to mix it with the benzo. The benzo is also old, possibly as old as 100 yrs, it came from my great, great, grandfathers pharmacy. That said it was the consistency of icing sugar. The comp was Oztap, I don't want to derail this thread. I'll start another one in the future to discuss whistle.
oldmanbeefjerky Posted August 29, 2011 Posted August 29, 2011 I'm going to have to give my mill and media a good thorough scrubbing and cleaning and the chlorate a good dessication before i mill it down into powder (lucky i have plenty of sodium hydroxide "lyeing" about ), i wonder how fine i should need to go? super fine dust or just icing sugar fine?
ausfire Posted August 29, 2011 Posted August 29, 2011 I wouldn't even be thinking about milling it without a dedicated, unused CLEAN jar and media. Exactly what media are you planning on using and what have you milled in the past with it?
oldmanbeefjerky Posted August 29, 2011 Posted August 29, 2011 well i have milled BP with it once and charcoal a few times, and the rest, has just been aluminium powder. the same media was used each time too.but i can use a bunch of chrome-steel ball bearings which have been used once for aluminium powder and once for charcoal, which are show no signs of previous residue of any sorts, which i can mill in a small HDPE jar i have lying about.
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