making potassium (per) chlorate

[WSM]

So many things would be clear and understood if a person would read the four (4) areas that are about everything we have talked about for the past few pages. I beleive that number one pages to read would be all of Swede's Blog. And secound one would be about the Chlorate Cell in Random Chats as well as all of this forum and maybe Let's take this outside in the Random Chats. But for any of this to be fully understood you would need to read from start to finish, then as you read take notes. I do it and if I am not mistaken so does WSM and Swede was always refering to his notes too!

As I can only speak for my self- I stand not on the ground but on the shoulders of those who came before me- Swede was of the best. His work was shared so that we all could learn as he grew with his knowledge. I know I would not be as far as soon as I have if it were not from Swede.

Pat

 

Well said, Pat. I agree and have learned much (and continue to learn still) by constantly referring to the writings of others (who am I kidding? I refer to my own writings also ). Swede always said his blog was like an online lab book and he continually went back and reminded himself of where his work had come from. I can see that, and all of us have benefitted from his work. Hopefully, I've been able to contribute something of worth as well...

 

WSM

[patsroom]

Hopefully, I've been able to contribute something of worth as well...

 

WSM

 

You have always able to contribute items of worth. I enjoy reading your writings as well, I find something new every so often and find something I forget at times as well. I old and I can re-read it all and still find something new.

Pat

[oldmanbeefjerky]

My cathodes in the cell are just about touching the bottom, but the anode is slightly higher than them.

this cell was the biggest i could find which i felt was suitable or my needs but my PVC cell will be bigger than this one though for sure.

 

Also frank, the reason the current is so low in my cell is just because it wont take much more than 20A. my power supply however is is capable of producing up to 40A max continuously.

 

because i have a limited supply of titanium plates, and the fact that what i have is so short, i wont be able to use the hydrogen gas developing on the cathodes to stirr the cell in my PVC cell. so i will just need to use a pump of somesorts to stirr up the water instead, since my PVC cell, will be about 10cm wider than this one, and almost twice as deep, a water pump is really the only way to go.

 

however, if i cant get a suitable pump, i can always try getting thick titanium or some other corrosion resistant wire, and use it as a third cathode, but will be protected from the liquor with a tube right from the top , down to the bottom, where i will coil it, so that it will be generating hydrogen directly from the bottom of the cell, and stirring up the water that way.

 

anther alternative altogether is to connect the warm PVC cell to a cool un heated tank, where naturally all the chlorate will want to precipitate out instead of the cell, since precipitation conditions are more favourable . i think swede did such a thing in his blog, and then had to scrap the idea because the hosing connecting the two tanks filled with chlorate and got blocked, it was either in swedes blog or an entry in oxidizing.110mb.com i think.

 

anyway, at an average rate of 50g per day i am quite happy with the way my cell is going, since its better than what i had before which was nothing

[WSM]

I found a nice way to monitor the output of my power supplies:

 

 

I connect everything through the terminal strip on the bottom; power for the meters and inputs from the power supply. The PVC box was found in a big box home center in the electrical department. I got the digital DC voltmeter (20Vdc) and the digital DC ammeter (200A for the 0-150A power supply) plus shunt from China on eBay. They take about 10 days to get here from half way around the world.

 

WSM

Edited August 25, 2011 by WSM

[patsroom]

I found a nice way to monitor the output of my power supplies:

 

 

I connect everything through the terminal strip on the bottom; power for the meters and inputs from the power supply. The PVC box was found in a large box home center in the electrical department. I got the digital DC voltmeter and the digital DC ammeter plus shunt from China on eBay. They take about 10 days to get here from half way around the world.

 

WSM

 

 

Yes! Those are good, I got one of each amp meter with shunt and volt meter from china too! I should have got a tempmeter as well thro.

Pat

[WSM]

Yes! Those are good, I got one of each amp meter with shunt and volt meter from china too! I should have got a tempmeter as well thro.

Pat

 

I haven't found the perfect digital temperature gage with an impervious sensor yet. If anyone comes up with something at a reasonable price, please share the information . Thanks!

 

WSM

Edited August 25, 2011 by WSM

[oldmanbeefjerky]

WSM do you connect your ammeters power supply directly to the 12v of your power supply?

For some reason i feel it would be a bad idea to attach my ammeter to my ATX 12V+, not sure why, so for the time being im using a rechargeable 9V.

 

also wsm, have you considered using an infrared laser temperature sensor? my mate just suggested it to me 2 hours before he went to hospital as he broke his collar bone. I think he said he found one which plugs into the temurature plug in his multimeter, basically connecting to it the same way his temperature probe does. ill have to ask him later for the specifics .

[WSM]

WSM do you connect your ammeters power supply directly to the 12v of your power supply?

For some reason i feel it would be a bad idea to attach my ammeter to my ATX 12V+, not sure why, so for the time being im using a rechargeable 9V.

also wsm, have you considered using an infrared laser temperature sensor? my mate just suggested it to me 2 hours before he went to hospital as he broke his collar bone. I think he said he found one which plugs into the temurature plug in his multimeter, basically connecting to it the same way his temperature probe does. ill have to ask him later for the specifics .

 

Hi OMBJ,

 

No, I'm not using computer power supplies, so no multi-voltage outputs. I just use discrete power sources (wall warts) for the meters. I believe the Chinese manufacturers recommend using an isolated power source for the ammeter.

 

Actually, for the last run of the modified pickle jar, I used a handheld infrared scanner I've owned for nearly twenty years. It's extremely accurate and durable but can't get wet. I'm looking for something that I can leave on (in) the system to give constant temperature reads with a digital display (either LED or LCD), similar to the amp and volt meters. Being able to output to a digital tracker would be a plus (low cost and a wide operational range [0^oC-100^oC] would be an even bigger plus). I need two of them so I can track the temperature difference between the RC and the CC. For my smaller experimental continuous system I'm using cheap aquarium digital thermometers but the range is limited (nobody freezes or boils their pet fish, intentionally ). If anyone knows of a compatible item, please list it here (I'm interested). Thanks.

 

WSM

Edited August 25, 2011 by WSM

[oldmanbeefjerky]

Darn, so does anyone here run their digital ammeters with 12v from a PC power supply? otherwise i will just have to get a current regulator to be on the safe side.

 

WSM, ill keep a look out for any digital thermometers i come across that are chloride resistant.

But maybe, you might have to use a conventional unprotected one, with a programmable board like arduino or similar, and what you do is record resistance at certain temperatures on the temperature probe while it has something on it protecting it form the chlorine, like a blob of some kind of resin or something, and then use these (resistance at 0C and 100C), to determine the temperature, or a simpler way would be to just do the math and work out how inaccurate the reading is with a normal setup.

were you able to find one though, but at a price too high for you to be willing to pay?

i imagine a standard mercury(or mercury substitute) thermometer would work, but if the glass wasnt the right kind the cell might eat through it and make a mess. But you want a digital one. this is quite a predicament your in

[Mumbles]

The first thing that came to mind was the plastic sleeves they use at the doctor's office now. I don't know how wide spread they are, but for quite a while here they've been using a digital thermometer with a plastic (presumably PE) sleeve that goes over it for sanitary purposes. It allows for pretty rapid equilibrating of the temperature. I don't know how well they specifically would stand up, but perhaps encasing the thermometer probe inside a thin walled plastic tube could do the trick. Even if it's just full of air, the temperature should equilibriate fairly quick, quick enough for a chlorate cell at least. This of course assumes the sleeve is closed off to ambient air.

[pyrojig]

That is actually a great idea Mumbles ... Im gonna give that a shot so I can leave my temp sensor in the cell and all times.

 

I have run a 5v digital amp meter off the 5v power on wire of the PS and have had no probs with the sensor showing any signs of damage or bad readings. It can be done, but it needs to be wired right, or it will burn up. I had plan that showed about 4x diff ways to wire the meter. It had one diagram for the digital meter to be wired directly to the PS that was being used for the cell.

 

Here is my setup for the mean time:

http://i918.photobucket.com/albums/ad24/pyrojig/SNC01182.jpg

Edited August 25, 2011 by pyrojig

[frank]

 

 

As for CE, doesn't it average or do you get a curve as it runs? If you meter the Watt/hours of the total run and weigh the dried product, you should be able to get a fairly accurate calculation, no?

 

WSM

 

How are you going to measure Watt hours? Surly it's easier to measure Amps.

If you want accurate CE figures it is difficult to get them with a varying current. (current starting at (say) 10 amps and going down to 5 amps at the end of run. But its no big deal if you do not get accurate CE figures, most folks don't really care.

If you want accurate CE figures and current is varying buy a Coulomb meter. That's more expense. The best way (if you want accurate CE figures) is to get a constant current supply.

CE explained here if anyone want's it.

 

http://www.oxidizing.110mb.com/chlorate/runtime.html

 

Frank

 

 

 

[Mumbles]

I really can't believe I'm saying this. I was trying to think about this a little more, and I was worried that the sealed edges of the plastic bags or disposable sleeves may leak eventually. I don't know if it was the late hours I was working, or the beer I had when I got home, or the only thing on Showtime past 1am but I had an idea. They happen to make polyethylene male prophylactics that I believe are single piece construction. It might give the significant other the wrong idea about you REALLY loving your hobby though. I could go on and on with the tingling sensation stuff, but I'll stop here while I'm only knee deep in this hole I've begun to dig.

[50AE]

Hi Arthur,

 

It sounds reasonable to me. I'll try Swede's rule-of-thumb first, but your method should work as well. The trick is knowing just where to start. You certainly don't want to over-do it! Under-doing it just means things aren't as efficient as they could be. Over-doing it means watch out for free chlorine coming out !!!

 

WSM

 

 

I've over done it many times. My cell is outside, so I don't really care about chlorine. What is bad, is that acid gets trapped in the chlorate crystals. When time comes to take them out, they crush and the trapped chloric acid mixes with the electrolyte outside and reacts. It's nasty, because it happens while you're handling the raw material.

Edited August 25, 2011 by 50AE

[Bonny]

So many things would be clear and understood if a person would read the four (4) areas that are about everything we have talked about for the past few pages. I beleive that number one pages to read would be all of Swede's Blog. And secound one would be about the Chlorate Cell in Random Chats as well as all of this forum and maybe Let's take this outside in the Random Chats. But for any of this to be fully understood you would need to read from start to finish, then as you read take notes. Pat

 

 

that would be a great thing for everyone starting out to do. It would stop the massive amount of posts that are asking the same thing over and over, when the answers are there. I reread all the time to refresh my memory and notes.

 

My cathodes in the cell are just about touching the bottom, but the anode is slightly higher than them.

this cell was the biggest i could find which i felt was suitable or my needs but my PVC cell will be bigger than this one though for sure.

 

Also frank, the reason the current is so low in my cell is just because it wont take much more than 20A. my power supply however is is capable of producing up to 40A max continuously.

 

because i have a limited supply of titanium plates, and the fact that what i have is so short, i wont be able to use the hydrogen gas developing on the cathodes to stirr the cell in my PVC cell. so i will just need to use a pump of somesorts to stirr up the water instead, since my PVC cell, will be about 10cm wider than this one, and almost twice as deep, a water pump is really the only way to go.

 

however, if i cant get a suitable pump, i can always try getting thick titanium or some other corrosion resistant wire, and use it as a third cathode, but will be protected from the liquor with a tube right from the top , down to the bottom, where i will coil it, so that it will be generating hydrogen directly from the bottom of the cell, and stirring up the water that way.

 

anther alternative altogether is to connect the warm PVC cell to a cool un heated tank, where naturally all the chlorate will want to precipitate out instead of the cell, since precipitation conditions are more favourable . i think swede did such a thing in his blog, and then had to scrap the idea because the hosing connecting the two tanks filled with chlorate and got blocked, it was either in swedes blog or an entry in oxidizing.110mb.com i think.

 

 

 

To help mix the water, buy a cheap aquarium bubbler. The hose/tube will plug up with salt, then just clean it out and turn it back on. You will need PVC or PE for the hose.

I use this on my perc cell, and see no reason it would't work on a chlorate cell.

[WSM]

How are you going to measure Watt hours? Surly it's easier to measure Amps.

 

 

Also inexpensive ones are available (Kill-A-Watt) online for about $20.

 

Lucky surplus finds .

 

If you know Watt/hours, simply divide by the voltage used and get Amp/hours (part of Ohm's Law is: P/IE, i.e., power divided by current = voltage, or power divided by voltage = current; and of course power is measured in Watts, which is voltage times current).

 

WSM

Edited August 26, 2011 by WSM

[WSM]

To help mix the water, buy a cheap aquarium bubbler. The hose/tube will plug up with salt, then just clean it out and turn it back on. You will need PVC or PE for the hose.

I use this on my perc cell, and see no reason it would't work on a chlorate cell.

 

I use PTFE tube. 1) I have it (lucky eBay score), and 2) It can handle anything the cell can dish out.

 

It occurs to me that heated or warm air pumped in would eliminate the crystal jamming problem (but now you have an air heating problem; how to do it?!).

 

WSM

[frank]

Had not thought of measureing at the outlet socket (110v) and going from there

I have a kil-a-watt.

 

You will be measuring power used (wasted) by supply as well as the power used by the cell. As current changes the power used (wasted) by the supply will not be constant which will complicate matters. How much I don't know. If current does not vary too much the power wasted by supply should not vary too much and a constant can simply be subtracted from the total Watt Hours to allow for power supply (wasted by heat) watt hours.

Have you tried the power meter? Is it fairly accurate at giving figures for amper hours (after division by V)?

Frank

[WSM]

Had not thought of measureing at the outlet socket (110v) and going from there

I have a kil-a-watt.

You will be measuring power used (wasted) by supply as well as the power used by the cell. As current changes the power used (wasted) by the supply will not be constant which will complicate matters. How much I don't know. If current does not vary too much the power wasted by supply should not vary too much and a constant can simply be subtracted from the total Watt Hours to allow for power supply (wasted by heat) watt hours.

Have you tried the power meter? Is it fairly accurate at giving figures for amper hours (after division by V)?

Frank

 

I haven't used the Watt/Hour meter yet. It must be accurate, people pay their power bill based on what the meter reads. I've only measured the voltage and current before the cell, but by tracking it digitally with a computer (Swede was big time into this), you can get a very accurate measurement of the power consumption at the cell.

 

Regardless of the variable power consumed, the amount (Moles or numbers) of electrons passing into the cell is quantifiable and from that one may accurately measure the CE. That's what I get from the reference you mentioned. A great deal of the mystery is removed by dealing with direct current rather than alternating current (no phase angles to deal with).

 

If you know the power factor of the power supply you can deduct the power consumed by the supply from the total used by the whole system. For that matter, why not deduct the VA (read by the volt and ammeters at the cell) from the Watt/Hour meter reads? The difference is the power wasted (used?) converting AC to low voltage DC. Once you know the difference the math is simple and you'll have an accurate measurement of the efficiency.

 

If you know the power consumed by the whole system (from the outlet) you can calculate what you chlorate really costs you per unit of weight! The Watt hours at the cell are VA/hour and easy to figure out with the voltmeter, ammeter and keeping track of the hours run.

 

If I'm rambling, it's because I'm tired . Time for bed.

 

WSM

Edited August 26, 2011 by WSM

[oldmanbeefjerky]

after i saw how cheap a 0-99v voltmeter was, i have decided to go and buy one from china, i have heaps of money (figuratively) now that almost half all my eBay items got sold in under 36 hours

WSM's setup with both the ammeter and voltmeter looked pretty cool, plus, the only thing really differing my atx from a half decent bench-top power supply is the fact i cant choose 7.5v or 9v . The fancier the better!

[WSM]

after i saw how cheap a 0-99v voltmeter was, i have decided to go and buy one from china, i have heaps of money (figuratively) now that almost half all my eBay items got sold in under 36 hours

WSM's setup with both the ammeter and voltmeter looked pretty cool, plus, the only thing really differing my atx from a half decent bench-top power supply is the fact i cant choose 7.5v or 9v . The fancier the better!

 

Yes and no, sometimes it's better to keep things simple. It is nice to have options, but how much do you have to pay for those options (in either time or money)?! The variable voltage and current power supply can't be beat when setting up a system, but it's expensive and hard to find in most cases. Once you've established the optimal parameters for your system, the least expensive power source can likely be one with fixed (or slightly adjustable) output, like a common computer PS.

 

If you want a "one source does it all" power supply, go for one with as many variables as possible. True, one with CC and/or CV would be spectacular for controlling what's going on in the cell as well as metering it. I looked and looked for the longest time and my best two power supplies came from the same place, an industrial surplus house in a major city. The next best two are 5Vdc but high current output and built to last. The others are small but will handle a respectable little system.

 

I like having an easy to read digital voltmeter and ammeter so I can tell at a a glance how my system is doing. A similar temperture gage would be a nice addition . You can get as fancy as you want but sometimes it's best to keep it simple .

 

WSM

 

Oh Yeah, if your system never goes above 12Vdc, why not look into a 0-20Vdc meter (it will usually read down to the nearest hundredth of a volt!). It's always a good idea to match the metering to the application .

Edited August 26, 2011 by WSM

[oldmanbeefjerky]

at under $3, its not really a bother at all. i do want it, but dont particularly need it that badly right now, so i dont mind waiting 2 weeks for it to come in.

also, i thought, i might end up using this for something else, so why not, plus, its actually cheaper to get a 0-100vdc voltmeter than it is for one 0-20v, and i couldnt find many decently priced ones which went over 9v AND could real back over 1 decimal point plus most had a minimum voltage of 4.5 or 3.2v, so......meh

[frank]

I haven't used the Watt/Hour meter yet. It must be accurate, people pay their power bill based on what the meter reads. I've only measured the voltage and current before the cell, but by tracking it digitally with a computer (Swede was big time into this), you can get a very accurate measurement of the power consumption at the cell.

 

You can get a very accurate measurement of the {power consumption of the cell + the power consumed by the power supply + wiring + connections} when using a kill-a-watt at the socket. If the power consumed by the power supply is not CONSTANT as the current into the cell varies this will lead to inaccuracys. How much the power consumed by power supply will vary I don't know. (will have a look). Swede measured and logged at cell terminals which eliminates this problem (it may not be much of a problem).

 

Regardless of the variable power consumed, the amount (Moles or numbers) of electrons passing into the cell is quantifiable and from that one may accurately measure the CE. That's what I get from the reference you mentioned. A great deal of the mystery is removed by dealing with direct current rather than alternating current (no phase angles to deal with).

 

The ref. I give never mentions power or voltage anywhere, only Amper hours (coulumbs) going into the cell. Finding out exactly (or reasonably exactly) how many coulombs have gone into the cell over a period of time as the current varys is the problem. When I say 'current varying' I mean the way the current varies as the temperature of the cell varies (time of day etc) and as the run goes onwards the resistance of cell increases and current drops and drops. This only happens when using a constant voltage supply , eg. A computer power supply.

 

If you know the power factor of the power supply you can deduct the power consumed by the supply from the total used by the whole system. For that matter, why not deduct the VA (read by the volt and ammeters at the cell) from the Watt/Hour meter reads? The difference is the power wasted converting AC to low voltage DC. Once you know the difference the math is simple and you'll have an accurate measurement of the efficiency.

 

Your back to measuring the (varying per time of day etc) current going into the cell. If this can be done (accurately) there will be no need for power meter in the first place.

 

 

I just put a kill-a-watt (KAW) meter on a computer power supply and it consumes 28.8 watts. That's with no current being taken from any outputs.

I will connect various loads to this supply and obtain various output currents (the output voltage will be a steady 5V, as it's a constant voltage supply) to simulate a cell drawing different currents.

If the power displayed by the KAW meter matches the [power being dissipated in the loads minus 28.8 watts] then this concept of obtaining Amper hours (coulumbs into cell) will work.

If the power shown by the KAW meter does not display the [power in the loads minus 28.8 watts] then its not working too well.

What this means is that (alas) the 28.8 watts is not a simply constant and is varying as the current demanded by the cell varies.

Perhaps the 28.8 watts will vary only a little bit and the 28.8 can simply be used as a constant in the final equation.

 

Thats my take on it.

 

 

Frank

Edited August 26, 2011 by frank

[WSM]

at under $3, its not really a bother at all. i do want it, but dont particularly need it that badly right now, so i dont mind waiting 2 weeks for it to come in.

also, i thought, i might end up using this for something else, so why not, plus, its actually cheaper to get a 0-100vdc voltmeter than it is for one 0-20v, and i couldnt find many decently priced ones which went over 9v AND could real back over 1 decimal point plus most had a minimum voltage of 4.5 or 3.2v, so......meh

 

It take two weeks to get to Oz from China?! That's strange, it takes the same to get all the way to the States (by air anyway). Maybe they send yours on a ship?

 

WSM

[WSM]

You can get a very accurate measurement of the {power consumption of the cell + the power consumed by the power supply + wiring + connections} when using a kill-a-watt at the socket. If the power consumed by the power supply is not CONSTANT as the current into the cell varies this will lead to inaccuracys. How much the power consumed by power supply will vary I don't know. (will have a look). Swede measured and logged at cell terminals which eliminates this problem (it may not be much of a problem).

The ref. I give never mentions power or voltage anywhere, only Amper hours (coulumbs) going into the cell. Finding out exactly (or reasonably exactly) how many coulombs have gone into the cell over a period of time as the current varys is the problem. When I say 'current varying' I mean the way the current varies as the temperature of the cell varies (time of day etc) and as the run goes onwards the resistance of cell increases and current drops and drops. This only happens when using a constant voltage supply , eg. A computer power supply.

Your back to measuring the (varying per time of day etc) current going into the cell. If this can be done (accurately) there will be no need for power meter in the first place.

I just put a kill-a-watt (KAW) meter on a computer power supply and it consumes 28.8 watts. That's with no current being taken from any outputs.

I will connect various loads to this supply and obtain various output currents (the output voltage will be a steady 5V, as it's a constant voltage supply) to simulate a cell drawing different currents.

If the power displayed by the KAW meter matches the [power being dissipated in the loads minus 28.8 watts] then this concept of obtaining Amper hours (coulumbs into cell) will work.

If the power shown by the KAW meter does not display the [power in the loads minus 28.8 watts] then its not working too well.

What this means is that (alas) the 28.8 watts is not a simply constant and is varying as the current demanded by the cell varies.

Perhaps the 28.8 watts will vary only a little bit and the 28.8 can simply be used as a constant in the final equation.

Thats my take on it.

Frank

 

Those are interesting questions. They may explain (partially) why Swede was obsessed with tracking the power comsumption during the run, besides the obvious "when is the run over", question (or maybe it's all wrapped up together ). Let us know what you learn .

 

WSM