making potassium (per) chlorate

[WSM]

I think you missed the point. Set your cell up with the 5V 30A and you'll be making chlorate faster than most amateurs would ever use it. Unless you plan on selling it or something, I don't really see any need to produce more. Once the first run is done, you have a second batch going before you likely use the first, and then just keep going.

I don't plan on getting a larger power supply, but was simply stating that I would add another at 5V and not 3V.

 

Remember, for each two Kilos of KCl you get about three Kilos of chlorate at ~90%CE. Even if you make things all the time, that is a lot of oxidizer ! If you do run multiple power supplies in parallel, try to match them perfectly or one will "hog the load" and be overworked. Have fun.

 

WSM

[WSM]

Why are you so set on running at 3V??? Unless you have a poor quality anode, set it up on 5V and start pounding the current in! Just reading this thread shows proven good results running 5V.

If I was going to do anything in parallel, I'd be doubling the atx's at 5V to pump 40-60A.

 

I feel that 5Vdc is the best setting to run chlorate cells at, for us amateurs. Give it a try or compare the two and see what you think? Let us know how it works out .

 

WSM

[oldmanbeefjerky]

that is true.

 

hopefully tomorrow, ill have my anode sheets and the day after i will have plasma cut one up to make a suitable pickle jar anode. tomorrow i also expect to receive my titanium plates for connecting the electrical leads to.

i hope the day after tomorrow isn't the day i find out i cant spot weld titanium together.....

 

 

by the way, i found a very large peice of tin ore. im going to see if i can extract the tin from it. (it weighs over 2kg and is very metallic in color, i found it at a tin mine)

i think ill use the tin (since i dont want to use up expensive solder) to protect my iPod anodes aluminium contact leads where they are connected to the anode. tin will oxidize and become inert much the same way titanium does right? it will be exposed to the corrosive fumes and splashes of the cell.

[WSM]

that is true.

hopefully tomorrow, ill have my anode sheets and the day after i will have plasma cut one up to make a suitable pickle jar anode. tomorrow i also expect to receive my titanium plates for connecting the electrical leads to.

i hope the day after tomorrow isn't the day i find out i cant spot weld titanium together.....

by the way, i found a very large peice of tin ore. im going to see if i can extract the tin from it. (it weighs over 2kg and is very metallic in color, i found it at a tin mine)

i think ill use the tin (since i dont want to use up expensive solder) to protect my iPod anodes aluminium contact leads where they are connected to the anode. tin will oxidize and become inert much the same way titanium does right? it will be exposed to the corrosive fumes and splashes of the cell.

 

I expect the tin will react. Titanium doesn't because of it's unique nature, which is why I prefer titanium over other metals in my cell. Tin works excellently as a conductive fill in tubular titanium leads, though...

 

WSM

Edited August 1, 2011 by WSM

[oldmanbeefjerky]

will the tin oxide erode away though, or become inert and indestructible the way titanium does?

i dont need the tin in a conductive form, but rather just to protect the corrodable metal that the anode link is made of, and from that Ive heard tin oxide is very corrosion resistant , but i don't know what its adherence strength is, and if it will just crumble away.

i only need it to hold up for a few days anyway, since im testing stainless steel as the anode.

 

by the way....MY ANODE SHEETS ARRIVED!

tomorrow i will cut them up with a plasma cutter, but i need to know, since ill be selling off the first sheet which i cut up (i have two 25cmx17cm)

would i perhaps be better off cutting them so that the anodes are fatter rather than longer which would be more convenient? because i just realized the anodes would be somewhat thin.

i can cut them so they are either 63mmx 170mm, or 85mm x 125mm without the titanium connector attached.

 

either is good for me, but im not so sure about other peoples cells and preferences

 

 

<-edit->

 

i just found a great deal on ebay for a 50A digital ammeter with built in shunt which i want for my cell, but, it doesnt say what its min and max readable voltages are, only that it needs a 6-15v independant power supply (in their words) to operate. the shunt is rated at 50A 75mv, would that still accurately read amperage for 3-5v cell?

allot of the ammeters im seeing everywhere just say that their input voltage is 0-30vdc or so, all with 75mv shunts if not at all , but all the ones rated for 0-30v also are always 20A or lower.

the voltage shouldnt matter if it needs a seperate power supply right?

Edited August 2, 2011 by oldmanbeefjerky

[WSM]

will the tin oxide erode away though, or become inert and indestructible the way titanium does?

i dont need the tin in a conductive form, but rather just to protect the corrodable metal that the anode link is made of, and from that Ive heard tin oxide is very corrosion resistant , but i don't know what its adherence strength is, and if it will just crumble away.

i only need it to hold up for a few days anyway, since im testing stainless steel as the anode.

by the way....MY ANODE SHEETS ARRIVED!

tomorrow i will cut them up with a plasma cutter, but i need to know, since ill be selling off the first sheet which i cut up (i have two 25cmx17cm)

would i perhaps be better off cutting them so that the anodes are fatter rather than longer which would be more convenient? because i just realized the anodes would be somewhat thin.

i can cut them so they are either 63mmx 170mm, or 85mm x 125mm without the titanium connector attached.

either is good for me, but im not so sure about other peoples cells and preferences

<-edit->

i just found a great deal on ebay for a 50A digital ammeter with built in shunt which i want for my cell, but, it doesnt say what its min and max readable voltages are, only that it needs a 6-15v independant power supply (in their words) to operate. the shunt is rated at 50A 75mv, would that still accurately read amperage for 3-5v cell?

allot of the ammeters im seeing everywhere just say that their input voltage is 0-30vdc or so, all with 75mv shunts if not at all , but all the ones rated for 0-30v also are always 20A or lower.

the voltage shouldnt matter if it needs a seperate power supply right?

 

Hi OMBJ,

 

I don't know about the tin oxide in a cell. What works in one environment may completely fail in another. Try it and see...

I have titanium and it works, so I'll stick with it.

 

I knew laserred would come through (he always has, so far). As to what size to cut them, that's up to you. Most folks use an electrode that is taller than wider; if that helps.

 

I have several of the Chinese digital ammeters and they work fine (I'm happy so far). They work well and if you have the option, get one that runs on 12Vdc. Since you aren't using the 12V part of your power supply, that may work OR get a separate 12Vdc wall wort (they're common).

 

The ammeter is reading current and doesn't care about the voltage (either high or low) as long as it has the required voltage to run it's own circuits.

 

The 50 Amp ammeter should read low amperage levels just fine. My digital ammeters are all either 100A or 200A and they work for low Amp reads. You should be fine.

 

CONGRATULATIONS! You're on your way !

 

WSM

[oldmanbeefjerky]

Hooray!

ill buy the ammeter, and hopefully tomorrow i will have the titanium plates which i can spot weld to the MMO mesh (my mums birthday parcel in which the plates have been enclosed, hasn't arrived yet)

also, i just realized, that whichever size i use, two pieces will use half the sheet, meaning that the other half can be cut differently.

 

it looks like ill make 2x 62mm and 2x 85mm anodes and ill use whichever fits best into my cell and sell of the rest.

i hope the spot weld works, and i don't have to go and work titanium tube to make an attachment onto my anodes....... or use bolts

[oldmanbeefjerky]

i just got the titanium plates, and my 3kg of potassium chloride and 1kg of sulfur, as well . so soon ill be makin heaps of chlorate!

but i now have to finnish my current metalwork project before i can use the plasma cutter

though its not really that much of a project........

 

i only have one problem now and thats the fact that the titanium plates i have are only 10cm long!

[WSM]

i only have one problem now and thats the fact that the titanium plates i have are only 10cm long!

 

How thick are the plates? Can you spot weld or TIG weld them together?

 

WSM

[oldmanbeefjerky]

i dont have access to a tig welder, also the plates are 1mm thick

what i was saying is that they are rather short

 

btw

 

does anyone know what plastic pharmacy grade plastic pill and vitamin bottles are made of? and if its suitable for a chlorate cell. my friend threw away his glass jars and so now im out of a suitable cell. and i have some "natures own omega 3 capsules" bottles, which are perfect for making a cell from, but i havent a clue as to what they are made of.

if the plastic was not appropriate for the cell, would the anode be fried, or would the plastic just erode away?

Edited August 3, 2011 by oldmanbeefjerky

[pyrojig]

How thick are the plates? Can you spot weld or TIG weld them together?

 

WSM

 

This is where, at the moment I am ... I have found that all the folks that I knew in body shops and auto repair dont have these spot welders.. It seems that they all have mig or tig welders. I guess the only danger with these are the use of a copper containing weld(wire) , making it dangerous for a chlorate cell. I am not sure if there is a way to buy a small amount of wire to weld with that will work good for these... Any ideas are welcome....

 

 

 

 

This kind of sucks... It seems that Swede was getting perfect welds out of these spot welders. Im not sure where to find one at the moment, or what kind of business still uses these units. ( Im open for suggestions)

Edited August 3, 2011 by pyrojig

[dagabu]

Buy a spot welder then.

 

LINK

 

-dag

[Bonny]

i dont have access to a tig welder, also the plates are 1mm thick

what i was saying is that they are rather short

 

btw

 

does anyone know what plastic pharmacy grade plastic pill and vitamin bottles are made of? and if its suitable for a chlorate cell. my friend threw away his glass jars and so now im out of a suitable cell. and i have some "natures own omega 3 capsules" bottles, which are perfect for making a cell from, but i havent a clue as to what they are made of.

if the plastic was not appropriate for the cell, would the anode be fried, or would the plastic just erode away?

 

 

They are (most likely) HDPE, which will be fine for a cell. Take a look at the bottom. The recycling triangle should have a number inside. Look for #2.

[Arthur]

Swede's first spot welder was a DIY one made from a MOT with about 5 turns of secondary winding made from VERY thick wire.

I guess youtube will have instructions on how to make a MOT into a spot welder.

[Mumbles]

If it's opaque, it's probably HDPE and fine for a cell. If it's clear, most of the ones I've seen are polypropylene or PETE.

[oldmanbeefjerky]

it has a 2 in a recycling triangle. i am exploding with joy. hooray !

also, i said i dont have access to a tig, not a spot welder. i do have access to a spot welder. also i dont think the fact that the electrodes are made of copper will affect the cell at all, since probably less than 10mg of copper is deposited onto the weld, certainly not enough to be visible

 

though, i think i shall go ahead and build a spot welder from MOT's , since it would be handy to have one laying about for these sorts of things.

 

ooooh soon ill be makin chlorate...

[WSM]

PVC is probably the best readily available material to build a cell from. It is impervious to the cell contents.

 

One millimeter CP titanium is able to be spot welded. My Harbor Freight spot welder has already welded CP titanium 1.5 times that thick and can probably do better than that!

 

WSM

Edited August 3, 2011 by WSM

[WSM]

This is where, at the moment I am ... I have found that all the folks that I knew in body shops and auto repair dont have these spot welders.. It seems that they all have mig or tig welders. I guess the only danger with these are the use of a copper containing weld(wire) , making it dangerous for a chlorate cell. I am not sure if there is a way to buy a small amount of wire to weld with that will work good for these... Any ideas are welcome....

This kind of sucks... It seems that Swede was getting perfect welds out of these spot welders. Im not sure where to find one at the moment, or what kind of business still uses these units. ( Im open for suggestions)

 

If you have access to a TIG welder and want to weld CP titanium, it's best to use CP titanium wire to feed the weld. Lacking that, you may cut thin strips of CP titanium sheet metal to feed the weld. Butt welding isn't unheard of either for TIG welding . Where there's a will, there's a way. MIG welding titanium is trickier as it takes special gas (straight Argon, if I remember correctly), expensive CP titanium wire, and then time and money to develop the skills to do it. I think TIG or spot welding is the better option.

 

As for copper and avoiding possibly making that dangerous copper chlorate, if copper gets into your chlorate cell; after you spot or TIG weld your electrodes, give them a good soak in hydrochloric acid for a while (15-60 minutes should work) and then rinse well with running water. Titanium or MMO coated titanium should handle such treatment without any problem, and any copper should be converted to a soluble form and washed away.

 

Dagabu is right. Harbor Freight sells a decent spot welder (on sale now for ~$160) and they work well for making electrodes from the MMO or CP titanium sheet metal. The spot welder comes in either 120Vac or 240Vac models (mine is a 120Vac type) for the same price.

 

WSM

Edited August 3, 2011 by WSM

[pyrojig]

Thanks for the great information !!! I appreciate it ... !!

I would buy this spotwelder if I did this kind of stuff more often. But for that price it is cheaper to find a shop and have it welded. Or make your own MOT spot welder like Swede did.. Im not sure where He sourced his timer, but it seems like a cheap setup.

What is your opinion on this attachment for a arc welder that converts to a spot welder .. Is it too excessive in size or power, or am I on to something here?

 

http://www.harborfreight.com/interests/welding-and-welders/spot-weld-gun-98759.html

If you have access to a TIG welder and want to weld CP titanium, it's best to use CP titanium wire to feed the weld. Lacking that, you may cut thin strips of CP titanium sheet metal to feed the weld. Butt welding isn't unheard of either for TIG welding . Where there's a will, there's a way. MIG welding titanium is trickier as it takes special gas (straight Argon, if I remember correctly), expensive CP titanium wire, and then time and money to develop the skills to do it. I think TIG or spot welding is the better option.

 

As for copper and avoiding possibly making that dangerous copper chlorate, if copper gets into your chlorate cell; after you spot or TIG weld your electrodes, give them a good soak in hydrochloric acid for a while (15-60 minutes should work) and then rinse well with running water. Titanium or MMO coated titanium should handle such treatment without any problem, and any copper should be converted to a soluble form and washed away.

 

Dagabu is right. Harbor Freight sells a decent spot welder (on sale now for ~$160) and they work well for making electrodes from the MMO or CP titanium sheet metal. The spot welder comes in either 120Vac or 240Vac models (mine is a 120Vac type) for the same price.

 

WSM

[oldmanbeefjerky]

I am really starting to get annoyed here. every day for the past 4 days i have set out to go to metalwork, cut the MMO anode with a plasma cutter, and for the past 2 days, planned to spotweld titanium sheets onto the cut anodes.

every single time something came up that prevented me from doing so. now, today, when i went, the plasma cutter had been packed away!

 

GRRRRR!

 

also , pyrojig, i dont think it will be much good. the electrode is only rated at 35-55 amps, and could only be used with an arc welder.

i think the purpose of that spot welder is for it to be a more portable spot welder, since arc welders are generally rather light and can be moved places easily, but most good spot welders are often bolted to the floor and require constant access to flowing water (im not saying they all do).

 

this could be considerd the telescopic 6ft plastic rod to your regular carbon fiber 7ft heavy duty ocean fishing rod that is the normal MIG welder.

but if i were you i would definitely do some digging into this. for that price, even one that was only half as good as a proper spot welder might be worth buying for what its worth, but its uses are limited.

Edited August 4, 2011 by oldmanbeefjerky

[Tesla]

If I figured out a way to rig up the anode and cathode withstainless steel nuts and bolts would that work, or would they erode and contaminate thecell?

 

[pyrojig]

If I figured out a way to rig up the anode and cathode withstainless steel nuts and bolts would that work, or would they erode and contaminate thecell?

 

 

 

I would imagine this would work... but I would assume that the maintenance of continuously tightening it would make it a pain in the ass. I think your contaminates will be present but low. May be worth a shot.... Who's game to give it a try?

 

 

also , pyrojig, i dont think it will be much good. the electrode is only rated at 35-55 amps, and could only be used with an arc welder.

i think the purpose of that spot welder is for it to be a more portable spot welder, since arc welders are generally rather light and can be moved places easily, but most good spot welders are often bolted to the floor and require constant access to flowing water (im not saying they all do).

 

 

I am not too sure about it needing more amps to weld... Although I could be absolutely wrong.. It seems strange that welding Ti is such a bitch w/o expensive equipment. The spot welder idea is one that any "Joe" can operate and get a good weld for cheap. I dont mind welding myself ( I actually really enjoy metal fab. ) . I hope this cheap set up will work ....And yes I do have a arc welder at my dispose( and a tig, and a mig) just no spot welder .

Edited August 4, 2011 by pyrojig

[WSM]

If I figured out a way to rig up the anode and cathode withstainless steel nuts and bolts would that work, or would they erode and contaminate thecell?

 

I use stainless steel outside of the cell and for electrical connections. I avoid it inside the cell to prevent contaminating the liquor with nickel and chromium. If I had to have hardware inside the cell, I'd look for CP titanium hardware. It's not easy to find or inexpensive, but it would work. If I had to use stainless in the cell, I'd probably only put it on the cathode and not the anode (depending on cathodic protection to help prevent contamination).

 

WSM

[oldmanbeefjerky]

remember though, cheap = bad quality. like i said your using something that is used maybe as a backup, or emergency spot welder, or one thats used in very tricky situations. its not as good as an actual spot welder.

[WSM]

Thanks for the great information !!! I appreciate it ... !!

I would buy this spotwelder if I did this kind of stuff more often. But for that price it is cheaper to find a shop and have it welded. Or make your own MOT spot welder like Swede did.. Im not sure where He sourced his timer, but it seems like a cheap setup.

What is your opinion on this attachment for a arc welder that converts to a spot welder .. Is it too excessive in size or power, or am I on to something here?

http://www.harborfre...-gun-98759.html

 

Swede did make his first spot welder and used it a lot. He later bought one from Harbor Freight (plus extra electrode tips) and used it exclusively after that (I believe).

 

WSM

Edited August 4, 2011 by WSM