Mumbles Posted July 8, 2011 Posted July 8, 2011 If you can get 75g of ruthenium chloride for $300, buy up as much as you can. The going price is $465.
WSM Posted July 8, 2011 Posted July 8, 2011 (edited) If you can get 75g of ruthenium chloride for $300, buy up as much as you can. The going price is $465. In fact, I'll go you one better; I'll buy 25 grams of it for $100 plus shipping costs, just so you don't have to spend so much . Whataya say?! (Hmmm, custom MMO electrodes. This could get interesting!) WSM Edited July 9, 2011 by WSM
oldmanbeefjerky Posted July 9, 2011 Posted July 9, 2011 sorry, i must have misread, yesterday, turns out it was a combination of ruthenium and carbon, which doesnt say exactly how much ruthenium it has. though i have found another seller, but i dont know if i have to buy 1 kilogram right herehttp://www.alibaba.com/product-gs/216385680/Ruthenium_chloride_RuCl3_CAS_NO_14898.html it can supply a minimum of 1 gram at a rate of $100-10000 per kg, which i dont quite believe, but ill ask how much itle cost me to buy 5 grams, as a sample, as i dont think ill need more than 200mg to make a decent anode!though i think now i oughta do some research on exactly how the anode is plated, just in case. if its nitate baked or electroplated, because i cant think of how i would . now that i see the difficulties in making an anode form rare earth metals, like ruthenium, and that you just said, ill be able to make heaps of chlorate with just one, i tink just one, if the lead dioxide ones dont work well, should be a good enough investment, and i can use lead dioxide to convert some chlorate to perchlorate to sell on my site!though i still will see if i can make a ruthenium MMO anode anyway!
WSM Posted July 9, 2011 Posted July 9, 2011 In fact, I'll go you one better; I'll buy 25 grams for $100 plus shipping costs, just so you don't have to spend so much . Whataya say?! (Hmmm, custom MMO electrodes. This could get interesting!) WSM Nuts! I guess it WAS too good to be true . Oh well... WSM 1
oldmanbeefjerky Posted July 9, 2011 Posted July 9, 2011 (edited) the question still sands, how long does lead dioxide stand up against chlorate? i just ran a lead dioxide converted rod (not plated, i made by electrolyzing a lead rod in sulfuric acid) , in copper sulfate solution all night , in which time in the morning, the solution was clear, and all the copper plated on the cathode, and no damage on the anode, so im thinking, if this rod which is only being protected by a tiny film of lead dioxide, can stand up to what i have estimated is 25% sulfuric acid, for several hours, it should be able to resist corrosion by chlorate too!but for how long? when i start electrolysis, i want to finnish it, not pause half way! so i need to know how long it lasts, or if it seemingly remains the same after each batch which would be great to know! Edited July 9, 2011 by oldmanbeefjerky
Mumbles Posted July 9, 2011 Posted July 9, 2011 Good Lead dioxide lasts quite a while. I guess you'll find out how you've done plating it. Some of the diagrams and instructions I have for LD electrodes plate at least 1mm on the surface, and they certainly are quite durable if well maintained.
oldmanbeefjerky Posted July 9, 2011 Posted July 9, 2011 well in that case it looks like ill have to find out then, ill go and vidn out how well i have plated it, maintenance isnt really that complex for my LD anode, since all i have to do is electrolyze it as a cathode in sulfuric acid for an hour or so.i think ill electrolyse 100 grams of salt in 1L of water for a week and ill see how it goes. i often have this problem of hydroxide forming due to a massive loss in chlorine gas, how do you all combat this? or do you seal up your cells? or is it because i only ever use very small anodes like carbon rods?where on the forums might i find some images of chlorate cells to base my next cell off, i soon plan on smelting a large, thin lead dioxide anode which i will drill made holes in, like a maximzed version of cheap metal flyscreen (with holes not woven), as it seems electrodes like that work better! and then will electrolyze in concentrated sulfuric acid. i am finding it rather fun casting lead, especially now that ive found use for the hundreds of spent fireworks tubes i have in my firework bag! they are all roughly 8mm x 55mm, which are the dimensions of my cast lead electrodes.
WSM Posted July 9, 2011 Posted July 9, 2011 well in that case it looks like ill have to find out then, ill go and vidn out how well i have plated it, maintenance isnt really that complex for my LD anode, since all i have to do is electrolyze it as a cathode in sulfuric acid for an hour or so.i think ill electrolyse 100 grams of salt in 1L of water for a week and ill see how it goes. i often have this problem of hydroxide forming due to a massive loss in chlorine gas, how do you all combat this? or do you seal up your cells? or is it because i only ever use very small anodes like carbon rods?where on the forums might i find some images of chlorate cells to base my next cell off, i soon plan on smelting a large, thin lead dioxide anode which i will drill made holes in, like a maximzed version of cheap metal flyscreen (with holes not woven), as it seems electrodes like that work better! and then will electrolyze in concentrated sulfuric acid. i am finding it rather fun casting lead, especially now that ive found use for the hundreds of spent fireworks tubes i have in my firework bag! they are all roughly 8mm x 55mm, which are the dimensions of my cast lead electrodes. If you have lead plates, do you need copper? The sulfuric acid solution will turn the lead to alpha form (porous) lead dioxide under the influence of direct current (the same as in charging a lead-acid battery cell). In my opinion, the copper probably won't survive in a chlorate cell but combine to form dangerous sensitizers (copper chlorate) that will render your chlorate prone to spontaneous combustion when mixed with fuels. Personally, I would avoid any sort of copper in the chlorate cell, for safety's sake. WSM
oldmanbeefjerky Posted July 9, 2011 Posted July 9, 2011 i wipe the excess lead dioxide off my electrode and re-electrolyze which makes the layer grow thicker. i dont see though why i would need copper though, nor how it is relevant either. my lead dioxide is thoughroughly cleaned and there is no copper sulfate left over. though i get the point, ill make sure no copper gets into the cell.
WSM Posted July 9, 2011 Posted July 9, 2011 (edited) i wipe the excess lead dioxide off my electrode and re-electrolyze which makes the layer grow thicker. i dont see though why i would need copper though, nor how it is relevant either. my lead dioxide is thoughroughly cleaned and there is no copper sulfate left over. though i get the point, ill make sure no copper gets into the cell. I see, you're using the copper sulfate to make sulfuric acid and then make the lead dioxide. My misunderstanding; somehow I got confused in the discussion and thought you were plating with copper and then with lead dioxide. I'm glad we cleared that up (whew!). Now the question that comes to mind is, Is the lead dioxide the porous (alpha) form usually associated with charging a lead-acid cell or are we getting the hard, crystalline (beta) form at any point in the process? The beta form is desireable for our purposes, but not required to be the only form used. Beta form over the alpha form has been used successfully by industry for years and could well work for us if we have a solid method developed. Let us know more when you get a chance? Thanks. I feel these discussions are leaving out so many details, it's sometimes hard to follow. Thanks for taking the time to explain. WSM Edited July 9, 2011 by WSM
oldmanbeefjerky Posted July 10, 2011 Posted July 10, 2011 you probably misunderstood an earlyer post where i said my LD electrode became plated in copper because my sulfuric acid became contaminated because some of the copper wires holding the lead anode, got spritzed with sulfuric acid and then formed some crystals which then fell into solution, which then , as the LD is the cathode, got coverd in copper, but i wiped it off. anyway, i find that lead which gets converted initially is in beta form and does not wipe off, but all the rest, which i suspect is being ripped from the anode, because there is no residue in the sulfuric acid after, and there is a whole 2mm layer missing from the anode ( the lead anode in the cell, not the lead dioxide cathode).
Mumbles Posted July 10, 2011 Posted July 10, 2011 What kind of conditions are you using to coat the electrodes? BTW, I wouldn't use adhesion strength as an indicator of crystal form. The alpha actually adheres better.
Bonny Posted July 10, 2011 Posted July 10, 2011 you probably misunderstood an earlyer post where i said my LD electrode became plated in copper because my sulfuric acid became contaminated because some of the copper wires holding the lead anode, got spritzed with sulfuric acid and then formed some crystals which then fell into solution, which then , as the LD is the cathode, got coverd in copper, but i wiped it off. anyway, i find that lead which gets converted initially is in beta form and does not wipe off, but all the rest, which i suspect is being ripped from the anode, because there is no residue in the sulfuric acid after, and there is a whole 2mm layer missing from the anode ( the lead anode in the cell, not the lead dioxide cathode). What kind of conditions are you using to coat the electrodes? BTW, I wouldn't use adhesion strength as an indicator of crystal form. The alpha actually adheres better. Maybe it's time to move this into it's own topic. Although related to chlorate/perchlorate production, I think there is enough discussion going on to add another thread.
Kenny Posted July 10, 2011 Posted July 10, 2011 has anyone tried using aluminum as anodes?, Ive tried it and it did start bubbling and steaming quickly there was no smell of chlorine Try stainless steel. I seen that all over youtube.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9FyGP-zSpZo&feature=channel_video_title
Kenny Posted July 10, 2011 Posted July 10, 2011 Try stainless steel. I seen that all over youtube.http://www.youtube.c...nel_video_title Sorry I forgot that you said anodes not cathodes
WSM Posted July 10, 2011 Posted July 10, 2011 Try stainless steel. I seen that all over youtube.http://www.youtube.c...nel_video_titleSorry I forgot that you said anodes not cathodes Hi Kenny and Welcome, Stainless steel does work for a cathode but even mild steel or iron can work. Usually a bit of dichromate is added to passivate the iron or stainless. Many have switched to using CP (commercially pure) titanium for cathodes. Titanium adds nothing to the corrosive soup that is our (per)chlorate cells. Have you made and run a cell yet or are you investigating the process? WSM
WSM Posted July 10, 2011 Posted July 10, 2011 you probably misunderstood an earlyer post where i said my LD electrode became plated in copper because my sulfuric acid became contaminated because some of the copper wires holding the lead anode, got spritzed with sulfuric acid and then formed some crystals which then fell into solution, which then , as the LD is the cathode, got coverd in copper, but i wiped it off. anyway, i find that lead which gets converted initially is in beta form and does not wipe off, but all the rest, which i suspect is being ripped from the anode, because there is no residue in the sulfuric acid after, and there is a whole 2mm layer missing from the anode ( the lead anode in the cell, not the lead dioxide cathode). Hi OMBJ, Yes, I did misunderstand. Thanks for clearing it up. Have you considered documenting your work as a blog? If photos are added and descriptions given, it would be an interesting read. WSM
WSM Posted July 12, 2011 Posted July 12, 2011 Hi OMBJ,I think the most efficient way to get MMO is to buy it unless it's totally unavailable or you need a custom shape. I think making MMO when you can buy or harvest it (as from pool chlorinators), is comparable to a whisky distiller looking for copper ore to make copper tubing for a still rather than focusing on making the product (whiskey). I looked up lasered's shipping rate to Oz and the 10" x 6.75" MMO mesh would cost you about $25US delivered. Even if you hacksaw the piece in two and bolt electrical leads to the MMO mesh, leaving a fair bit out of the solution; it would make a LOT of chlorate (tens of kilos, at least and probably more). I imagine you could use one of the halves to plate with LD and convert some of the surplus chlorate to perchlorate.Unless you love the process of making electrodes (in which case I'll keep my peace and cheer you on) I'll keep offering suggestions on how to obtain them without the challenge of making them.WSM Hi All, I just found out laserred has relisted his MMO mesh on eBay. Check out items numbered: 260816269958330587497473260816763997 He ships all over the World, it seems. This appears to be the lowest priced anode material available anywhere. Unless you love trying to make anodes, this may be the way to go. Just buy one of these and spend your energies on creating a working cell . This posting is an anouncement of availability. I'm not connected with this individual, other than as a satisfied customer . WSM
50AE Posted July 12, 2011 Posted July 12, 2011 I didn't mention that my MMO has died from the BaCl2 electrolysis, it maybe lasted a week and a half. Because I still have MMO left, I'm planning to coat one with PbO2 and try the BaCl2 electrolysis with it.
Arthur Posted July 12, 2011 Posted July 12, 2011 IIRC there is something odd about the BaCl process and it may be better to make NaPerc then extract BaPerc and reuse the NaClI did read that someone had to use a spinning electrode set to reduce competing but unwanted reactions.
oldmanbeefjerky Posted July 13, 2011 Posted July 13, 2011 (edited) Hi All, I just found out laserred has relisted his MMO mesh on eBay. Check out items numbered: 260816269958330587497473260816763997 He ships all over the World, it seems. This appears to be the lowest priced anode material available anywhere. Unless you love trying to make anodes, this may be the way to go. Just buy one of these and spend your energies on creating a working cell . This posting is an anouncement of availability. I'm not connected with this individual, other than as a satisfied customer . WSM well im gonna need all the info i can get on the large sheet i just bought, for instance how many decent useable strips can i cut it into, and will the cutting proccess exposing titanium cause the titanium to corrode away during electrolysis? or will it oxidize and become inert? also which the cut strips at the size you recomend, how much (sodium) chlorate would i be able to make with it and what would be the best voltage from my atx to use with the mmo electrode strip (5v 30A max ,12v 12A max ,3v 9Amax to maximise anode lifetime? one last thing, i think that as of 2 pages ago, this topic should be moved to a new topic, perhaps called (per)chlorate electrodes or something. would that be possible? oh, one last thing, i am documenting it, but i havent posted anything yet. i havent had access to my medication for some time now (methadrones) and i can really concentrate much on anything, especially writting up a ducmentation section of my site, though ill give it a shot, since im pretty much all done with the manufacturing part , now i just gotta move onto the electrolysis plating which i will do once i have about 100g of lead acetate and 60g of copper acetate or so, and i will record the whole electrolysis in low quality on my camera and make it into a video going at high speed.just for you guys! Edited July 13, 2011 by oldmanbeefjerky
Bonny Posted July 13, 2011 Posted July 13, 2011 well im gonna need all the info i can get on the large sheet i just bought, for instance how many decent useable strips can i cut it into, and will the cutting proccess exposing titanium cause the titanium to corrode away during electrolysis? or will it oxidize and become inert? also which the cut strips at the size you recomend, how much (sodium) chlorate would i be able to make with it and what would be the best voltage from my atx to use with the mmo electrode strip (5v 30A max ,12v 12A max ,3v 9Amax to maximise anode lifetime? one last thing, i think that as of 2 pages ago, this topic should be moved to a new topic, perhaps called (per)chlorate electrodes or something. would that be possible? oh, one last thing, i am documenting it, but i havent posted anything yet. i havent had access to my medication for some time now (methadrones) and i can really concentrate much on anything, especially writting up a ducmentation section of my site, though ill give it a shot, since im pretty much all done with the manufacturing part , now i just gotta move onto the electrolysis plating which i will do once i have about 100g of lead acetate and 60g of copper acetate or so, and i will record the whole electrolysis in low quality on my camera and make it into a video going at high speed.just for you guys! The large sheet of what? MMO I assume?Size dpends on how much power you want to pump through it, which also depends somewhat on the cell size. I don't remember the exact size of my MMO anode, maybe 3" x 6". I made about 50lbs of chlorate and it still looks brand new. I'm not sure how it was cut, but I think any exposed Ti does not effect anything. As for power, run the atx at 5V, so you get more current into the (chlorate?)cell.
oldmanbeefjerky Posted July 13, 2011 Posted July 13, 2011 The large sheet of what? MMO I assume?Size dpends on how much power you want to pump through it, which also depends somewhat on the cell size. I don't remember the exact size of my MMO anode, maybe 3" x 6". I made about 50lbs of chlorate and it still looks brand new. I'm not sure how it was cut, but I think any exposed Ti does not effect anything. As for power, run the atx at 5V, so you get more current into the (chlorate?)cell. i bought the big 6" x 10" sheet and also, lassered told me that these are iridium plated electrodes, but he/she doesnt know the rest of the MMO composition. but from what you say, i should be safe cutting it up into 4 peices ( , ide even be happy with considering that 1 inch is like 3cm, but apparently i need a large one), and i think i might sell off two halves once i get perhaps some stainless steel or something attached to the strips so that they look good and proper, or will i need titanium for that? i hope not because i cant weld on titanium menaing ill need to bolt it on with anyway, ill sell off the other two, and once i see how much others are willing to pay for it (maybe $7-10 ea) ill use the money to buy more sheet, cut it up and sell it, continuously!in case you lost my train of thought, ill be selling all four pieces from the next sheet to make a potential $40, and which case afterwards is all profit.but it all depends on demand, as ill say theyl need to contact me and work something out. just a thought, what would you recomend be the maximum amperage per square inch that is safe to use to make chlorate with the anode i have bought? i still think though that the last few pages should be moved to a new topic. there clearly is allot to be said about both making (per)chlorate and making and trading electrodes
WSM Posted July 13, 2011 Posted July 13, 2011 well im gonna need all the info i can get on the large sheet i just bought, for instance how many decent useable strips can i cut it into, and will the cutting proccess exposing titanium cause the titanium to corrode away during electrolysis? or will it oxidize and become inert?also which the cut strips at the size you recomend, how much (sodium) chlorate would i be able to make with it and what would be the best voltage from my atx to use with the mmo electrode strip (5v 30A max ,12v 12A max ,3v 9Amax to maximise anode lifetime?one last thing, i think that as of 2 pages ago, this topic should be moved to a new topic, perhaps called (per)chlorate electrodes or something. would that be possible?oh, one last thing, i am documenting it, but i havent posted anything yet. i havent had access to my medication for some time now (methadrones) and i can really concentrate much on anything, especially writting up a ducmentation section of my site, though ill give it a shot, since im pretty much all done with the manufacturing part , now i just gotta move onto the electrolysis plating which i will do once i have about 100g of lead acetate and 60g of copper acetate or so, and i will record the whole electrolysis in low quality on my camera and make it into a video going at high speed.just for you guys! Hi OMBJ, The cut edges aren't affected; pure titanium is nice that way (and also makes an excellent cathode!). Bonny is right, I'd go with the 5Vdc/30A connection. In fact you may consider connecting all the 5 volt leads to a single large copper bus and run that to the electrode with a 10 gauge lead (or larger). Bolting the leads solidly is much superior to any kind of clip arrangement. If you got one of laserred's 10" x 6.75" electrodes, it can handle up to 260 Amps, maximum (with a cathode on both sides of the anode). It's all real estate; the area exposed. Each square inch can handle just under 2 Amps (1.935 Amps if one cathode is used; 3.87 Amps if the cathodes are on both sides of the anode). These are recommended maximums with an ideal set up. If you use less current, the anodes will last much longer and you will still make A LOT of chlorate. To answer your question, you could cut the MMO piece into 4 and easily make 30 Amp cells using single cathodes with each piece. Ideally you should use a CP titanium lead on the anode (and if you bolt it on, Ideally it should be with a CP titanium bolt). I use a spot welder and weld the leads onto the electrodes. I also use a stainless steel bolt and nut to securely attach the electrical leads, though brass hardware would work also. The main thing is to isolate the electrical connections from the cell liquids, which like to eat the electrical connections ! There are a lot of little details to attend to, to create the ideal setup. Get started and refine your system as you go. You'll learn a lot and create a lot of oxidizer salts in the process. You are not alone; we can (and will) offer the benefit of our collective experience here. WSM
WSM Posted July 13, 2011 Posted July 13, 2011 ide even be happy with considering that 1 inch is like 3cm, but apparently i need a large onei still think though that the last few pages should be moved to a new topic. there clearly is allot to be said about both making (per)chlorate and making and trading electrodes Actually each square inch is 6.45 square centimeters. The surface area of the MMO mesh is roughly twice the area of one side's area (i.e., the area is nearly equal to solid MMO and the mesh is a more efficient use of the expensive titanium!), considering the three dimensional view. For example, a 2" x 3" piece of MMO mesh surrounded on two sides with equal sized cathodes uses 23.22 Amps, maximum. (2" x 3") x 2 x 6.45 x 0.3A = 23.22 Amps considering we are using 0.3 Amps per cm2. WSM
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