Mumbles Posted July 14, 2009 Posted July 14, 2009 I would definitely recrystalize or at the very least do some good washing. Chloride makes the chlorate somewhat more sensitive actually. With regard to the potassium oxide thing. It's weird, but that is how they measure potassium content. You must be familiar with NPK ratings on fertilizer, correct? Nitrogen (as N2O), Phosphorus (as P2O5), and Potassium (as K2O). They measure as they oxide for whatever reason. 60 is good for KCl.
Swede Posted July 14, 2009 Posted July 14, 2009 I would definitely recrystalize or at the very least do some good washing. Chloride makes the chlorate somewhat more sensitive actually. With regard to the potassium oxide thing. It's weird, but that is how they measure potassium content. You must be familiar with NPK ratings on fertilizer, correct? Nitrogen (as N2O), Phosphorus (as P2O5), and Potassium (as K2O). They measure as they oxide for whatever reason. 60 is good for KCl. ?? But where's the oxygen? I'm not doubting you, it's just weird. Potassium is 52% by weight of pure KCl salt. Where does the 60% come from? If you broadcast the stuff over a garden, the best that'll happen is dissociation in moisture to potassium and chloride ions.
deadman Posted July 14, 2009 Posted July 14, 2009 You can get rather pure KCl from Home Depot, Lowes, or (insert hardware store here). Sold usually as water softener salt. I usually see it in 40 pound bags. Check the bag because it's sometimes sodium chloride. The sodium is usually 3-4 bucks a bag and the potassium bag is usually 8-11 bucks a bag. I just went to Home Depot to check it out again. They are still there, but it seams prices have more than doubled from what I remember. It's been 3 years since I tried out my chlorate cell (and it'll be another 3 before I touch it again). Sodium seams to be about 9 dollars know and the potassium was 27.
Swede Posted July 15, 2009 Posted July 15, 2009 and the potassium was 27.Man that's just nuts. Our home depot has the 40 pound bags for $14. Are you in California or something? What a bunch of hooey. Potassium Chloride in that crude form probably costs 15 cents per pound or less to make.
deadman Posted July 16, 2009 Posted July 16, 2009 Yup good old californey! Bakersfield to be exact. I'm sure there are specialty places that sell it cheaper and I didn't check Lowe's, but yeah it's ridiculously high.
Mumbles Posted July 16, 2009 Posted July 16, 2009 It's a percentage Swede. I had a hell of a time understanding it until I finally got the hang of it. 0-0-60, means that the stuff contains 60% K2O. That is 60g per 100g, which is .637mol, or 1.274mol of potassium. Since we are looking for KCl, not K2O, we would also have 1.274mol of KCl. 1.274mol of KCl is about 95g. They don't exactly go into full scale analysis to come up with these numbers, so they're rarely perfect. That is how I understand it at least. If anyone can explain it better, please correct me.
Swede Posted July 16, 2009 Posted July 16, 2009 It's a percentage Swede. I had a hell of a time understanding it until I finally got the hang of it. 0-0-60, means that the stuff contains 60% K2O. Weird. I looked up K2O and the first hit (Wikipedia) explains it a bit. As you said, there's not K2O in the bag, it's still potassium chloride, with perhaps other potassium salts. The chemical formula K2O is used in the N-P-K (nitrogen-phosphorus-potassium) numbers on the labels of fertilizers. Although K2O is the correct formula for potassium oxide, potassium oxide is not used as a fertilizer in these products. Normally, potassium chloride, potassium sulfate, or potassium carbonate is used as a fertilizer source for potassium. The percentage of K2O given on the label only represents the amount of potassium in the fertilizer if it was in the form of potassium oxide. Potassium oxide is about 83% potassium by weight, but potassium chloride, for instance, is only 52% potassium by weight. Potassium chloride provides less potassium than an equal amount of potassium oxide. Thus, if a fertilizer is 30% potassium chloride by weight, its standard potassium rating, based on potassium oxide, would be only 19%. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Potassium_oxide If the contaminants are potassium sulfate and carbonate, both are soluble and would be difficult to remove. Probably the best way would be to email or phone the maker of the fertilizer and simply ask what is in the bag. If it's 98% KCl, it's probably good enough.
FrankRizzo Posted July 17, 2009 Posted July 17, 2009 Tyron, I would be very surprised if that was the case. That price is lower than what the sodium salt usually runs.
50AE Posted August 10, 2009 Posted August 10, 2009 Can someone tell me if I can control the pH with citric or ascorbic acid instead of HCl ?
g&t Posted August 11, 2009 Posted August 11, 2009 KCl fertilizer in Australia is currently $57 per 25kg bag. That equals $2.28/kg or $1.90USD/kg KNO3 has also nearly doubled in price since I last bought it 5 or 6 years ago.
Mumbles Posted August 11, 2009 Posted August 11, 2009 I haven't seen KCl prices in a while, but KNO3 has at least risen 2 to 3x over the past few years. The last time I bought it, I paid $19 per 55lb bag, now I'd jump at less than $60.
Swede Posted August 11, 2009 Posted August 11, 2009 Can someone tell me if I can control the pH with citric or ascorbic acid instead of HCl ? 50AE, in my opinion, it'd be better to skip pH control entirely... just let it run... than try an acid like citric or ascorbic. Beyond the unknown chemistry you are introducing, the amount of acid powder you'd have to introduce to keep the pH at 6.8 would be huge and probably cost-prohibitive. When using HCl, it takes approximately 0.42 ml 12% HCl per hour per amp to keep pH at 6.8. When you add the numbers up, it's a lot of acid. My 25 liter cell consumes the equivalent of 500 ml of concentrated HCl in a single run, half a liter. The same amount of citric or ascorbic would be pretty high. When you ignore pH, you can't get above about 66% efficient. But it'll still make chlorate, it'll just take longer. With good pH control, a home setup can crack 90%, but more typical is maybe 80%. Just curious, is HCl not available where you are?
50AE Posted August 11, 2009 Posted August 11, 2009 Damn government idiots have put a license requirement to buy the following chemicals : acetone, diethyl ether, sulfuric and hydrochloric acid. There is a small shop selling chemicals near the chemistry university here, but I didn't have time to go there, I had work to do.My primary concern about non controlling pH is the shorter life of your MMO anodes. Does alkaline pH affect their life ?
Ralph Posted August 12, 2009 Posted August 12, 2009 you cant buy acetone wow nail polish remover is a more expensive sorce of it also what country would ban such things are you sure they are that hard to get i come from the land of restrictions (most people know it as the land down under) and they are all alienable
deadfinger Posted August 12, 2009 Posted August 12, 2009 Well, there is always a way to beat the government bullshits. Acetone is cheap in the hardware stores and if you want more pure product just distil and enjoy. Diethyl ether is easy to distil from various starting fluid brands and the procedure for this is quite simple. The sulfuric acid can be concentrated from the 37 % electrolyte, but if you know the right people it’s better to buy the 94 % technical stuff for around 3 euro/ 5l (Yep, the prices here are awesome). About the HCl, there is OTC source, but it’s easy to do with sulfuric acid and ordinary table salt. By the way, sorry for my rusty English !
50AE Posted August 12, 2009 Posted August 12, 2009 Because our government is stupid. But for example, 60% H2O2 and 66% HNO3 is allowed to be bought from individuals. The same is for very toxic compounds. The bases that are 99% don't need this kind of license and they are far more dangerous,
deadfinger Posted August 12, 2009 Posted August 12, 2009 "But for example, 60% H2O2 and 66% HNO3 is allowed to be bought from individuals." Yep, I love this country!
50AE Posted August 12, 2009 Posted August 12, 2009 A was lazy to go to the other chemical shop which is 4 kilometers more away, but I bought a kg of KCl from the closest one. Also 100 grams of lead nitrate for chloride tests.I already had some KCl from a friend who promised me 2 parts KCl for 1 part KClO3 deal. Here is a pic of my new setup, it's not very sophisticated, but I'll improve it with time. It produces KClO3 and I got one teaspoon for now. http://img256.imageshack.us/img256/5615/img0258k.th.jpg BTW, there's a misconception in the pic, let's see if you can find it . I could post an advice in the next reply
Swede Posted August 13, 2009 Posted August 13, 2009 Misconception? I don't see anything! How does a pool person control pH where you are at? At any pool store here, you can buy CASES of HCl cheap. It's used by the gallon in even a small pool.
Mumbles Posted August 13, 2009 Posted August 13, 2009 Eastern Europe has electricity? heh, I'm just kidding. I saw nothing out of the ordinary.
Ventsi Posted August 13, 2009 Posted August 13, 2009 Swede , there are damn near no pools in Bulgaria. There are only the public ones here and threre in the bigger cities. 50AE you CAN get if you looked long enough , or just make it yourself.
TheSidewinder Posted August 13, 2009 Posted August 13, 2009 Oh, I see it! There's a water bottle in the picture. Real pyros don't drink water. Everyone knows that real pyros drink Isopropyl Alcohol, snort Sulfur and Dextrin, eat Charcoal and Potassium Nitrate, then shit pure Black Powder.
50AE Posted August 13, 2009 Posted August 13, 2009 (edited) My advice is to look closely at one of the chemical storage boxes You will have to zoom the picture at maximum to see it. Edited August 13, 2009 by 50AE
50AE Posted August 17, 2009 Posted August 17, 2009 Sorry for the double posting, but I have to know how to remove the hypochlorite from the KClO3 wield. Boiling for 20 minutes really doesn't help much.
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