WSM Posted July 5, 2016 Posted July 5, 2016 Lloyd, I have customers who use granular chlorine in solution for their well systems and the pumps usually last years. Except for an occasional new tube, as you said, they've been true workhorses. It very much depends on the quality of tubing and the pump, plus the compatibility of the tubing with the material being pumped. WSM
lloyd Posted July 5, 2016 Posted July 5, 2016 (edited) Oooookay! And...? I mean, 1) why would someone put a poor-quality pump in service pumping corrosive chemicals, and 2) why would someone not spend the time to select the correct tubing quality and material for the chemical? What did I miss there? The one I used had both an adjustment for pinch pressure, and came with three sets of different diameter rollers to accommodate different wall thicknesses of tubing. I don't remember the brand, but I imagine I could find my records on it (somewhere! <G>). LLoyd Edited July 5, 2016 by lloyd
lloyd Posted July 5, 2016 Posted July 5, 2016 Hmmmm... I just looked at my inventory, and that pump is on the shelf or in a box here (somewhere!). I'll try to locate it in the next day or so. Lloyd
OldMarine Posted July 5, 2016 Posted July 5, 2016 (edited) How would you determine the dosing schedule with a saturated solution of chloride? Would you have to check specific gravity over a period of time or is there another way to measure concentrations?Lloyd, I posted a link to the one I usually install in a previous post. Is it similar to yours? Edited July 5, 2016 by OldMarine
OldMarine Posted July 5, 2016 Posted July 5, 2016 Didn't mean to hijack the thread WSM. Unfortunately a plumber is drawn to talks of pipe and tubing like a moth to a flame!
WSM Posted July 5, 2016 Posted July 5, 2016 Hmmmm... I just looked at my inventory, and that pump is on the shelf or in a box here (somewhere!). I'll try to locate it in the next day or so.Lloyd I've got a few peristaltic pumps but the very best is a high-end, digitally controlled, Masterflex Pump unit with a few different heads, including one for pumping with Teflon tubing. My original plan for pH control was going to use that pump, but I downsized to a gravity fed system with an Auber precision timer and Teflon flow valve and needle valve for more precise control of the doses. I need to dust those parts off and get ready to add that setup to my sodium chlorate experiment (the next phase is with pH control). WSM
WSM Posted July 5, 2016 Posted July 5, 2016 Didn't mean to hijack the thread WSM. Unfortunately a plumber is drawn to talks of pipe and tubing like a moth to a flame! No worries. I do the same thing with electrical discussions, being an electrical guy. WSM
lloyd Posted July 5, 2016 Posted July 5, 2016 "Lloyd, I posted a link to the one I usually install in a previous post. Is it similar to yours?"------------That's not the same form-factor as mine, and mine was grey plastic and sort-of "low-profile". I'll find it or the paperwork. Unfortunately, I don't ever throw anything away! WSM... yeah... I'm a retired Electronics Guy... and it only takes a 'spark' to get me going on THAT! <G> LLoyd
WSM Posted July 5, 2016 Posted July 5, 2016 How would you determine the dosing schedule with a saturated solution of chloride? Would you have to check specific gravity over a period of time or is there another way to measure concentrations?Lloyd, I posted a link to the one I usually install in a previous post. Is it similar to yours? I'm sorry, I'm confused. Are we talking aboutsolid salt additions to my sodium chlorate cell, or are we discussing pH control in chlorate cells generally?Please let me know. Thanks. WSM
WSM Posted July 5, 2016 Posted July 5, 2016 WSM... yeah... I'm a retired Electronics Guy... and it only takes a 'spark' to get me going on THAT! <G>LLoyd That's useful. When I get (off my duff and) around to trying to make an amp-hour controller, can I pick your brain as I'm trying to make it work?!! WSM
OldMarine Posted July 5, 2016 Posted July 5, 2016 Sorry, I was still jabbering about replenishing your salt levels though I suppose the dosing system would be very similar for ph as well.
WSM Posted July 5, 2016 Posted July 5, 2016 (edited) Sorry, I was still jabbering about replenishing your salt levels though I suppose the dosing system would be very similar for ph as well. Ah, yes. The system will work within a fairly wide range once the chlorate levels are above about 430 g per liter in the electrolyte and added salt will be slowly reacted at a calculated rate depending on the current consumption; and the chlorate will begin to drop out depending on the level of chlorate concentration and the temperature of the electrolyte. I've got some graphs that make my convoluted description quite clear. It was taken from sciencemadness, dann2's description of how to harvest sodium chlorate from your system. A friend of mine (a retired chemical engineer and fellow electrochemist) shared it with me and walked me through it so I can grasp what's happening and how to use the graph as a powerful tool to understand and predict what's happening and how to drive the reactions the way I want it to go. Once I have a solid grasp on these concepts, I plan to share it here. The pH control is well understood, and by comparison, much simpler. The goal is to drive the pH to the ideal of 6.8, or as close to it as possible, where the "sweet spot" ideal ratio of hypochlorite to hypochlorous ions encourage the "bulk reaction" of chlorate generation throughout the cell simultaneously (rather than by "brute force" at the anode only), using the minimum amount of current flow. WSM Edited July 5, 2016 by WSM
schroedinger Posted July 5, 2016 Posted July 5, 2016 Oooookay! And...? I mean, 1) why would someone put a poor-quality pump in service pumping corrosive chemicals, and 2) why would someone not spend the time to select the correct tubing quality and material for the chemical? LLoydBoth question have the same answer, buyers answer: It's cheap and works (and a thats a dumb answer) Seller: It's cheap and i can sell multiple ones to the people who won't buy a quality pumo, cause of the price and still earn the same of them.
MrB Posted July 5, 2016 Posted July 5, 2016 I'm actually not sure what causes them to create a mess, but the ones i've seen may very well have been anything from quality control issues, human error, or simply mismatched products. The tube splits lengthwise, and if the pump is placed poorly, it turns in to a gravity feed, and the liquid ends up where ever the pump was located. They are GREAT for a lot of uses, and you can get them for as little as 2 bucks a pop on eBay. (just the motor and pumphead, you would mount, and run it of a timer, or similar)And that may well be one of the issues. at 2 bucks, it's probably not the most through quality control inspections...B!
lloyd Posted July 5, 2016 Posted July 5, 2016 (edited) Cough! $2? Oh...You guys are talking about the incontinence simulator pump from the "Barbie is over 55" collection! Mine was more like a couple-or-few-hundred dollars! That slight difference just might make a difference in longevity. I'll take a peek on the shelves today, to see if I can pin down the brand it was. LLoyd Edited July 5, 2016 by lloyd
lloyd Posted July 5, 2016 Posted July 5, 2016 (edited) Wellllll, crap! I should have remembered THAT brand name (I guess we add 'senility' to the old-age phenomena!). It was an Anko Mity-Flex pump. (Don't recall the ml/min, without looking up the model number... they're available in a wide range) They list for $171 USD, for the most-basic configuration. Options are extra. Lloyd Edited July 5, 2016 by lloyd
WSM Posted July 5, 2016 Posted July 5, 2016 I put the second sample of NaClO3 crystals in a larger clear jar with some paper towels held over the opening with a rubber band. The crystals aren't fully dry yet, but when they are drier I plan to weigh them to determine their mass. The amber prescription bottle holds the remainder of the first sample (about 45 g). The larger sample fills the (approximately 4" x 4") square jar about an inch high (roughly 100 mm x 100 mm x 25 mm volume of loose crystals). I have the (I'm guessing at least 3 liters) jar full of electrolyte again in the fridge (between 0oC and 5oC). We'll see what we get in two or three days. WSM 1
Arthur Posted July 5, 2016 Posted July 5, 2016 If you weigh the crystals you remove, then you can work out by molecular weights the amount of chloride you must put back into the solution, then you can work out the number of amp hours that you need to put into the cell to electrolyse that much chloride.
WSM Posted July 5, 2016 Posted July 5, 2016 (edited) If you weigh the crystals you remove, then you can work out by molecular weights the amount of chloride you must put back into the solution, then you can work out the number of amp hours that you need to put into the cell to electrolyse that much chloride. That would work when the system is balanced. Now, if I have surplus solid chloride in the cell, it'll still work but I'll have more free time between harvesting cycles. Also, I can get a higher yield in my chlorate solution (with that extra solid chloride in there). WSM Edited July 5, 2016 by WSM
MrB Posted July 6, 2016 Posted July 6, 2016 Cough! $2? Oh...You guys are talking about the incontinence simulator pump from the "Barbie is over 55" collection! Not quite, but close, indeed. If you keep an eye on it, i suspect that the "DIY" solution is just as efficient, and even if you opt for throwing the whole unit away once every year, it takes a while to catch up to a quality pump, and it's pricetag. Different things, for different needs.B!
lloyd Posted July 6, 2016 Posted July 6, 2016 (edited) But Mr. B., it wasn't the 'life' of the pump they were condemning, but the fact that it dumps everything on the floor! That's not worth the diff'! I see a variety of used lab-grade pumps available on ebay for around $60, and new tubing in a variety of plastics is cheap and readily available. Lloyd Edited July 6, 2016 by lloyd
OldMarine Posted July 6, 2016 Posted July 6, 2016 I had to stop by our local pump/well equipment supplier today and inquired about the types of tubing and dosing systems they carried and was astounded. They have a whole section of the lower floor dedicated to lab dispensing and dosing equipment and the other half is labware such as glass and stainless lab frames and brackets. I love this place even more now!
WSM Posted July 6, 2016 Posted July 6, 2016 I had to stop by our local pump/well equipment supplier today and inquired about the types of tubing and dosing systems they carried and was astounded. They have a whole section of the lower floor dedicated to lab dispensing and dosing equipment and the other half is labware such as glass and stainless lab frames and brackets. I love this place even more now! Hey OldMarine, That place sounds awesome. I imagine I could hurt myself in a place like that (financially, anyway ). If you ever snap a photo of that lower floor, I'd love to see it. Thanks. WSM
memo Posted July 6, 2016 Posted July 6, 2016 I was thinking the same as wsm, I would really like getting into a place like that. I would soon be broke. memo
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