making potassium (per) chlorate

[WSM]

The salt reservoir hasn't worked out very well. It worked great the first day or so of running, but after that it plugged up with a solid mass of crystals and the back pressure caused leaks and dripping salt solution and bleach all over. That's definitely not a good thing.

 

I need a different method of adding dry chloride crystals to the cell to keep the chloride levels high enough to saturate the chlorate in the cell.

 

I'm open to suggestion.

 

WSM

[dagabu]

A chute with a timed vibrator like a phone buzzer motor? Or a fish feeder?

 

[dagabu]

Another fish feeder:

 

http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?pcatid=23821&cmpid=11cseYY&gclid=CjwKEAjwkui7BRCf64DNtfDupgoSJAA_0LOoTmy5_vi8A6j00lI95X9keKIlmVYJIbKO8IGNmDU0choCmtvw_wcB

[WSM]

A chute with a timed vibrator like a phone buzzer motor? Or a fish feeder?

 

Hi Dave,

 

That's a good idea, but I wonder how it'd hold up in a hot steamy area like on or near a chlorate cell? The salt might cake up like my salt replenisher and jam the system. How much does a fish feeder like the one in the video run, typically?

 

Thanks for the suggestion (I like the thinking of it).

 

WSM

Edited July 4, 2016 by WSM

[WSM]

Another fish feeder:

http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?pcatid=23821&cmpid=11cseYY&gclid=CjwKEAjwkui7BRCf64DNtfDupgoSJAA_0LOoTmy5_vi8A6j00lI95X9keKIlmVYJIbKO8IGNmDU0choCmtvw_wcB

 

Now I like the idea of this one, but a closing trap door on the opening of it might work better for a chlorate cell. The cell is truly hot and steamy, and any of that getting to the salt crystals (causing them to clump hard) could seriously clobber some systems.

 

Keep these great ideas and suggestions coming, though. I love it.

 

WSM

[dagabu]

The top one runs about $15.00 on Amazon Prime. Nothing holds up in those condition, that is why I was thinking about a chute where the crystals can't stick to the chute surface. You could dump the salt from feet away using a T-12 tube cover and a couple tip doors to keep the moisture out of the tube.

[OldMarine]

How much salt are you adding and how often?

[dagabu]

Is there any reason why you cant make a solution and pour it in?

[OldMarine]

I install dosing pumps on well water systems to inject chlorine and I can't see why that wouldn't work for a brine solution. You'd need to have your pump pickup above the bottom of your brine tank but it would/should work.

https://www.watertreatmentsupply.com/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=419&gclid=CjwKEAjwkui7BRCf64DNtfDupgoSJAA_0LOoMRnL6wkDCOflR8O0qvA9lK3AJw3Y6yzCM-tlgvqpQhoC3w7w_wcB

Edited July 4, 2016 by OldMarine

[WSM]

Is there any reason why you cant make a solution and pour it in?

 

The saturated solution dilutes the mother liquor because sodium chloride solubility only ranges from about 357 g per liter (0^oC) to about 390 g per liter (100^oC). Sodium chlorate solubility ranges from about 80 g per liter (0^oC) to about 204 g per liter (100^oC). This is why it seems best to add solid NaCl to the running cell.

 

With a sodium chlorate system, the product (sodium chlorate) is much more soluble than the chloride salt, so a chloride solution dilutes the chlorate solution in the cell. Feeding solid chloride will offset this issue by not adding extra water to the cell as chloride solution would. The chloride will slowly be consumed as it's converted to chlorate (at the same time concentrating the chlorate solution).

 

Switching from potassium chlorate systems to a sodium chlorate system is like learning a whole new language. The new way of doing things doesn't exactly fit with the way I've done them before. It's a brave new world.

 

WSM

Edited July 4, 2016 by WSM

[WSM]

How much salt are you adding and how often?

 

I don't know yet, but with time and experience I hope to figure it out.

 

WSM

[dagabu]

Then I think a screw type auger is your answer. Pushed THROUGH a silicone orifice, the crystals that form will be pushed off as the salt opens it up to deliver the salt.

 

How DO silicone and Delrin hold up in that environment?

[WSM]

The top one runs about $15.00 on Amazon Prime. Nothing holds up in those condition, that is why I was thinking about a chute where the crystals can't stick to the chute surface. You could dump the salt from feet away using a T-12 tube cover and a couple tip doors to keep the moisture out of the tube.

 

That's a nice thought. It would probably be tricky to implement, but I won't rule it out. I might be stuck with adding it in by hand to start, till I figure out how much salt the system needs as it's consumed.

 

WSM

Edited July 5, 2016 by WSM

[WSM]

Then I think a screw type auger is your answer. Pushed THROUGH a silicone orifice, the crystals that form will be pushed off as the salt opens it up to deliver the salt.

How DO silicone and Delrin hold up in that environment?

 

Silicone will work for a while, but I don't know about delrin (I don't think so). I can use Viton elastomer (rubber), and either Kynar or Teflon, though; which are all compatible with the system.

 

I like your idea of pushing through a pliable orifice. I can see fabricating something like this and it working (hopefully, very well). Thanks!

 

WSM

Edited July 4, 2016 by WSM

[dagabu]

Once OM reminded me about caustic chemical delivery, I remembered seeing a demo at a conference using a 1/2" ID device delivering constant salt delivery to a tank. What was it for? Idunno?!

[WSM]

The top one runs about $15.00 on Amazon Prime. Nothing holds up in those condition, that is why I was thinking about a chute where the crystals can't stick to the chute surface. You could dump the salt from feet away using a T-12 tube cover and a couple tip doors to keep the moisture out of the tube.

 

Thanks. I checked on eBay and they range from $14.95 delivered to "you gotta be kidding!"; and of course, I go for the lowest price I can find . Thanks.

 

WSM

[WSM]

Once OM reminded me about caustic chemical delivery, I remembered seeing a demo at a conference using a 1/2" ID device delivering constant salt delivery to a tank. What was it for? Idunno?!

 

That's very cool. I bet the price for the system was pretty high (which is why most of us are DIY guys).

 

WSM

[WSM]

I install dosing pumps on well water systems to inject chlorine and I can't see why that wouldn't work for a brine solution. You'd need to have your pump pickup above the bottom of your brine tank but it would/should work.

https://www.watertreatmentsupply.com/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=419&gclid=CjwKEAjwkui7BRCf64DNtfDupgoSJAA_0LOoMRnL6wkDCOflR8O0qvA9lK3AJw3Y6yzCM-tlgvqpQhoC3w7w_wcB

 

I have a few dosing pumps, but hadn't considered using one in this application. I can see them working quite well in a continuous potassium chlorate system; in fact a friend of mine did just that with such a system from 2007 to 2010. He was able to produce over a pound of KClO₃ a day, non-stop, for the amount of chlorate he needed for his displays.

 

Thanks for the suggestion. Even if it doesn't work on what I'm doing now, it might be just the ticket for another project later on.

 

WSM

Edited July 5, 2016 by WSM

[MrB]

Consider a much cheaper pump of eBay, and just run it of a timer, if your going in that direction. Just don't put it anywhere where a leak will drain the system. Peristaltic pumps are an accident waiting to happen ;- )

B!

[WSM]

Consider a much cheaper pump of eBay, and just run it of a timer, if your going in that direction. Just don't put it anywhere where a leak will drain the system. Peristaltic pumps are an accident waiting to happen ;- )

B!

 

At Arthur's suggestion, I've located and purchased several inexpensive pumps from surplus houses. They are nice, and the prices were excellent (typically between 5-20% of retail). I even have some peristaltic pumps but your warning is well taken. I've seen a bit of that first hand. Thanks.

 

WSM

Edited July 5, 2016 by WSM

[WSM]

The finest (surplus) pumps I got were the Iwaki brand, and I'm particularly impressed with the magnetically coupled chemical handling pumps.

 

 

I've also acquired several Iwaki bellows pumps which will work nicely for slow addition of fluids. (Thanks, Arthur)

 

WSM

Edited July 5, 2016 by WSM

[OldMarine]

The pinch rotor type is better at handling things that tend to recrystallize between doses because of the crushing action during pumping.

I love building things so I'm living vicariously through you on this project!

[lloyd]

I'm not sure I get that. I built a 'glue fountain' with a good-quality industrial peristaltic pump to perform glue application on a particular close-proximity effect. Its purpose was to put a full-diameter thin ring of glue on the end of a comet, rather than coating the entire end, as would 'dipping'.

It pumped Elmer's white glue. It ran almost five years in nearly daily production (about four hours a day, weekdays) before we decided it was time to replace the tubing. It never leaked. We used the second tube about two more years before retiring the product from our line.

 

What did we miss? Could it be that the 'pinch clearance' was wrong on the ones that failed?

 

Lloyd

Edited July 4, 2016 by lloyd

[OldMarine]

Lloyd, I have customers who use granular chlorine in solution for their well systems and the pumps usually last years. Except for an occasional new tube, as you said, they've been true workhorses. Edited July 5, 2016 by OldMarine

[lloyd]

Yeah! Now that you reminded me of that -- when I was in my 20's, working my way through college, I was the maintenance man for a mobile home park.

 

We had a water system there that consumed about 8-10 gallons a week of chlorine concentrate (liquid) pumped by a peristaltic pump. I did that for four years, and we NEVER had to replace the tubing; nor did it ever leak.

 

Hmmm... curiouser and curiouser!

 

LLoyd