WSM Posted June 12, 2014 Posted June 12, 2014 I have easy access to oxidizers so I haven't thought about this to much and know nothing about production and have only read the last few pages. But I do like having the knowledge and experimenting with things.Has anyone figured out how much it costs them to make the various oxidizers? Or how much wattage is required? I don't mind using chlorate and certainly it is cheaper than perchlorate.Is it possible to make ammonium perchlorate?I saw a couple things I was going to comment on but will have to read back through to remind myself. I was going to ask if anyone had looked toward bicycle parts for titanium fasteners, but they are likely the wrong alloy. From a quick search it looks like to medical implants are CP (sp? Pure ti). If that is the case it might not hurt to ask any friends in the medical field if they know someone in the operating room or a equipment rep. My wife works in the OR and she had brought home some Ti screws and plates in the past that could not be used for some reason. Might be a potential source for the right Ti. I will have to ask her if she can still get some and maybe pass them on if they are useable.Looks like there is a lot to learn but that it might be a worthwhile endeavor. Especially if it can be produced for a reasonable cost and is somewhat pure. And hopefully I will remember the other things I was going to mention when I'm not as sleepy. If I remember correctly, chlorates cost about a dollar a pound to make and perchlorates closer to $1.70, but it mostly depends on how much is paid per kilowatt hour and the setup and other operating costs. AP? Yes, but it required more handling to get it right (and safe). My best suggestion is to carefully read through the blogs of the gentleman named Swede, titled "you'll put your eye out..." (or something close). Read them in chronological order and you'll see his progression of learning. That should be more of a "fast track" to getting a handle on what we're talking about and where we're coming from. Feel free to ask questions and participate. WSM
taiwanluthiers Posted June 12, 2014 Posted June 12, 2014 DO NOT use titanium commonly found on bikes... they will dissolve completely within minutes. Don't ask how I know... I think they will work on the cathode side because they are protected for being a cathode but on the anode side only CP titanium will survive. If you can make sodium perchlorate, you can make AP. However if you intend to use them for stars rather than rocket fuel, getting the sodium out may be problematic. There's another method that involves turning potassium perchlorate into perchloric acid, then turn it into AP.
dagabu Posted June 12, 2014 Posted June 12, 2014 Bike frames are made from 3Al/2.5V and 6Al/4V Ti, lots of aluminum (Al) and vanadium (V) to get eaten away by the acid...
Arthur Posted June 12, 2014 Posted June 12, 2014 Titanium alloys contain other things that add properties which engineers want but leave us with a contaminated bath. Apparently Berylium is a common alloying element and I certainly don't want berylium oxide in my house. Pure titanium sold as CP or 99.9% is less strong for engineering but better for corrosion resistance.
pex Posted June 12, 2014 Posted June 12, 2014 I live somewhere in the EU. Chlorate is alsow for bidden. But in the country. Next door. You can still get sodium chlorate. Al oxidizers are forbidden. Only potassium nitrate. Is easy to get because we have a lot of farmers. Pyro is realy a risk. Over here. You can get 1.5 year prisson for pyro If you break in some ones house. You get two ore three weeks. The govermend over here is crazy. The last three monds of the year. The Internet police is looking at all computer history from our country to search for people who are interessed. In professional fireworks. And than give you a visit. The Day before New years eve. The govermend. Says that one. 3" shell is the same power ass 3 fragg granates. If they have found some shells. In your home. the military Explosion people will come. To clean your house. And all neibours will get evacuated From there house for a few shells. Its realy frusstrating that i live here. And to see how everry body. Have so much funn with there hobby in other countrys Crazy f*ckers Pex
WSM Posted June 13, 2014 Posted June 13, 2014 Titanium alloys contain other things that add properties which engineers want but leave us with a contaminated bath. Apparently Berylium is a common alloying element and I certainly don't want berylium oxide in my house.Pure titanium sold as CP or 99.9% is less strong for engineering but better for corrosion resistance. By definition, CP means "Commercially Pure" and a typical analysis is 99.5% Ti (and the other 0.5% can be any number of things, but aluminum is typical). WSM
WSM Posted June 13, 2014 Posted June 13, 2014 (edited) DO NOT use titanium commonly found on bikes... they will dissolve completely within minutes. Don't ask how I know...I think they will work on the cathode side because they are protected for being a cathode but on the anode side only CP titanium will survive.If you can make sodium perchlorate, you can make AP. However if you intend to use them for stars rather than rocket fuel, getting the sodium out may be problematic. There's another method that involves turning potassium perchlorate into perchloric acid, then turn it into AP. Very true. If I have NaClO4, it's definately getting turned into KClO4. The solubilities work very well for it; but not as much for the ammonium salts. I like the notion of creating HClO4 and then make ammonium (or even lithium) perchlorate. WSM Edited June 13, 2014 by WSM
taiwanluthiers Posted June 13, 2014 Posted June 13, 2014 (edited) However the idea of creating perchloric acid seems scary. I think it involves adding KClO4 to hydrochloric acid and boiling them, and you end up with perchloric acid. If I am after KClO4 I would rather turn it straight from potassium chlorate, it is simpler because you have NO chance of sodium contamination. Also potassium chlorate is still soluble enough at high temperature that it will still work. Edited June 13, 2014 by taiwanluthiers
Mumbles Posted June 13, 2014 Posted June 13, 2014 If you're making perchloric acid, there really is no reason to turn it into the potassium salt first. I'd avoid making it at all cost anyway. AP isn't that valuable.
frank Posted June 13, 2014 Posted June 13, 2014 If your are looking for cheap implant Ti, tis the grave digger you need to get to know or the crematorium operator! Never mind the doctor.Grade 5 seems to work OK as substrates for anodes (Manganese Dioxide anyways) as shown over on sciencemadness but when you use grade five bolts to bolt grade 1, 2, 3 or 4 together they corrode very quickly for some reason or other.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Titanium_alloy There are grades containing Palladium which one would presume are the ultimate for corrosion resistance. I seen a piece of Grade 11 for sale on ebay and was sorry I did not purchase but there is no need for Pd, it's probably overkill for us.
WSM Posted June 13, 2014 Posted June 13, 2014 However the idea of creating perchloric acid seems scary. I think it involves adding KClO4 to hydrochloric acid and boiling them, and you end up with perchloric acid.If I am after KClO4 I would rather turn it straight from potassium chlorate, it is simpler because you have NO chance of sodium contamination. Also potassium chlorate is still soluble enough at high temperature that it will still work. Without a proper lab setup, making perchloric acid would be scary indeed. I think adding a thoroughly dried perchlorate salt to concentrated sulfuric acid in a clean, compatible distillation rig would do it. Watching the temperatures and keeping everything in limited amounts is probably good advice. As for turning potassium chlorate into perchlorate, Swede proved it's possible but I still wonder if it's the best approach. Industry uses sodium and converts the NaClO4 into KClO4 with extremely low (if any) sodium content. I think, with a proper setup, we can do it too. I also suspect the sodium may be easier on the LD anodes (I have yet to prove it, and I may be wrong. Call it a hunch). WSM
pyrojig Posted June 14, 2014 Posted June 14, 2014 I always wondered about making the perchloric acid too. It would be useful for more than just AP. Im sure that some rare salts of strontium or lithium may find favor to the perchloric acid process, v.s. a cell producing them ( like K & NA perch.) There is where study/research comes in most important . Perchloric acid can produce nasty burns as well as very explosive reactions if one is not aware of its incompatibilities . I've heard that even a bit of tissue dropped in the acid will cause a flash or even a explosion .\But .,as with any dangerous materials (and acids in particular) , proper PPE and research are in call for, before taking on that task .
WSM Posted June 16, 2014 Posted June 16, 2014 Bike frames are made from 3Al/2.5V and 6Al/4V Ti, lots of aluminum (Al) and vanadium (V) to get eaten away by the acid... Or by the alkali (which is more prevalent in chlorate cells). I don't know why I (or anyone else) didn't catch this before now? I suppose they'd make aluminates and vanadates. WSM
WSM Posted June 16, 2014 Posted June 16, 2014 (edited) I always wondered about making the perchloric acid too. It would be useful for more than just AP. Im sure that some rare salts of strontium or lithium may find favor to the perchloric acid process, v.s. a cell producing them ( like K & NA perch.) There is where study/research comes in most important . Perchloric acid can produce nasty burns as well as very explosive reactions if one is not aware of its incompatibilities . I've heard that even a bit of tissue dropped in the acid will cause a flash or even a explosion .\But .,as with any dangerous materials (and acids in particular) , proper PPE and research are in call for, before taking on that task . Lithium perchlorate has shown promise as an oxidizer for solid propellants, since early on. The main deterrant is probably cost (lithium salts are typically very expensive). I had the opportunity to experiment with lithium perchlorate many years ago and saw some interesting effects (hot, bright pink strobe when combined with lithium benzoate, etc.). Perchloric acid is nothing to trifle with. It can cause serious accidents including life threatening injuries. Don't even go there without a proper lab setup and PPE's. WSM Edited June 16, 2014 by WSM
dangerousamateur Posted June 17, 2014 Posted June 17, 2014 I have another question: it is often said that MMO anodes wont make perchlorate. I remember reading somewhere, I think on Alan Yates homepage, that it is possible. Only the Anodes wont last very long. Why do the anodes die?If low choride level is the reason, is it not possible to add chloride once in a while to prevent this? Or will this also prevent the formation of perchlorate?
taiwanluthiers Posted June 18, 2014 Posted June 18, 2014 If you add chloride, it will only make chlorate.
schroedinger Posted June 18, 2014 Posted June 18, 2014 Actually thats not right. There is an equilibrium between the production of chlorate and perc. Industrial cells are working on high chlorate concentrations to make perc (by adding continous chlorate). Also MMO means mixed metal oxides and there are different mmo's. The normal mmo (what most times gets called mmo) is ruthenium based and not very suited for making perc as they degrade very fast. Also they miss the oxigen overpotential which pbo2 or platinum got
taiwanluthiers Posted June 20, 2014 Posted June 20, 2014 By the way I notice at least in a non PH controlled chlorate cell, you get hydrogen. I do not know about PH controlled cells. I wonder what would it take to capture and bottle the hydrogen produced by this reaction? Surely industry must do this because that gas is still useful for a lot of things... like feeding into a fuel cell to supplement electrical needs...
Arthur Posted June 20, 2014 Posted June 20, 2014 The usual issue with hydrogen collection is the hostile nature of the rest of the off gasses and mist splatter. How much perc is made now I don't know, in the days of big rockets out of Kennedy/Canaveral lots would be made and there would be lots of off gasses. Now there will be less perc made as there are fewer big launches.
WSM Posted June 20, 2014 Posted June 20, 2014 By the way I notice at least in a non PH controlled chlorate cell, you get hydrogen. I do not know about PH controlled cells. I wonder what would it take to capture and bottle the hydrogen produced by this reaction? Surely industry must do this because that gas is still useful for a lot of things... like feeding into a fuel cell to supplement electrical needs... On an amateur scale, it would be like spending a dollar to gain a penny. The processes of making chlorate or perchlorate oxidizers basically breaks the water into hydrogen and oxygen, casts off the hydrogen and shoves the oxygen onto the chlorine or chlorate molecules. Industry may well harvest the hydrogen, clean and use (or sell) it for a bit of asset recovery. I like the notion of a fuel cell, but suspect the bottom line wouldn't support it. WSM
WSM Posted June 20, 2014 Posted June 20, 2014 (edited) The usual issue with hydrogen collection is the hostile nature of the rest of the off gasses and mist splatter. How much perc is made now I don't know, in the days of big rockets out of Kennedy/Canaveral lots would be made and there would be lots of off gasses. Now there will be less perc made as there are fewer big launches. After fifty to eighty years of polluting ground water with perchlorates, the US government is working to eliminate perchlorate use (as well as soluble barium salts) in any of their ordnance. Ammonium perchlorate use has dropped way off, with NASA cutting back, but a tremendous amount is still produced and used. Fireworks amounts to a trivial part of the total perchlorate use here. As to cleaning up the hydrogen produced by a chlor-alkali cell; that's fairly routine, even for amateurs (if they [we] care to bother). WSM Edited June 20, 2014 by WSM
WSM Posted June 20, 2014 Posted June 20, 2014 (edited) Actually thats not right.There is an equilibrium between the production of chlorate and perc. Industrial cells are working on high chlorate concentrations to make perc (by adding continous chlorate). Also MMO means mixed metal oxides and there are different mmo's. The normal mmo (what most times gets called mmo) is ruthenium based and not very suited for making perc as they degrade very fast. Also they miss the oxigen overpotential which pbo2 or platinum got I believe iridium has a higher oxygen overpotential than the basic ruthenium MMO, and greatly enhances the physical strength and durability of the coating, which is why most modern MMO formulations often include at least a little IrO2 in the matrix. Unfortunately, as ruthenium is the least expensive of the platinum group metals, iridium typically costs about ten times as much. WSM Edited June 20, 2014 by WSM
WSM Posted June 23, 2014 Posted June 23, 2014 I received the PGI Bulletin #189 today. It has my article in it, homegrown oxidizers part 4. I've already submitted part 5 and expect it in the next Bulletin (#190) before the PGI Convention, the second week of August. If anyone here is an active PGI member, let me know what you think. Thanks. WSM
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