making potassium (per) chlorate

[WSM]

I just tested the water here with a TDS (total dissolved solids) meter and the results are surprising:

 

Tap water: 610ppm

RO water: 039ppm

Distiller H₂O 001ppm

 

I'm surprised the RO water isn't better, but considering how long such heavily loaded water has been going through it without a filter change, it's no wonder. The home distilled water is very good considering any number of residual things that could be lingering from before I took it apart (plus I collected the distilled water in an old vinegar plastic gallon jug, rinsed out with the RO water). I think follow up runs of the distiller should be better .

 

WSM

 

edit: I'm shocked by the dismal reads of my tap water. It's been poor in the past (300-500ppm) but now it's the worst I've ever seen !!! I can't believe we're paying for this stuff.

Edited May 29, 2014 by WSM

[taiwanluthiers]

I am wondering, can an espresso machine make distilled water?

[WSM]

I am wondering, can an espresso machine make distilled water?

If properly set up, I don't see why not.

 

Basically, all one needs is a boiler, a condenser and a receiver all fitted together. Let us know what you come up with, taiwanluthier.

 

WSM

Edited May 30, 2014 by WSM

[Arthur]

Many things will make distilled water with better or worse efficiency, and better or worse service life. To get much volume flow you must have a machine that runs steadily for a long time, and still can have the kettle scale removed from the boiler occasionally. If the scale builds, then the life of the machine reduces.

[WSM]

Many things will make distilled water with better or worse efficiency, and better or worse service life. To get much volume flow you must have a machine that runs steadily for a long time, and still can have the kettle scale removed from the boiler occasionally. If the scale builds, then the life of the machine reduces.

 

There was a little scale in the distiller I acquired; I simply soaked it in a dilute acetic acid solution (dilute vinegar) overnight and it rinsed away. There are always ways to deal with these setbacks.

 

I still think the easiest way to get distilled water is to set up a solar still. That's the way nature makes it .

 

WSM

[Arthur]

My post was more to caution against repurposing other equipment with a water chamber and a heater lest some of them are not meant for long periods at high temperature, Scale removal and structure overheating are two obvious problems with things like coffee makers, fish tank heaters etc.

 

Hopefully a properly designed distillation machine will have a long service life if maintained appropriately.

[WSM]

My post was more to caution against repurposing other equipment with a water chamber and a heater lest some of them are not meant for long periods at high temperature, Scale removal and structure overheating are two obvious problems with things like coffee makers, fish tank heaters etc.

Hopefully a properly designed distillation machine will have a long service life if maintained appropriately.

 

That's a good point, Arthur. I suppose for infrequent or occasional use, the coffee equipment etc would be fine. Certainly for heavy use, the best tool for the job is one made for the purpose.

 

The distiller I got is made from medium guage stainless steel and appears quite stout for it's size. It appears it'll work for the long haul.

 

WSM

[taiwanluthiers]

I tried to dissolve more KCl into the mother liquor after it is spent, and this is where the red stuff causes trouble. I would have to filter the red stuff out as usual but the mother liquor eats any suitable filtering material including old T shirts or lab filters. After a while it turns the filter material into mush, rendering the filtration futile. Is it safe to boil the mother liquor to remove any trace of hypochlorite, then add HCl to neutralize its ph so it no longer eats up filter materials, or should I just try using some diatomaecious earth?

[schroedinger]

You said it swims on top, right? Use a big spoon to take it out. Normally it is safe to boil out hypochlorite and neutralize (do that outside at least), but since we don't know what the red stuff is, i would filter it of first.

You could use DE but i assume that normal sand should be enough (it is solid at normal temperatures right?).

[WSM]

I tried to dissolve more KCl into the mother liquor after it is spent, and this is where the red stuff causes trouble. I would have to filter the red stuff out as usual but the mother liquor eats any suitable filtering material including old T shirts or lab filters. After a while it turns the filter material into mush, rendering the filtration futile. Is it safe to boil the mother liquor to remove any trace of hypochlorite, then add HCl to neutralize its ph so it no longer eats up filter materials, or should I just try using some diatomaecious earth?

Hi taiwanluthier,

 

If you're using agricultural KCl, I think the best approach is to dissolve, filter and recrystallize it before you start (and leave that red stuff on the filter).

 

If you purify your KCl first, I think that'll end the problems.

 

WSM

Edited May 31, 2014 by WSM

[WSM]

You said it swims on top, right? Use a big spoon to take it out. Normally it is safe to boil out hypochlorite and neutralize (do that outside at least), but since we don't know what the red stuff is, i would filter it of first.

You could use DE but i assume that normal sand should be enough (it is solid at normal temperatures right?).

I think dissolving the salt and vacuum filtering is the best bet.

 

WSM

Edited May 31, 2014 by WSM

[schroedinger]

If he got equipment for that, ofc. Or like he stated before in the heated cell it becomes liquid, using a separating funnel

[Mumbles]

When did he say it becomes a liquid at cell temperatures?

[schroedinger]

There was a seperate thread he openend Bout a month ago.

Where he mentions that it is a somewhat waxy stuff floating on top of his cell liquer like an oil

[taiwanluthiers]

Well the problem is it takes forever to evaporate the tons of water it requires to dissolve the KCl. If I do it by heat it would require a lot of energy. I could go with recrystalization but that would mean losing lots of chemicals as well...

[WSM]

Well the problem is it takes forever to evaporate the tons of water it requires to dissolve the KCl. If I do it by heat it would require a lot of energy. I could go with recrystalization but that would mean losing lots of chemicals as well...

 

If dissolving the agricultural KCl and vacuum filtering it leaves it in a clear liquid state (and the red stuff on the filter), I see no need to dry it. Just add it to the cell, as is, as make up water and recharging salt all together.

 

If you need the purified salt dried, start by chilling the solution to 0^oC and decanting the solution off the KCl that drops out (and dry the crystals of KCl). The left over water is still usable as make up water (and probably still has KCl in it).

 

Does this sound workable?

 

WSM

Edited May 31, 2014 by WSM

[taiwanluthiers]

I think I have an idea: I will just recrystalize the salt after filtering, and then heat the now depleted KCl solution up, dissolve more salt into it, and filter that, then recrystalize it... then I can use the same solution over and over again...

[schroedinger]

Yes, that works and peopambly is what WSM wanted to say

[Arthur]

Have you tried solvent partition! take a small sample of saturated solution and float a few drops of a non-miscible solvent on top the red stuff MAY partition preferentially to the solvent, and go from the aqueous layer.

 

Oils, kerosene, petrol(gasoline), benzene may absorb the red material -or may not! It's up to you to do small (1ml max ) tests AND then find a safe disposal for the remains.

 

A saturated solution of clean chloride can be used as initial start up solution and top up liquid so there is little problem in having to dissolve the agricultural chloride. (Have you read the bag carefully to see if it tells you what the red stuff is or why it's there??)

[taiwanluthiers]

No idea what the red stuff and the bag doesn't say. The problem is when I top up with fresh solution is that the process consumes chlorides faster than the water, so I'm basically doing this until the water overflows yet the solution is still depleted. I still need to add the salt to the solution without increasing its volume.

 

I have taken to filtering with colander and old T shirts, because it's faster and more efficient, and I don't need to burn up my vacuum cleaner trying to suck fluids through a funnel... the problem is the dye somehow gets bled into the solution, but the cell reaction ends up bleaching it off...

Edited May 31, 2014 by taiwanluthiers

[WSM]

Yes, that works and peopambly is what WSM wanted to say

 

Well, yes, but I guess I didn't make it as clear as I had hoped to.

 

WSM

[WSM]

Have you tried solvent partition! take a small sample of saturated solution and float a few drops of a non-miscible solvent on top the red stuff MAY partition preferentially to the solvent, and go from the aqueous layer.

Oils, kerosene, petrol(gasoline), benzene may absorb the red material -or may not! It's up to you to do small (1ml max ) tests AND then find a safe disposal for the remains.

A saturated solution of clean chloride can be used as initial start up solution and top up liquid so there is little problem in having to dissolve the agricultural chloride. (Have you read the bag carefully to see if it tells you what the red stuff is or why it's there??)

 

That sounds like a reasonable and scientific approach. A full series of tests this way will likely find a way to separate the adulterants from the KCl, and leave you with a purified salt to use as a starting material, or for replenishing depleated liquor.

 

It's recommended to change only one factor at a time so it's easy to determine what affect each one has (without interference).

 

WSM

Edited May 31, 2014 by WSM

[WSM]

No idea what the red stuff and the bag doesn't say. The problem is when I top up with fresh solution is that the process consumes chlorides faster than the water, so I'm basically doing this until the water overflows yet the solution is still depleted. I still need to add the salt to the solution without increasing its volume.

I have taken to filtering with colander and old T shirts, because it's faster and more efficient, and I don't need to burn up my vacuum cleaner trying to suck fluids through a funnel... the problem is the dye somehow gets bled into the solution, but the cell reaction ends up bleaching it off...

 

It sounds like filtering is removing the carrier (the waxy or oily part), but the red dye sounds water soluble by your description. If the liquor is bleaching the red dye, I wonder what, if any, contaminants are left?

 

WSM

Edited May 31, 2014 by WSM

[taiwanluthiers]

The dye is from the shirt, I don't think it was ever part of the kcl...

[WSM]

The dye is from the shirt, I don't think it was ever part of the kcl...

 

Then it's too bad you don't have white T-shirts to use.

 

I suppose you could soak the shirts in bleach, rinse and dry them before using them for filtering (get rid of the shirt dyes before starting your filtering process). Is that an option?

 

WSM

Edited May 31, 2014 by WSM