making potassium (per) chlorate

[WSM]

Hello WSM,

Thanks for your calculation. I am not that good in chemistry. My 9 liter cell is running no for almost a month. My lead dioxide anode was damaged at the start. But is still running. I lookt at the anode yesterday. And there is no extra damage. I waiting for a few extra days to be sure that al naclo3 is converted. In naclo4. I did a test with suger and sulphuric acid. And not tong is happening. Only a lite bit of fume is produced. The indigo test stil give traises of clorate. I waiting till everything is done. Than clean with some sodium metabisulfite.

 

 

You're welcome, pex (I was curious, too).

 

The Indigo Carmine test with sodium sulfite and acid (I use reagent grade HCl) is the most sensitive test I've seen for minute amounts of chlorate. I wonder if less sensitive tests would give a better picture of "good enough", so you don't stress your electrodes unnessesarily, before cleaning your perchlorate with metabisulfite.

 

Let us know what you find out.

 

WSM

[WSM]

I'm going to jump in here. It's my experience that distilled water never is worth the effort over RO-water. Depending on your water-quality needs, a 3 step, or a 4 step system is right. (Particle, activated charcoal, and Reverse Osmosise membrane for a 3 step system, a 4'th step would be a second membrane running of the product water from the first one.)

A 3 step setup provides water thats the equivalent of your home distillery, a 4 step systems leaves nothing but homeopathic memory effects... (pretty much nothing, that is)

Even crappy RO-membranes have a 95-99.99% rejection rate. Get a good one, and rejection rate should be above 97+% across the board. Run 2 after one and other and you get a 99.91% rejection rate at worst. Since RO-systems are "dirt cheap" and cost to run them is zero, all you need to worry about is replacing the prefilters regularly, and the membranes when your TDS meter starts showing that your not getting purified product.

Thats if we are talking cost effective. If we are talking best possible water, buy lab grade distilled water. You cant beat that with a home distiller, or a RO-system.

B!

 

Thanks for the input MrB. I never use tap water, but typically go with either distilled or RO water. Our tap water ranges from 300ppm to 500ppm dissolved solids (and tastes wretched) so we use RO water for human consumption.

 

I got the home distiller from a neighbor (who's moving) for free, so it's worth experimenting with (I have some testing to do). I suspect it won't be cost effective to make my own distilled water with this machine, but I plan to test it anyway.

 

I agree about using RO water with few exceptions. My RO water tests at less than 20ppm dissolved solids. I planned to run RO water through the distiller and see how it comes out.

 

One thing you said about running the RO system, "Since RO-systems are "dirt cheap" and cost to run them is zero" is not truly accurate. The least expensive RO system for home use that I've seen is about $150 before taxes (that's some expensive dirt), and replacement filters can run up the costs considerably.

 

The running cost is not zero. As a homeowner, I pay for water and it does cost something. When you add in that up to 85% of the water that goes through the RO system gets flushed down the drain, it runs the drinkable water cost up quite a bit. I think the better approach is to capture the runoff water and put it on the lawn or vegetable garden (I don't think they'll mind extra minerals) rather than waste it. In that case then, the cost goes down quite a bit, not counting the cost of plumbing a seconary system to handle the "used" water.

 

WSM

[MrB]

 

I agree about using RO water with few exceptions. My RO water tests at less than 20ppm dissolved solids. I planned to run RO water through the distiller and see how it comes out.

 

That should be the best of 2 worlds. My tap water stops at less then 100ppm, (normally 45-50, but the point where they shut down the service is at 100ppm) and tastes "good". Doesn't taste much of anything to be honest, i have no problem drinking it, few have. After the RO my tester says 0, when it doesn't, i replace the membrane. That turns out to be approximately every 24-36 months. I change the sediment filter when it starts looking anything but white, and the activated carbon every 6 months. The sediment filter is like a buck each time, the coconut activated carbon is something like 2-3. The membrane 10-15 if i buy 5 or more at the time...20bucks for s single. I drink my tap water, and the RO unit i have was, if memory serves me right, rated at 20gpd. New membranes weren't available at that rate, so i had to swap the restrictor, and replace it with a 24gpd membrane. It's currently using Filmtec membranes, but given that i got the TDS meeter, i wouldn't worry that much what brand i stuck in there. The reason i got one at all is simply spoiled aquariums. Reefing works better with known values, so to speak.

 

One thing you said about running the RO system, "Since RO-systems are "dirt cheap" and cost to run them is zero" is not truly accurate. The least expensive RO system for home use that I've seen is about $150 before taxes (that's some expensive dirt), and replacement filters can run up the costs considerably.

My unit is 8-9 years old at this point. It's purely a produce, and use system. Pre-sediment filter, activated coconut fiber and the RO-membrane, after which i run a silicate filter. Cost me the equivalent of about 35 USD. I'm guessing your drinking unit is either a much higher producing unit, or a system with reservoir and such. That would run up the cost considerably, i suppose. My retailer still sells the "same" unit, with the 24gpd membrane, and the price is about the same.. The silicate resin filter is something i added a couple of years ago, when i suspected silicate to be a problem. The resin is color-changing, and goes from bright orange to black when it's "consumed". Nothing so far, so my issues where from the live rock... It's fixed since, using massive amounts of silicate remover in the tank until i got the values to stabilize.

 

The running cost is not zero. As a homeowner, I pay for water and it does cost something. When you add in that up to 85% of the water that goes through the RO system gets flushed down the drain, it runs the drinkable water cost up quite a bit. I think the better approach is to capture the runoff water and put it on the lawn or vegetable garden (I don't think they'll mind extra minerals) rather than waste it. In that case then, the cost goes down quite a bit, not counting the cost of plumbing a seconary system to handle the "used" water.

Your right. Water isn't free. Around here, it's about 1-1.5USD for a m3 with room for seasonal changes. Taking a shower wastes more (cold) water then filling the cell should but sure, it's not entirely free. Something i glanced over seeing as i live in a rental flat where cold water is indeed free. This is of course not universal, and water-cost should be taken in to account.

Running the waste water to your garden sort of depends on what your water holds that gets rejected. But if there isn't anything like heavy metals and such, that should be fine. The minerals are, at least to some extent a benefit, rather then a problem.

 

At 500ppm, up to 20ppm product seams about right. It should start out lower with a new membrane, but if the goal is to produce drinkable water, one just runs it until it no longer does... Well, thats what i would do.

 

Anyway. Yes. You cant go wrong with distilling the RO water. lets just hope that what ever is left in your water isn't stuff that goes through the distiller to. You should be able to get close to, or down to, 0.

Good luck.

B!

[pyrojig]

MrB, you strike me as a "man of detail" That is a good thing. It is nice to see solid info and experience shared here . I have used tap water in past . and can vouch for the contaminates being a bad thing, and ruining electrodes . Although , I was impressed at how long they did last , over 100# before degrading to a noticeable degree. So if one factors in the costs and time and how cheap electrodes can be bought for..........It may be almost a gamble. . I however agree that it is worth going the extra step, and just doing things right.

[taiwanluthiers]

I can't really find distilled water at the store, all they really have is bottled water which from my understanding is simply boiled tap water. I'm not really able to invest in a RO machine at the moment...

[MrB]

I can't really find distilled water at the store, all they really have is bottled water which from my understanding is simply boiled tap water. I'm not really able to invest in a RO machine at the moment...

Hardvare stores, or, house cleaning chemicals section, de-mineralized water for ironing and such. Bottled water is indeed something "different".

(De-mineralized water isn't quite the same as ro/distilled water, but it's generally a lot purer then tap water)

 

I'm just thinking here... Condensed water from drying machines, de-humidifiers, or AC units...? It's not recommended as a source for drinking water since it can get bacteria growth, and older units were made with uncoated metals, but again, it might not be 100% perfect, but if tap water is anywhere near the 500ppm mark WSM has, then it might be a workable solution thats better then the alternatives? Also, rainwater. Just never collect the first minutes of flow from a roof, supposedly filled with all sorts of nasties that settle on the roof in good weather. Also not perfect, but better then nothing. (better then most tap-water, supposedly.)

B!

[WSM]

That should be the best of 2 worlds. My tap water stops at less then 100ppm, (normally 45-50, but the point where they shut down the service is at 100ppm) and tastes "good". Doesn't taste much of anything to be honest, i have no problem drinking it, few have. After the RO my tester says 0, when it doesn't, i replace the membrane. That turns out to be approximately every 24-36 months. I change the sediment filter when it starts looking anything but white, and the activated carbon every 6 months. The sediment filter is like a buck each time, the coconut activated carbon is something like 2-3. The membrane 10-15 if i buy 5 or more at the time...20bucks for s single. I drink my tap water, and the RO unit i have was, if memory serves me right, rated at 20gpd. New membranes weren't available at that rate, so i had to swap the restrictor, and replace it with a 24gpd membrane. It's currently using Filmtec membranes, but given that i got the TDS meeter, i wouldn't worry that much what brand i stuck in there. The reason i got one at all is simply spoiled aquariums. Reefing works better with known values, so to speak.

My unit is 8-9 years old at this point. It's purely a produce, and use system. Pre-sediment filter, activated coconut fiber and the RO-membrane, after which i run a silicate filter. Cost me the equivalent of about 35 USD. I'm guessing your drinking unit is either a much higher producing unit, or a system with reservoir and such. That would run up the cost considerably, i suppose. My retailer still sells the "same" unit, with the 24gpd membrane, and the price is about the same.. The silicate resin filter is something i added a couple of years ago, when i suspected silicate to be a problem. The resin is color-changing, and goes from bright orange to black when it's "consumed". Nothing so far, so my issues where from the live rock... It's fixed since, using massive amounts of silicate remover in the tank until i got the values to stabilize.

Your right. Water isn't free. Around here, it's about 1-1.5USD for a m3 with room for seasonal changes. Taking a shower wastes more (cold) water then filling the cell should but sure, it's not entirely free. Something i glanced over seeing as i live in a rental flat where cold water is indeed free. This is of course not universal, and water-cost should be taken in to account.

Running the waste water to your garden sort of depends on what your water holds that gets rejected. But if there isn't anything like heavy metals and such, that should be fine. The minerals are, at least to some extent a benefit, rather then a problem.

At 500ppm, up to 20ppm product seams about right. It should start out lower with a new membrane, but if the goal is to produce drinkable water, one just runs it until it no longer does... Well, thats what i would do.

Anyway. Yes. You cant go wrong with distilling the RO water. lets just hope that what ever is left in your water isn't stuff that goes through the distiller to. You should be able to get close to, or down to, 0.

Good luck.

B!

 

You're right, my system is the one with the reservoir, etc; but not as high capacity as yours.

 

MrB, which country are you in? I'd like more information about your RO system and where I can get such a thing for $35. You can either say it here or PM me. Thanks.

 

WSM

[WSM]

I can't really find distilled water at the store, all they really have is bottled water which from my understanding is simply boiled tap water. I'm not really able to invest in a RO machine at the moment...

 

Another option for a distiller is a solar still. A sheet of clear plastic on the sunny side of a closed structure at about a 75^o angle, coming down to a split PVC pipe (as a trough) to collect and chanel the distilled water to a collection vessel, will work for a long time and continually produce usable water. It's also inexpensive to use and maintain.

 

Good luck.

 

WSM

[MrB]

You're right, my system is the one with the reservoir, etc; but not as high capacity as yours.

Weird. Over here you cant get a lower capacity unit. The 24gpd unit my local reseller still sells, seams not to be listed anywhere. Makes sense to some extent, my local reseller isn't on the net. Something similar is available on eBay.de. 22-23euro. With shipping it's more then my local reseller, and i'm just guessing here but i haven't got you figured for Euro-zone, so shipping to you might be real crazy.

 

MrB, which country are you in? I'd like more information about your RO system and where I can get such a thing for $35. You can either say it here or PM me. Thanks.

Sweden. The system in question looks like a Aquasafe 3, but my local reseller only has it in (now) 24gpd versions, where as mine is sold as a 20gpd, and got "upgraded" with a 24gpd membrane later. I actually managed to pick up a couple of "standard" filter housings from a "dollar store" so i could get even cheaper maintenance, the stock pre / activated carbon filters were a little bit more expensive then the stuff i got now. Also smaller, and not in clear housings.

B!

[WSM]

Weird. Over here you cant get a lower capacity unit. The 24gpd unit my local reseller still sells, seams not to be listed anywhere. Makes sense to some extent, my local reseller isn't on the net. Something similar is available on eBay.de. 22-23euro. With shipping it's more then my local reseller, and i'm just guessing here but i haven't got you figured for Euro-zone, so shipping to you might be real crazy.

Sweden. The system in question looks like a Aquasafe 3, but my local reseller only has it in (now) 24gpd versions, where as mine is sold as a 20gpd, and got "upgraded" with a 24gpd membrane later. I actually managed to pick up a couple of "standard" filter housings from a "dollar store" so i could get even cheaper maintenance, the stock pre / activated carbon filters were a little bit more expensive then the stuff i got now. Also smaller, and not in clear housings.

B!

You're right, MrB; I'm not in the European union. I'm in the Western US actually.

 

To tell the truth, I really don't know the daily capacity of my RO system. It may well be a 24gpd system. We use the house system to feed a separate spout in the kitchen with a side tap running to the ice maker in the refrigerator.

 

I kept the old unit to use for storage water (after I change the filters), and I do plan to save the waste water for the garden and yard. I know a lot of chlorate and perchlorate used to be made in Sweden due to low electricity costs because of abundant hydroelectric power there. Is it hard to get oxidizer salts there or are you a chemistry hobbiest?

 

WSM

Edited May 23, 2014 by WSM

[MrB]

With the current crackdown on chems, i'm thinking i'll have to turn hobby chemist, but truth be told i'm not exactly well trained in the chemistry of things. Hell, pyro it self is a major mystery to me, i simply work of "known good" formulas, and hope i've caught all the dangerous misconceptions already... So far i've been adding and removing from my formulas for about 20 years, and i'm still alive...

Look, even got all my fingers left:

http://thumbs.dreamstime.com/thumblarge_0/10863025747IIHo9.jpg

 

 

 

Yes... Yes your right. Thats NOT my hand, but the opportunity was to good to pass up...

 

 

Cheers.

B!

Edited May 22, 2014 by MrB

[WSM]

I dissassembled the distiller to the point where I could replace the power cord (which was badly degraded) and reassembled it, cleaning out the dust accumulation as I went. I think I'll give the inside of the boiler tank a soaking in white household vinegar (+-5% acetic acid) to remove a bit of scale I see there. I believe the white scale I see is probably mostly calcium and magnesium minerals.

 

I'll report later how it goes. I havent plugged the machine in yet, I was too tired to do much more than put my tools away after replacing the power cord (and it was time for dinner).

 

WSM

Edited May 23, 2014 by WSM

[Arthur]

Distillation has stood the lab industry in good stead for some hundreds of years,so it's a great find. But RO is probably a cheaper way of making pure water now. Yes there were some failures of Swede's electrodes, which were suspected of being caused by impure water so I expect that distilled water will be very useful for you.

[WSM]

Distillation has stood the lab industry in good stead for some hundreds of years,so it's a great find. But RO is probably a cheaper way of making pure water now. Yes there were some failures of Swede's electrodes, which were suspected of being caused by impure water so I expect that distilled water will be very useful for you.

 

Now I have access to both and I'm considering using the RO water in the distiller for the initial tests of it. I need to determine if home distilled water is cheaper than store bought. If not, then it's off to the market I go for any distilled water I use. I'll run the distiller very soon, log it's progress and report here how it goes.

 

WSM

Edited May 24, 2014 by WSM

[WSM]

I soaked the inside of the stainless steel boiler vessel with white household vinegar (5% diluted to 2% strength) overnight and everything looks a lot cleaner (no scale). I filled the reservoir with RO water and the full mark appears to be one U.S. gallon (3.785 liters). I think I'll run the distiller till one liter of distilled water is produced and calculate the efficiency from there.

 

More later...

 

WSM

Edited May 25, 2014 by WSM

[WSM]

With the current crackdown on chems, i'm thinking i'll have to turn hobby chemist, but truth be told i'm not exactly well trained in the chemistry of things. Hell, pyro it self is a major mystery to me, i simply work of "known good" formulas, and hope i've caught all the dangerous misconceptions already... So far i've been adding and removing from my formulas for about 20 years, and i'm still alive...

Look, even got all my fingers left:

http://thumbs.dreamstime.com/thumblarge_0/10863025747IIHo9.jpg

 

 

 

Yes... Yes your right. Thats NOT my hand, but the opportunity was to good to pass up...

 

 

Cheers.

B!

 

I, too, feel it's best to know how to make materials before I need to make my materials ("Preparation Proceeds Power"). There is something very satisfying about being self sufficient !!!

 

WSM

[MrB]

I've sort of given up. I'm hoping someone will provide a near fool proof system with base chems that are actually available in EU at that point, when i run out of perc. I can be very precise, measurements and being through, isn't a problem. But the chemistry/physics of it all just goes over my head. When i try to understand it i find my self blanketing out. Did the same thing in school when the teachers couldn't keep me interested, but having it happen when i try to read up on something of my own free will is something else. Thats a first.

As luck might have it, "understanding it" isn't really necessary. All i really need, is to understand what requirements i need to fulfill, get a test kit to make sure i stick to the parameters, and it "should" work out.

It's a chicken shit way out, i know...

B!

[taiwanluthiers]

So how goes the test with LD??

[WSM]

I'm going to wait till Monday to run the distiller (Sunday is my family day, plus my Daughter's birthday). I'll post the results when I get them.

 

WSM

[MrB]

Oooooh. A reason for fireworks? Tell her "Happy Birthday from Sweden.

B!

[WSM]

I ran the distiller yesterday evening and was pleasantly surprised. The timer switch used to operate the unit runs between 2.5 and 3.0 hours (I had to leave for a prearranged meeting and the unit timed out while I was gone). I calculated the power consumption and based on the yield and running time, it looks like at $0.15 per kilowatt hour, my distilled water will cost me about $0.50 per gallon, or roughly half what store bought distilled water costs.

 

That's actually good news. I still need to test the before and after dissolved solids and see how they look before I get too excited, but so far it's looking promising!

 

WSM

Edited May 28, 2014 by WSM

[Arthur]

Do you get a cheaper rate for electricity used at night ( I do in the UK ) it makes power hungry things cheaper to run.

[WSM]

Do you get a cheaper rate for electricity used at night ( I do in the UK ) it makes power hungry things cheaper to run.

I know industrial users do, I'm not sure private consumers get the same privilege, though. It would be nice!!!

 

WSM

Edited May 29, 2014 by WSM

[WSM]

Oooooh. A reason for fireworks? Tell her "Happy Birthday from Sweden.

B!

I don't recall ever needing a reason for fireworks, but it's a dandy excuse for them :-)

 

Thanks MrB

 

WSM

Edited May 29, 2014 by WSM

[WSM]

So how goes the test with LD??

Do you mean me? I haven't run it yet because the LD strap looks too small to safely carry much current. I'm seriously considering spot welding a tubular lead to it first. A fellow enthusiast is telling me to try it with lower current, and maybe he's right.

 

WSM

Edited May 29, 2014 by WSM