pyrojig Posted April 19, 2014 Share Posted April 19, 2014 Spot testing is your friend !!!!! (When it comes to buying oxidizers from them). I will be a genii pig if anyone wants to "donate" me a anode for testing ; Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WSM Posted April 19, 2014 Share Posted April 19, 2014 (edited) Spot testing is your friend !!!!! (When it comes to buying oxidizers from them). I will be a genii pig if anyone wants to "donate" me a anode for testing ; genii pig??? Oh, Guinea pig. (Man, I thought I was losing it!) I'm considering running one of the LD anodes with NaClO3 & low power and see how it holds up. I'll let you all know how it goes. WSM Edited April 20, 2014 by WSM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pyrojig Posted April 20, 2014 Share Posted April 20, 2014 Ha , Ya it was getting late .My spelling takes a dive when it gets late. Please keep us posted on the results!!!! I am very interested in moving toward a cheap process for perch production . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pex Posted April 20, 2014 Share Posted April 20, 2014 Can you place a picture of the damage? There is a ebay seller, Who sels them for a good price. 21$ a piece. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pex Posted April 20, 2014 Share Posted April 20, 2014 This is mine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pex Posted April 20, 2014 Share Posted April 20, 2014 . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WSM Posted April 20, 2014 Share Posted April 20, 2014 (edited) Hi pex, I see nothing. Were you trying to post a photo? This is a photo of the first LD electrode I received from patsroom. Much of the LD chipped off from the top end near the strap (see the chips in the bottom of the plastic bag). I was afraid the electrolyte would get between the LD and the substrate and cause greater separation. I held off trying the electrode because of this concern. The second one had chips on the lower corners which gave me the same concerns. I think I'll try the electrode after I attach a tubular lead, filled with solder so it'll be sealed in the cell lid with a modified PVDF compression fitting. I'm planning to use a cathode plate on both sides of the anode, roughly 3/4" (20mm) away. I have a few pounds of sodium chlorate to use as feed stock for the cell. I chose sodium rather than potassium because of the solubilities, and plan to convert the sodium perchlorate to potassium perchlorate by double exchange afterward. I know Swede proved that potassium perchlorate can be made from potassium chlorate (because of his concerns about sodium contamination), but I think sodium removal is easier than that. Industry does it the way I describe, and I'm not sure but I suspect a sodium cell would be easier on the electrodes. We'll see... WSM Edited April 20, 2014 by WSM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WSM Posted April 20, 2014 Share Posted April 20, 2014 . pex, when trying to post a photo, use the "More Reply Options" button on the lower right hand section of the "Reply to this topic" window and then use the file attachment buttons on the bottom of the full window. You first load the photo (a .jpg file works well) then choose (by using the cursor) where to attach it in your post. If you're uncertain how to do this you can practice in the "TEST POSTS" section of APC. Good luck. WSM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taiwanluthiers Posted April 20, 2014 Share Posted April 20, 2014 I found this http://www.ebay.com/itm/Lead-Dioxide-Anode-2-by-6-with-4-stem-coated-all-sides-quality-electrodes-/191121795936?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2c7fbf2b60 I just bid/bought one. No idea how long it will be available, and I've sort of quit doing pyro (I fear shooting 3" and 4" shells, it creates a lot of noise and is louder than what most people use... I've already had the firemen tell me to stop or else they'd confiscate my stash so I don't want anymore unwanted attention, at least until I can find relatively unpopulated area to try it) but still interested for scientific reasons. I'm not sure how cell liquor will damage any exposed titanium but seeing how there are already exposed titanium at the weld and the strap, I don't see how it could be harmful. I mean MMO works fine even with exposed titanium without cell liquor damaging the bond, so can't hurt by trying... Sodium chloride is cheap as hell so I might as well try doing it the sodium route, however I got a bunch of pot. chlorate and just want to see about getting rid of them by converting them to perchlorate. At least the nice thing about potassium perchlorate is the fact that they are barely soluble, so purifying them should be easy. By the way I tried using potassium chlorate to kill some weed (got a bunch growing on the tarmac and stuff) and it did absolutely nothing. Even went as far as dumping cell liquor on them and the plant just lives on like nothing happened. I guess sodium is more toxic to them? (and before you get any weird ideas, weed means stray plants, not the stuff you smoke) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pex Posted April 20, 2014 Share Posted April 20, 2014 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pex Posted April 20, 2014 Share Posted April 20, 2014 Thanks. This is my damage. It's on the top and in the middle Of the anode. I gonna try it alsow. I use a 3 liter cell. And one piece of titanium from 200 x50 mm. what is the best distant for the anode and catode. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WSM Posted April 20, 2014 Share Posted April 20, 2014 Thanks. This is my damage. It's on the top and in the middle Of the anode. I gonna try it alsow. I use a 3 liter cell. And one piece of titanium from 200 x50 mm. what is the best distant for the anode and catode. The best distance for your electrodes is up to you. The best suggestion is to try different gaps till you find the best one for your setup. I've chosen an electrode gap of about 20mm to start and will adjust from there. The greater the gap, the higher the internal cell resistance (not all bad, really) and the closer the gap, the lower the internal cell resistance will be. Be certain not to touch the electrodes together while they're energized or the power supply may fail. For a perchlorate cell, I don't know if the electrodes are damaged by exposure to the electrolyte when deenergized, but in a chlorate cell they certainly are. Have fun and share your experiences with us. WSM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WSM Posted April 20, 2014 Share Posted April 20, 2014 (edited) I found thishttp://www.ebay.com/itm/Lead-Dioxide-Anode-2-by-6-with-4-stem-coated-all-sides-quality-electrodes-/191121795936?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2c7fbf2b60I just bid/bought one. No idea how long it will be available, and I've sort of quit doing pyro (I fear shooting 3" and 4" shells, it creates a lot of noise and is louder than what most people use... I've already had the firemen tell me to stop or else they'd confiscate my stash so I don't want anymore unwanted attention, at least until I can find relatively unpopulated area to try it) but still interested for scientific reasons. I'm not sure how cell liquor will damage any exposed titanium but seeing how there are already exposed titanium at the weld and the strap, I don't see how it could be harmful. I mean MMO works fine even with exposed titanium without cell liquor damaging the bond, so can't hurt by trying...Sodium chloride is cheap as hell so I might as well try doing it the sodium route, however I got a bunch of pot. chlorate and just want to see about getting rid of them by converting them to perchlorate. At least the nice thing about potassium perchlorate is the fact that they are barely soluble, so purifying them should be easy.By the way I tried using potassium chlorate to kill some weed (got a bunch growing on the tarmac and stuff) and it did absolutely nothing. Even went as far as dumping cell liquor on them and the plant just lives on like nothing happened. I guess sodium is more toxic to them? (and before you get any weird ideas, weed means stray plants, not the stuff you smoke) Congratulations on your LD anode purchase. I hope it works out well. I'm thinking about getting one to try, also. I liberally sprinkled some of my course raw KClO3 crystals on some weeds and after several weeks they were dead and dried up. It took about two years before they returned. I think I may re-apply some (chlorate) to keep them (the weeds) down. This is in an area where I don't want any plant growth. Be careful not to track any where plants or grass are wanted. Perhaps you didn't use enough? WSM Edited April 20, 2014 by WSM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taiwanluthiers Posted April 20, 2014 Share Posted April 20, 2014 (edited) I'm not sure how much is needed but I dissolved about 20 grams in about 100ml of boiling water... and poured it on the unwanted plants. I see white deposit of potassium chlorate on the plant but they remain alive and strong as ever... As to flaws leading to failure, I just somehow found old copies of that site that goes into details about per/chlorate production and it appears that GSLD (graphite substrate LD anode) would fall apart if any cracks are present because cell liquor attacks graphite. However I have seen no evidence of cell liquor attacking CP grade titanium... Edited April 20, 2014 by taiwanluthiers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WSM Posted April 21, 2014 Share Posted April 21, 2014 I'm not sure how much is needed but I dissolved about 20 grams in about 100ml of boiling water... and poured it on the unwanted plants. I see white deposit of potassium chlorate on the plant but they remain alive and strong as ever...As to flaws leading to failure, I just somehow found old copies of that site that goes into details about per/chlorate production and it appears that GSLD (graphite substrate LD anode) would fall apart if any cracks are present because cell liquor attacks graphite. However I have seen no evidence of cell liquor attacking CP grade titanium... Rather than pour a solution, I spread course crystals of KClO3 on the ground where I wanted the weeds to die. After several weeks they were dead and remained so for over two years. Titanium and MMO hold up to the cell liquor very well (as long as the power is on). If the power is turned off, the cathodic protection is gone and damage from the corrosive brew that makes up the cell liquor starts to eat titanium and even the MMO somewhat. The best treatment of the electrodes includes removing them from the cell when the power is off, rinsing them off with distilled water and air drying them, till they're needed again. The MMO will last a long time as long as certain contaminants are absent from the cell (a main reason to avoid using tap water in a cell). WSM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taiwanluthiers Posted April 21, 2014 Share Posted April 21, 2014 The problem is the weed didn't grow on the ground, it grows on an almost vertical wall sometimes... I don't think any anode material will stand up to cell liquor with the power off except for the plastic container of the cell... I guess I'll try it again by pouring crystals on the plant, and hope nobody smokes around it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WSM Posted April 21, 2014 Share Posted April 21, 2014 The problem is the weed didn't grow on the ground, it grows on an almost vertical wall sometimes...I don't think any anode material will stand up to cell liquor with the power off except for the plastic container of the cell...I guess I'll try it again by pouring crystals on the plant, and hope nobody smokes around it. Depending on what type of plant it is, chlorates vary in their effectiveness. Have you tried copper sulfate? I believe copper is to plants what lead is to animals. It's worth a try. WSM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taiwanluthiers Posted April 21, 2014 Share Posted April 21, 2014 (edited) Ok I got a cell started to make sodium chlorate. I am using table salt because I can't really think of much else I could use... the problem is, how do I actually purify sodium chlorate? I think sodium chlorate has a higher solubility than sodium chloride so it means I have to put massive amount of salt in the cell before I get anything right? Also, it appears table salt has additives such as potassium ferrocyanide... others have trace amounts of potassium iodide. Are they a problem? Edited April 21, 2014 by taiwanluthiers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pex Posted April 21, 2014 Share Posted April 21, 2014 Boil it down. till cristalls apear. Than Let it cool in the fridge. Take out the cristalls. Repeat this step. Dissolving again in water. After the seccond step you got good ennough Naclo3 for perchlorate production Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
schroedinger Posted April 21, 2014 Share Posted April 21, 2014 Use Sodium Chlorate for killing weeds, they normally start go dry out at the next day Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taiwanluthiers Posted April 21, 2014 Share Posted April 21, 2014 Seems like it would be easier if I just keep dumping 500 grams of salt into the cell every week... until crystals start dropping out. Then I can just keep harvesting crystals and topping up with more salt... I hate the idea of boiling cell liquor, I don't think any metal pot will survive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pex Posted April 21, 2014 Share Posted April 21, 2014 Why not use potassium salt? Boiling beter be done with. Lab glass. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taiwanluthiers Posted April 21, 2014 Share Posted April 21, 2014 If you want to make perchlorate, it is better to do it with sodium salts. Potassium chlorate can be converted into perchlorate but the solubility for potassium chlorate is worse so it will be more challenging. I might try a batch and see how it works... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mumbles Posted April 21, 2014 Share Posted April 21, 2014 Industrially, solubilities make sodium a necessity. For a home cell, we aren't constrained by the same requirements. Might as well try both and see if potassium is really too big of a hassle for you personally. Chloride to chlorate can be done with potassium quite well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pex Posted April 21, 2014 Share Posted April 21, 2014 Oké i tougth that you just want a make just naclo3. But for perchlorate is it better to use sodium. If you want to make it more pure. You realy have to boil it down. I did i a few Times in a oud cooking pot. With no problems. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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