making potassium (per) chlorate

[WSM]

Hi, this is my first post

This anode, Work?

http://www.amazon.co... titanium anode

Best regards,

Marcelo.-

 

Hi Marcelo,

 

Welcome to the group.

 

I bought one of those anodes last year but never got around to trying it out.

 

If your goal is perchlorates, I'd suggest starting with sodium chlorate solution.

 

If your goal is chlorates, I recommend getting an MMO on titanium anode and it will last longer and work better.

 

If you have any questions, ask them here. One of us is likely to have the right answer for you.

 

WSM

Edited September 12, 2013 by WSM

[pyroChile]

Hi Marcelo,

 

Welcome to the group.

 

I bought one of those anodes last year but never got around to trying it out.

 

If your goal is perchlorates, I'd suggest starting with sodium chlorate solution.

 

If your goal is chlorates, I recommend getting an MMO on titanium anode and it will last longer and work better.

 

If you have any questions, ask them here. One of is likely to have the right answer for you.

 

WSM

 

Hi WSM!, thank you for reply

 

My objective is potassium perchlorate, but in my country, not sell, chlorate, perchlorate...

 

So, i want synthesize perchlorate from cloride..

 

I bought this anode (cheap), i think...not work..

 

if yo know someone who as tested with this anode, please tell me..

 

 

Best regards,

 

 

Marcelo.-

[WSM]

Hi WSM!, thank you for reply

My objective is potassium perchlorate, but in my country, not sell, chlorate, perchlorate...

So, i want synthesize perchlorate from cloride..

I bought this anode (cheap), i think...not work..

if yo know someone who as tested with this anode, please tell me..

Best regards,

Marcelo.-

 

Hi Marcelo,

 

Unfortunately, I don't know anyone who's put one to work yet.

 

If I wasn't so busy with work and home now I'd consider trying it with sodium chlorate. I suspect it wouldn't work well in the chloride to chlorate phase of the process.

 

I believe that platinum anodes work best when the chloride level is low and the chlorate level is high.

 

If you can get an MMO anode and make the chlorate separately, the two stage approach to perchlorate production would probably work best.

 

Sorry I can't offer a simpler solution, but I'm afraid one doesn't exist. If I'm wrong, please share...

 

WSM

Edited September 12, 2013 by WSM

[pyroChile]

Hi Marcelo,

 

Unfortunately, I don't know anyone who's put one to work yet.

 

If I wasn't so busy with work and home now I'd consider trying it with sodium chlorate. I suspect it wouldn't work well in the chloride to chlorate phase of the process.

 

I believe that platinum anodes work best when the chloride level is low and the chlorate level is high.

 

If you can get an MMO anode and make the chlorate separately, the two stage approach to perchlorate production would probably work best.

 

Sorry I can't offer a simpler solution, but I'm afraid one doesn't exist. If I'm wrong, please share...

 

WSM

 

Hi WSM!

 

Ok, i'm going investigate!

 

 

Thank you!

 

 

Best Regards,

 

 

Marcelo.-

[WSM]

Hi WSM!

Ok, i'm going investigate!

Thank you!

Best Regards,

Marcelo.-

 

You're welcome. Let us know how it goes.

 

WSM

[WSM]

The first electrochemistry article has been published in the PGI Bulletin. I just got mine in today's mail. Let me know what you think. Thanks.

WSM

Edited November 17, 2013 by WSM

[taiwanluthiers]

You are in Chile right? I read that fireworks are illegal and not only that, because it's explosive you could be tried under a military court, but in practice this is rarely done. I read that from Wikipedia. Just be careful...

[Mumbles]

Was it really necessary to post something entirely irrelevant two months after the fact?

[WSM]

The second electrochemistry article is off to the printers. If you're a PGI member and get the bulletin, let me know what you think when it comes out. Thanks.

 

WSM

[dangerousamateur]

Hi,

 

since I just decided to make a bigger cell, there is one thing still unclear to me:

 

I use an MMO anode and Ti cathode.

 

I read somewhere that you can double the amps on MMO sheets when you place them between two Ti sheets instead of using only one cathode sheet.

 

 

Is that true? After all, the MMO is surrounded by conductive solution and the distance from one side to the other side of the MMO is not very far, also the stuff comes as mesh and has lots of holes.

 

 

So, to get the maximum current with a given MMO sheet without killing the MMO early, does a second cathode pay off?

[WSM]

Hi,

since I just decided to make a bigger cell, there is one thing still unclear to me:

I use an MMO anode and Ti cathode.

I read somewhere that you can double the amps on MMO sheets when you place them between two Ti sheets instead of using only one cathode sheet.

Is that true? After all, the MMO is surrounded by conductive solution and the distance from one side to the other side of the MMO is not very far, also the stuff comes as mesh and has lots of holes.

So, to get the maximum current with a given MMO sheet without killing the MMO early, does a second cathode pay off?

Hi dangerousamateur,

 

Your thoughts sound reasonable but it's been my experience that two cathode plates (surrounding the anode) allows full use of the total available surface area of the anode with minimal electrical stresses on it. I recommend sizing the anode to demand no more than 80% of the total amperage output of your power supply. If your electrode spacing is close, use non conductive, but compatible material for spacers between the anode and cathode plates.

 

Good luck with your project and share the results with us.

 

WSM

 

Edited December 20, 2013 by WSM

[dangerousamateur]

Thank you. MMO is the most scarce stuff for me. Ti is expensive but can be bought easily.

 

use non conductive, but compatible material for spacers between the anode and cathode plates

 

Uhhmm yeah... can you perhaps recommend something?

My first thought would be glass, only i have no experience in machining it. Or maybe cast it in shape.

 

 

Besides, is there any kind of glue or resin or something that can seal the electrodes feed through the cells lid?

I hate the mess always coming through there, it seems to be impossible to seal this.

[DasKapital]

Polyethylene usually can stand up to those conditions pretty well. Worst case scenario, you can look for the same stuff you cell is made of assuming that's plastic of some kind...

[WSM]

Thank you. MMO is the most scarce stuff for me. Ti is expensive but can be bought easily.

Uhhmm yeah... can you perhaps recommend something?

My first thought would be glass, only i have no experience in machining it. Or maybe cast it in shape.

Besides, is there any kind of glue or resin or something that can seal the electrodes feed through the cells lid?

I hate the mess always coming through there, it seems to be impossible to seal this.

 

Hi dangerousamateur,

 

Which country are you in? Here in the US there are several sources for it, if you know where to look. Ti can be expensive, but shopping around can sometimes yield a bargain.

 

For spacers, my best results have been PVC, CPVC, PVDF, PTFE or Viton B; either sheet stock, rod or tube shapes.

 

The best bet for sealing the electrodes in the cell lid is to use filled tubular titanium leads and seal them in modified Kynar (PVDF) compression fittings; no leaks at all! Check out Swede's blog ("You'll put your eye out") for a good description.

 

The solution to the problem is out there, you just need to study a bit more. Ask any question you want to know. One of us is likely to have the answer for you...

 

WSM

Edited December 20, 2013 by WSM

[WSM]

Happy New Year to All. I'm still working on the articles and hope to start posting a blog based on the content of them. I've never blogged before so this will be a new adventure.

 

Swede hasn't been posting here for nearly a year but maybe he'll look in once in a while, and possibly post something. I'm certain he's gone off in a different direction (having so many hobbies and skills, besides family and work responsibilities). I suppose the main reason I still post on this subject is my interest is mainly academic. I actually build various parts and components, but usually only test and shelve them for the future. Once the components are made and prepared, if I have everything required, I may set up the continuous system to see how it works and debug it till it gets good enough to be practical. That done, I may just mothball it till some future point if oxidizers become hard to get.

 

The best thing to use a chlorate cell for is to prepare feed stock for a perchlorate cell. With perchlorate readily available, a wonderous number of amazing colors and effects are possible, if we set things up properly and work safely. Chlorates also make some of the most beautiful stars I've seen and can be used relatively safely if one understands and respects their nature. Chlorates are not the boogy man most folks new to pyrotechnics are taught they are. You need to learn how to use them, plus work safely to avoid foolish (and costly) mistakes. Chlorates and perchlorates are only as safe as those who use them. Be wize (and cautious).

 

Have a great 2014.

 

WSM

[pyrojig]

 

 

Chlorates and perchlorates are only as safe as those who use them. Be wize (and cautious).

This is spoken as gospel truth. A lot hinges on the manufacturer and their ability to work with safe practices .

It is not if but when, laws will push individuals to create their own oxidizers . Blogging will be great thing for you. It will be a source of info. many will use as a resource and practice safe approaches to making their own materials . Im sure here in the near future Swede will chime in and may add some advise or resources .

[Arthur]

When chemicals are harder to trade, I think that Chlorate formulations will return to use in amateur pyro. Few of us can really afford the platinum electrodes needed for perc and some nice formulae are available. Maybe we could be at the cutting edge of formulations by developing working chlorate formulae whilst understanding the limitations and incompatibilities. What concerns me more is the lack of nitrates, if they go off sale then lift and willow stars go off the menu. I really don't fancy the Haber process running in the garden.

[WSM]

When chemicals are harder to trade, I think that Chlorate formulations will return to use in amateur pyro. Few of us can really afford the platinum electrodes needed for perc and some nice formulae are available. Maybe we could be at the cutting edge of formulations by developing working chlorate formulae whilst understanding the limitations and incompatibilities. What concerns me more is the lack of nitrates, if they go off sale then lift and willow stars go off the menu. I really don't fancy the Haber process running in the garden.

 

Many wonderful chlorate formulations never left the pyrotechnist's palate. I feel there's no need to develop chlorate formulas, they already exist.

 

Taking another look at Weingart and Davis will reveal many useful and usable chlorate formulations. Many more are available from talented authors such as Baechle and Swisher, as well as our friends in Malta and Japan. Even lift and willow stars can be done. I'm sure that if things get hard to obtain, we'll figure out ways to entertain ourselves and others in celebrating freedom and holidays with fireworks.

 

WSM

[schroedinger]

Maybe we should allready start to make an extra database for chlorate formulas. Well for lift, there would always be H3 maybee iz could work on bigger shell with quite big granules or more binder.

 

I just hope that i will find some time soon, to show u guys how to make some easy electrodes. Sry didn't found rime for that last half year as i moved

[WSM]

Maybe we should allready start to make an extra database for chlorate formulas. Well for lift, there would always be H3 maybee iz could work on bigger shell with quite big granules or more binder. I just hope that i will find some time soon, to show u guys how to make some easy electrodes. Sry didn't found rime for that last half year as i moved

 

That's a good idea. Now who do we elect to do the work? Hmmm...

 

H-3 would be fine for smaller or ball shells, but I think something tamer would be called for with large canister shells.

 

When you can, illuminate us regarding the electrodes and the perchlorate production you mentioned some time ago. Thanks.

 

WSM

[WSM]

This is spoken as gospel truth. A lot hinges on the manufacturer and their ability to work with safe practices .

It is not if but when, laws will push individuals to create their own oxidizers . Blogging will be great thing for you. It will be a source of info. many will use as a resource and practice safe approaches to making their own materials . Im sure here in the near future Swede will chime in and may add some advise or resources .

 

Hopefully this doesn't happen, but if it does, we'll be ready. Nitrates are a problem, but I think resourceful folks will find a way to get, make or buy them somewhere.

 

I hope Swede does read and post here. His insights have definitely been helpful.

 

WSM

Edited January 5, 2014 by WSM

[schroedinger]

Nitrates will get expensiv in Europe soon, but reading the EU 97/2013 , they will be easly available as Sulfuric acid 50% and common fertilizer.

[WSM]

Nitrates will get expensiv in Europe soon, but reading the EU 97/2013 , they will be easly available as Sulfuric acid 50% and common fertilizer.

 

Potassium nitrate fertilizer here in the US has increased dramatically in the past decade. The last quote I got from a local supplier (about two years ago) was $55 per 50 pound bag (about 22.6 kilos). Mind you, these are the same bags that I paid $12-$17 for each, just a few years earlier. I was told the price increase was due to the price increase in all potassium salts (or, as I was saying, clear evidence of the incredible shrinking dollar), let alone every other metal at that time.

 

I should probably go back there and see what the current price is (at least out of morbid curiosity ), or if it's even available!

 

WSM

[schroedinger]

Well yes i also see these increases in price.

But if you read the EU enforcement 97/2013 are still some quite high nitrate ammounts possible in common fertilizer. Also 50% sulfuric acid isn't listed. So everyone should be able to distill out nitric acid and react this with the right ammount of carbonate.

 

But well this is the perc chlorate thread, we should open a second one f8r this thematics

Edited January 5, 2014 by schroedinger

[WSM]

If I have a choice, buying nitrate is always preferable to making it. If the only option is to make it, and you have the capability, by all means, make it.

If you do make it, please share the details of your process. Thanks.

WSM

Edited January 9, 2014 by WSM