Arthur Posted March 16 Posted March 16 Cody's method of making nitrate is sound! It's the same biochemistry that was used in the Royal Gunpowder Mills era. Cody's nitrate making machine could easily be replicated by any man with a shed, and Cody's use of electricity could well be entirely solar or wind based in any setup. Sometimes you have to realise that pyro takes time. The willow for charcoal needs to be choice sizes when cut and then left to dry for a year or two prior to debarking and charcoaling. In that year or so you could easily make nitre by a bio process, and have it converted from sodium nitrate as made to potassium nitrate as wanted. My DIY isn't too bad, search YT for " 16" shell of shells do it 2017 " my shell built on a holiday still pleases me. 1
bugmenot1 Posted March 17 Posted March 17 13 hours ago, WalterWhite said: Go on, talking your Bullshit. As a German, I for sure know better, what is still legal here and what not. There is a long list, with "explosives precursors" - that all were made ILLEGAL if you are private and don't have special licenses, to order them, like for school experiments, university, professional use and so on. The List includes Chlorates and Perchlorates with purity of 40% and above, as well as HNO3 above 3% and H2SO4 above 15%. I know that the Law sounds very strange and of course they have problems, because it WAS legal before and the chemicals are still everwhere and some stores even didn't stop selling them already, but it doesn't change the fact, that everything you have, will get confiscated without compensation and you get a fine additionally. And I know a lot of guys, who get raided, just after ordering and receiving them. Believe it or not, and keep on to call me "liar" - it doesn't matter to me, I just laugh about you. What you’re writing is contradictory. German stores are notified first that they cannot sell it, so the customers won't get it either. If such cases have occurred, there should be some trace of it on German social media somewhere. We would like to see exactly what those affected are writing. There is no EU regulation regarding potassium nitrate that says private individuals cannot possess it, and you haven’t shown any German law related to this. If we search online, we find the opposite of what you're talking about. Your idea about NPK is also pointless, to separate the components without a purpose, because it’s not useful for us. This, in itself, is misinformation, scaring the community, and an excuse without transparent sources. If potassium nitrate is legal in Germany, they cannot legally penalize you. German webshops legally sell to private individuals, and according to Google search, it is legal in Germany. I didn't find any data on German social media about anyone being punished for potassium nitrate, and I asked the largest artificial intelligences if they know anything about it, and they said they don't either.
WalterWhite Posted March 17 Posted March 17 10 hours ago, bugmenot1 said: What you’re writing is contradictory. German stores are notified first that they cannot sell it, so the customers won't get it either. If such cases have occurred, there should be some trace of it on German social media somewhere. We would like to see exactly what those affected are writing. There is no EU regulation regarding potassium nitrate that says private individuals cannot possess it, and you haven’t shown any German law related to this. If we search online, we find the opposite of what you're talking about. Your idea about NPK is also pointless, to separate the components without a purpose, because it’s not useful for us. This, in itself, is misinformation, scaring the community, and an excuse without transparent sources. If potassium nitrate is legal in Germany, they cannot legally penalize you. German webshops legally sell to private individuals, and according to Google search, it is legal in Germany. I didn't find any data on German social media about anyone being punished for potassium nitrate, and I asked the largest artificial intelligences if they know anything about it, and they said they don't either. It's getting boring over the time... Just visit this German seller, and look on your own: https://www.subolab.de/kaliumnitrat-99-reinst-86cdea3439fef14c/ If you wanna order KNO3, you can't do that, as a private person PLUS you need to fill out this EVE-form, https://www.subolab.de/media/5628/download/EVE_ChemVO_Formular.pdf to explain what you need that for. Without one of it, you simply won't get it. And now try to annoy someone else, please...
Arthur Posted March 17 Posted March 17 The explosive precursors regulations in each European Country seem to be very similar. and make some chemicals hard to buy. However the era of the canon was before the Haber (etc) processes were invented, so there must have been potassium nitrate available. 1
bugmenot1 Posted March 17 Posted March 17 2 hours ago, WalterWhite said: It's getting boring over the time... Just visit this German seller, and look on your own: https://www.subolab.de/kaliumnitrat-99-reinst-86cdea3439fef14c/ If you wanna order KNO3, you can't do that, as a private person PLUS you need to fill out this EVE-form, https://www.subolab.de/media/5628/download/EVE_ChemVO_Formular.pdf to explain what you need that for. Without one of it, you simply won't get it. And now try to annoy someone else, please... I understand that some companies sell to individuals while others don’t. There are German webshops that sell to private individuals. If it weren't legal, they wouldn't be selling these products. There are more, but I’ve left out the ones that require logging in. All of them are German companies. If you look at webshops in other EU countries, you'll find even more. That the EU itself cannot be given to private persons this statement is not true! 1kg https://sf-chemie-shop.de/products/kaliumnitrat-kno3-1kg?srsltid=AfmBOoqKYJZAxsQnuWdL-ur4nYtj4mUnHtRH_O6U4O2Z1EmcIF_icW8- https://www.hilliger-rostock.de/gewuerze-zutaten/zusatzstoffe/avo/66/salpeter-kaliumnitrat-kalisalpeter-bengalsalpeter-kno3-in-lebensmittelqualitaet-rein-ohne-rieselhi 5kg https://www.dutchchems.de/produkt/kaliumnitrat/?srsltid=AfmBOoqjbUHmhEeoBYDASDUFU0p9tNckmt6o9wO26QrM4hvXYlgNyPQw# 10kg https://labstellar.de/Kaliumnitrat-reinst-Inhalt-10-kg_1 Google: „Ist die Kno3 legal in Deutschland? Kaliumnitrat darf in Deutschland legal erworben werden, allerdings ist der Stoff reguliert und Amazon oder der Händler meldet den Kauf.” I read that if someone orders a large quantity with metal powder, there could be trouble because the authorities might contact them, but they also mentioned that they don't deal with KNO3 in 1kg quantities. https://www.gutefrage.net/frage/ist-kaliumnitrat-legal-2 The Germans wrote this as legal advice in a similar case: https://www.gutefrage.net/frage/polizei-war-da-wegen-kaliumnitrat-was-pasiert-jetzt If someone orders anything online, it's worth putting the hobby to rest and hiding other chemicals well. I'm sure you can get it in person at a place like a pharmacy.
mx5kevin Posted March 17 Posted March 17 If you have any finer wood chips, sprinkle them gently with a urea solution regularly, after a year the bacteria will convert them into easily extractable potassium nitrate. Need a 60 litre water barrel to this, it's not even worth trying with a smaller amount. If it becomes earthy, the nitrate is ready. Wood provides the raw material for potassium, All kinds of nitrates are formed from different salts, but this one will dominate here. Potassium nitrate can be extracted from this by boiling, settling, and repeated recrystallization. The method is discreet and inexpensive to implement, but only those who are very determined will implement it, and it is unlikely for a beginner. With almost no chemicals, this is what I would choose for making potassium nitrate. In the past, animal urine was used for this. This is the real old-fashioned way. Birkeland-Eyde-Process it draws too many watts and amps from the electrical grid. And such a device is complicated to put together. Only a very narrow group of the most determined and professional would do this. But it is a proven method that works in amateur circles. I also see that most people get to the simplest things, and if they get more complicated, they don't bother with it. Firecrackers are some of the simplest products, and if we only take magnesium into account, amateurs mix it with almost any oxidizer that professionals use, and some that they don't. In most cases, and in most countries, this is where the concept of amateur pyrotechnics ends. As for oxidizers, the modern economy would collapse if they wanted to remove all of them just for this. Then there's aluminum, from which powder can be discreetly made. In Germany, those who will make them will definitely reach for more dangerous materials. But here, they will mainly be bothering young people with this, not terrorists or criminals. This will only cause mass outrage. I said this a long time ago, and I still think the same: if they wanted to eliminate explosives, they would have to get rid of most modern chemicals like sodium chloride. They will fail at this! It’s already impossible to enforce. I don’t fear that this stupid idea will work for long. Just like with fertilizers, household food production would collapse. Nitrogen is one of the most important nutrients for plants. Those who are planning to do something bad don't even need to touch the chemicals on their list, they will solve it without it! Potassium nitrate with finer wood chips and urea: How to Make Potassium Nitrate from Scratch: Part One (Making Nitrified Earth) HOW TO MAKE POTASSIUM NITRATE FROM SCRATCH in your Backyard Garden: Part II of III Home Made Fertilizer Potency Test (making Potassium Nitrate from Scratch Part III) 1
WalterWhite Posted March 17 Posted March 17 (edited) 2 hours ago, bugmenot1 said: I understand that some companies sell to individuals while others don’t. There are German webshops that sell to private individuals. If it weren't legal, they wouldn't be selling these products. There are more, but I’ve left out the ones that require logging in. All of them are German companies. If you look at webshops in other EU countries, you'll find even more. That the EU itself cannot be given to private persons this statement is not true! 1kg https://sf-chemie-shop.de/products/kaliumnitrat-kno3-1kg?srsltid=AfmBOoqKYJZAxsQnuWdL-ur4nYtj4mUnHtRH_O6U4O2Z1EmcIF_icW8- https://www.hilliger-rostock.de/gewuerze-zutaten/zusatzstoffe/avo/66/salpeter-kaliumnitrat-kalisalpeter-bengalsalpeter-kno3-in-lebensmittelqualitaet-rein-ohne-rieselhi 5kg https://www.dutchchems.de/produkt/kaliumnitrat/?srsltid=AfmBOoqjbUHmhEeoBYDASDUFU0p9tNckmt6o9wO26QrM4hvXYlgNyPQw# 10kg https://labstellar.de/Kaliumnitrat-reinst-Inhalt-10-kg_1 Google: „Ist die Kno3 legal in Deutschland? Kaliumnitrat darf in Deutschland legal erworben werden, allerdings ist der Stoff reguliert und Amazon oder der Händler meldet den Kauf.” I read that if someone orders a large quantity with metal powder, there could be trouble because the authorities might contact them, but they also mentioned that they don't deal with KNO3 in 1kg quantities. https://www.gutefrage.net/frage/ist-kaliumnitrat-legal-2 The Germans wrote this as legal advice in a similar case: https://www.gutefrage.net/frage/polizei-war-da-wegen-kaliumnitrat-was-pasiert-jetzt If someone orders anything online, it's worth putting the hobby to rest and hiding other chemicals well. I'm sure you can get it in person at a place like a pharmacy. Every single Source, forces you, to send your Identity Card, asks what you will need that for, collects your Data for up to 5 years and is reminding you, that suspicious orders will get announced to the authorities... so have FUN if you have no problems to get your visit by the Cops! Maybe they would be happy about a coffee. Edited March 17 by WalterWhite
WalterWhite Posted March 17 Posted March 17 (edited) 1 hour ago, mx5kevin said: Potassium nitrate with finer wood chips and urea: How to Make Potassium Nitrate from Scratch: Part One (Making Nitrified Earth) HOW TO MAKE POTASSIUM NITRATE FROM SCRATCH in your Backyard Garden: Part II of III Home Made Fertilizer Potency Test (making Potassium Nitrate from Scratch Part III) I have seen that Videos years ago already, but the fun is, in the last part, he hasn't even produced a single gram of pure KNO3. Cody's Lab is better, much better to learn something, and NurdRage. And btw. I already built a Birkeland-Eyde-Reactor and I wouldn't say it's complicated, as long as you buy the suitable transformer for it. As I said already, the energy-efficiency is terrible, but who cares, if you can use free Solarpower in your garden, that would be unused, otherwise? Also I calculated, that you - even with the most expensive electricity costs, in the end won't pay more fore a litre of HNO3, than the average price in a lab-shop is, for one litre. And reminding the fact, that they wouldn't sell it to you anyway, or under any circumstances, will monitor your order activities, it's generally not such a bad idea, to better use the Birkeland-Eyde reactor at home, for DIY HNO3. Edited March 17 by WalterWhite 1
mx5kevin Posted March 20 Posted March 20 I found a description of successful synthesis using the old method using scratch, urine for 8-10 kg KNO3. What is important is that potassium can be obtained from wood ash. Nitrogen production only takes place in alkaline environments; the process stops in acidic environments. Once the compost is earthy, there is no problem in principle with further increasing the nitrogen content. During the process, some of the nitrogen is used by bacteria to break down organic matter. Potassium carbonate and hydroxide are usually made from wood ash, which has an alkalizing effect and can be mixed with it when an earthy substance is obtained. Using urea fertilizer, a concentration of 200g/10l can be safely prepared without harming the bacteria. Gardeners use this method to increase the nitrogen content of compost. One gardener said that compost fermented in rainwater contains everything except the most important element, nitrogen. However, with this method, rainwater cannot reach it because it will wash away the nitrates. And should always be kept slightly moist. Link: 8-10kg of potassium nitrate synthesized from scratch and deer urine. There is a picture of it, it has been cleaned up nicely and is white. The method is suitable for homemade production. Quote Yearly post showing off potassium nitrate I synthesized from scratch using human and deer urine. Every year I will start work on a batch of potassium nitrate synthesized from urine. Process takes roughly 7 months and yields ~8-10kg of potassium nitrate. Product is verified through GC-MS. this is essentially the procedure I followed: An area of 15ftx10ftx2ft is prepared, making sure the bed is lined with a water resistant tarp. This tarp is used to prevent excess sunlight exposure, provide resistance from rain, and prevent loss of urine through leeching. The bed is filled with organic matter. Sources of the organic matter are: 1. Straw 2. Cow manure 4. Branches and other plant trimmings .5 wood ash Water is added to maintain a moist environment throughout the process Urine is then added daily, with mixing occurring roughly every 2 weeks - 1 month. After 10 months the remaining solids are separated from the bed, being placed into sever 72 Gal drums. Water is added until the solids are fully submerged. Additional potash is also added at this point. Finally the water is filtered and left to evaporate for several days. Potassium nitrate is then recrystallized through fractional crystallization to separate sodium from potassium nitrate. There are a few steps omitted, but this is the general idea However, this requires a lot of wood raw materials and straw, branches and other plant trimmings. For someone who has a garden, buying one 25 kg bag of potassium nitrate is not too much, and there it is not a remarkably large amount, but is considered completely average. To burn a lot of trees to ash and harvest the necessary amount of raw materials, you need a house with a garden. The raw materials, chemicals, and tools used for pyrotechnics should never be in sight, not just when someone is buying something. The user can be very discreet, but he should refrain from buying safety fuse like Visco online, all metal powders, and all types of online purchases, such as potassium nitrate or where the buyer is asked for any kind of identification. And if someone can't personally procure everything anonymously, they won't be working with the safest ingredients. Homemade Black Match absolutely unsafe, and unsuitable for timing, ball milling magnesium powder also very dangerous. But I only worked with these kinds of materials for a few years in the beginning, and every purchase there was untraceable. I bought potassium nitrate personally this year, and they didn't ask anything in Hungary. If someone buys: oxidizer, fuels, safety fuses, and all the raw materials at a pyroshop, they buy them all at once. Shipping is so expensive that ordering separately online when you can get everything in one place would be a luxury. Suspicious transactions are sure to be reported for the raw materials on the list the sellers. So that the authorities will pay attention there if they find combinations like metal powder oxidizer. But people buy many of these ingredients separated in masse. To get noticed there, have to stand out from the crowd. You can imagine how many people buy potassium nitrate in stores every day for the garden. There is no legal homemade pyro in Hungary. I've bought a lot of things online at once, (like visco fuse with oxidizers, metal powders there was a time when they sent me with two big bags) and I don't know of anyone among my friends who has had a problem with this. But on occasions like this, whoever takes on the task must be prepared for the order to go wrong. The events that have happened in Germany, justify maximum caution when buying something. In the worst case scenario, if a house search were to take place and things were found, they would have to be tied to a specific person, because it does not necessarily belong to the person in whose name the property is located. Never admit that something is yours if someone finds it. 1
WalterWhite Posted March 20 Posted March 20 1 hour ago, mx5kevin said: I found a description of successful synthesis using the old method using scratch, urine for 8-10 kg KNO3. Yes, that procedure is cool and easy, recommended for everyone who has the space to do it. For those with less space, the liquid-process with the aquaristic pump, like Cody did it, can be an alternative. But the disadvantage is, the pump needs electricity, and it's not only the water-pump but also an air-pump required. Doesn't draw so much power, but still something and the powersource has to be present. Anyway, everyone who lives in an apartment without possibility to setup something like that outside, can completely forget that, due to the smell it would produce. Than the B-E-Process is the only way I can image, that's still possible to be useful, with good safety precautions of course.
mx5kevin Posted March 20 Posted March 20 I think the Birkeland-Eyde-Reactor is one of the best for home use. You can make any nitrate you want with it. However, you need knowledge to assemble it. Mini reactors for home use are not widely sold anywhere. It only produces dilute nitric acid directly, 15%/Month/1,5 l it already produces usable amounts of nitrate. In the case of potassium bicarbonate from ~304 g, ~486 g KNO3 can made. Or much more cheaper KCl only ~359 g required for ~486 g KNO3. But HCl gas is also formed here. Or with KOH only ~270 g required for ~486 g KNO3.It would still be acceptable if extracted in about two months in a slower setup. Calculating Mass of nitric acid: 303.75 g HNO3 for 1.5 liters of 15% HNO3 solution. Scratch and urine method, also few people undertake it. This would be too difficult for experimental young people to implement. But both methods are suitable for homemade production. The vast majority like to work with ready-made chemicals, and if they really have no other choice and really need it, they will resort to alternatives. However, it is much more easier to produce it at home using other pure nitrates, what very soluble in a small amount of water. 1
Arthur Posted March 20 Posted March 20 I cannot buy pot nitrate even from my relative who is a farmer with hundreds of acres. However the original processes for making nitrate predates the Haber-Bosch process by hundreds of years probably the era of canons and black powder weapons was over before Haber and Bosch. Study the proceedings of the "Royal Gunpowder Mills" Waltham Abbey, England. ( www.royalgunpowdermills.com ) www.royalgunpowdermills.com/rgm-historic-reprint-series offers a lot of info on methods before high explosives Beware of imperial UK measure and historic names! Whether they dispatch overseas I have no idea. If you must have pot nitrate the old method still works, study Cody'sLab (and others on youtube). Be aware that making nitrate by the bio method will always be available but will take TIME like possibly years, and consume lots of pee and some effort to get urea oxidised to nitrate and to get sodium nitrate converted to potassium nitrate, then to recrystalise everything a few times to produce a product like commercial KNO3 crystals. As nitrates are also of interest to drug grow operators, there are several reasons why States and their law enforcement don't want nitrate on the market too freely. Possession of nitrate may be an offence in your country. 1
Recommended Posts