Covert Posted February 15 Posted February 15 (edited) Hello, I am new to the forum and new to all of this so to speak. I used to play with flash growing up making small ping-pong ball bursts etc. However, completely new to mixing my own BP and at first glace. After searching and searching I know this has been asked a million and one times but reading what the posts I've found and trying to do the suggestions there do not seem to be resolving my issues. So here's my issue. First time I made my powder I did what probably most people do mixed 75-15-10 and shook it up and it sucked lol. So said meh lets try the ridiculous over blown CIA method truthfully with the mess it did create pretty fast powder and I was able to lift my shells with it. Granulated or fine. So I bought a ball mill and next time took and milled the three ingredients together for probably 36 hours. (truly over kill but I didn't have a lot of media so figured extra time.) Powder was still slow. At that point I figured okay maybe it is because of my hardwood charcoal I made so I purchased some Air Float Cedar its not Willow but from what I've read everyone seems to argue back and forth on them. Ran each through a grain pulverize and screened all in a 300 mesh. Then screened all together 4 times and milled it overnight. It was faster but not by much. I know the test burns below are random sizes my shells as they're little under 2". 1.91" tube I've been using smaller grains around 4FA and filling about 20% for lift. https://photos.app.goo.gl/UsvxrwbP6wUkTiHeA -Grain size in shells next to some standard nail clippers for size context couldn't find a quarter lol. https://photos.app.goo.gl/E5zcpE9yQ39xCiZv5 -First burn think it was still drying https://photos.google.com/photo/AF1QipPOfeCfLPQK9wl9PwpgsQamBubcHGlx_ZrAJeKB -Second after sitting in my dry box and then the Florida sun for two days. https://photos.app.goo.gl/ZJQCBaV3cc8Wdr9K9 -Low launch https://photos.app.goo.gl/CW3EZBdiwxrDgeVx5 -Failed / low Sorry video is sideways for some reason. https://photos.app.goo.gl/PygPEnCWTdtemJGFA -Failed Low So after all that. Made a new batch of powder with (50% KN03), (25% KClO4),(15% Cedar Air Float), (10% Sulfur) KN03 was ran in the pulverize then ball milled for a few hours same as the sulfur. Charcoal was milled with the sulfur. the KCIO4 milled together with the KN03. Then all were screen four times together and milled again for some hours. This did burn faster however, still doesn't seem to be up to par. Video of the burn below. Thought I had a video of this launch however, I did not record it so I apologize. The launch was still lower than a standard bought shell of the same size with 25% lift. Now I can get them to launch spiking it with slow flash right ratio is hit or miss if it is going to blow the tube bottom off obviously rather not have to do this as I am sure someone will point out is extremely dangerous. https://photos.app.goo.gl/4DB645MFu7HrPw746 -Burn Just looking for some guidance do I really need to make the lift with 100% KCIO4? Thanks in advance. Hope I didn't break any rules posting this believe I followed them all. Forgot to mention sulfur is not dusting slug etc. Purchased it from the cookbook and outlaw. Edited February 15 by Covert
DavidF Posted February 16 Posted February 16 (edited) I would completely abandon using perc in this way. Try this: for a 306 gram batch, take 210 grams of powdered potassium nitrate, 60 grams of your finest best charcoal powder, 30 grams of sulfur, and 6 grams of dextrin and screen twice through 10-20 mesh to make a visually homogeneous blend. Take a medium size Ziploc Brand freezer bag and dump all the powder in, being careful not to get it on the zipper part. Take 80 grams of very hot water and add it to the powder in the bag. Work it in. Seal the bag up well, taping up the zipper part if needed, to make sure it stays shut.Put the bag in a pot of very hot (but not boiling) water at around 170 degrees Fahrenheit. Put the lid on and leave it for 5 minutes. With gloved hands, take it out and massage the powder in the bag. It should lose any granular texture and become putty-like. When it's putty-like (might take 2 soakings), open the bag up to let air in, and then close it up again, keeping the zipper clean. Now, with gloved hands, slowly form the putty into a ball inside the bag. The bag should come clean. Take the ball out, and take note of the firmness. It will firm up as it cools. When it is firm enough, grate it onto newspaper, spreading it out evenly. Grate it coarsely at first, and then run it through a (10 mesh or so) screen. Let it dry. Screen out the fines, which can go in the next batch. This is a condensed version of a method that was introduced to make black powder without a ballmill (as long as fine charcoal is available). It made OK lift that would launch 3" ball shells. I believe it took about 14 grams in a lift cup to lift the shell to proper display height. There's an article about it around somewhere, but I can't find it. The method was tested and guru-approved for field-expedient powder The article was in a FPAG bulletin a few years back. Please note that the 'standard' 75-15-10 was changed to 70-20-10. This method has been used with mesquite charcoal and with commercial airfloat charcoal. If a well-milled hot BP charcoal is used, 75-15-10 might be fine. ___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ I'd be curious to know what your milling media is, how much is used, and what kind of mill you have. As a GUESS, I'd say you may have a really slow mill with light media, and not enough of it. CORRECTION: THE ARTICLE I MENTIONED SPECIFIES 80 GRAMS OF WATER, NOT 50 GRAMS! I changed it above, but this post has already been copied, so I can't correct it there. Edited Sunday at 11:06 PM by DavidF Correction
All10Fingers Posted February 16 Posted February 16 Is it possible your shells are too loose fitting in your launch tube?I also make 1.91 inch shells and When I was having lift problems I ended up solving it by adding a few additional layers of paper to my shells. By increasing the diameter of the shell, there was less as escaping around the sides and allowed better pressure build up behind the projectile. Not only did my shells start going higher, but they came screaming out of the launch much faster. Now I get shells way higher than before with less powder. I can tell when I get a perfect fit because of the sound it makes. A shell that's too small will make a loud bang with a big fireball. When the shell and tube match just right, the launch is noticably quieter with more a muffled thump and a narrow colom of fire at launch.
Covert Posted February 16 Author Posted February 16 (edited) 4 hours ago, DavidF said: I would completely abandon using perc in this way. Try this: for a 306 gram batch, take 210 grams of powdered potassium nitrate, 60 grams of your finest best charcoal powder, 30 grams of sulfur, and 6 grams of dextrin and screen twice through 10-20 mesh to make a visually homogeneous blend. Take a medium size Ziploc Brand freezer bag and dump all the powder in, being careful not to get it on the zipper part. Take 50 grams of very hot water and add it to the powder in the bag. Work it in. Seal the bag up well, taping up the zipper part if needed, to make sure it stays shut.Put the bag in a pot of very hot (but not boiling) water at around 180 degrees Fahrenheit. Put the lid on and leave it for 5 minutes. With gloved hands, take it out and massage the powder in the bag. It should lose any granular texture and become putty-like. When it's putty-like (might take 2 soakings), open the bag up to let air in, and then close it up again, keeping the zipper clean. Now, with gloved hands, slowly form the putty into a ball inside the bag. The bag should come clean. Take the ball out, and take note of the firmness. It will firm up as it cools. When it is firm enough, grate it onto newspaper, spreading it out evenly. Grate it coarsely at first, and then run it through a (10 mesh or so) screen. Let it dry. Screen out the fines, which can go in the next batch. This is a condensed version of a method that was introduced to make black powder without a ballmill (as long as fine charcoal is available). It made OK lift that would launch 3" ball shells. I believe it took about 14 grams in a lift cup to lift the shell to proper display height. There's an article about it around somewhere, but I can't find it. The method was tested and guru-approved for field-expedient powder The article was in a FPAG bulletin a few years back. Please note that the 'standard' 75-15-10 was changed to 70-20-10. This method has been used with mesquite charcoal and with commercial airfloat charcoal. If a well-milled hot BP charcoal is used, 75-15-10 might be fine. Thank you for taking the time to respond and help me try to troubleshoot this a bit. I will try this and see how it turns out and post a video etc. 4 hours ago, DavidF said: I'd be curious to know what your milling media is, how much is used, and what kind of mill you have. As a GUESS, I'd say you may have a really slow mill with light media, and not enough of it. Currently just using the Harbor fright tumbler. I have modified it a little by increasing the size of the drive shaft to spin the barrel at a higher RPM while I make a larger one in a dedicated dug out away from stuff on my property. https://photos.app.goo.gl/An6n1XzmuueaDg9T8 - Short clip of the rotations seems to be around 112rpm in that clip as long as I counted correctly This was a small batch I had milled. I use Brass have balls and rods depending on the container, for anything that might explode. I also have stainless steel and tungsten bearings for anything that isn't a hazard to use them with. https://photos.app.goo.gl/8Utv3vxSgLUD1xGr7 -Inside barrel of a small batch. https://photos.app.goo.gl/Jsahe8d64kE3w7ec7 -Media Brass / Stainless / Tungsten https://photos.app.goo.gl/m6memuGuEvkW8D2N6 -PVC container with bumps Everything after milling typically is a very fine fluff almost like powder sugar I guess would be the closest thing to compare it with. One last question I forgot to ask. So with lift should I be using Hardwood instead of the softwood like pine etc.? I had initially thought that hardwood would make a faster burn as it burns hotter but everyone stated otherwise. Original post should of said Pine not cedar apologize. Edited February 16 by Covert Added a question and corrected statement.
Covert Posted February 16 Author Posted February 16 1 hour ago, All10Fingers said: Is it possible your shells are too loose fitting in your launch tube?I also make 1.91 inch shells and When I was having lift problems I ended up solving it by adding a few additional layers of paper to my shells. By increasing the diameter of the shell, there was less as escaping around the sides and allowed better pressure build up behind the projectile. Not only did my shells start going higher, but they came screaming out of the launch much faster. Now I get shells way higher than before with less powder. I can tell when I get a perfect fit because of the sound it makes. A shell that's too small will make a loud bang with a big fireball. When the shell and tube match just right, the launch is noticably quieter with more a muffled thump and a narrow colom of fire at launch. I thought that too so went and 3d printed tube shells that are 44mm so 1.73228" and put a wrap of aluminum tape around it. I don't have to force it to slide in but with a fuse or even running a wire down it and just using a electronic igniter to hit the lift with still same result. Let me know what you think. Thanks for the response. -https://photos.app.goo.gl/Uc9NzkGPnaAunfxi7 -Short video of the test shells I have been firing. (Minus any tape)
All10Fingers Posted February 16 Posted February 16 Like you i still had problems running the fuse down the side. When mine are finished they usually just barely touch the sides. I've never had good luck running a fuse through the top. So now I still a small hole in the side for the fuse. So I just measure and pour the lift directly into the launch tube and drop the shell on top. I just had all sorts of problems loading shells the conventional way. With a decent gas seal even weak powder should be able to push a shell pretty high. I'm curious how yours behave after they leave the tube. Do they spin? Do they curl to one side? Do they fly straight up and straight down? Do the shells pop in their way up? Or down? I'm not familiar with 3d printing material but I know slightly heavier is actually been easier to get maximum height. Then again it could be an issue with your powder, I use cheap fertilizer grade nitrate and dusting sulfur with homemade charcoal and my shit is HOT. Assuming you have relatively decent chems (they don't have to be perfect) the only variable left is your process. Either in the mixing/grinding stage or granulation. Both can make it break your project
DavidF Posted February 16 Posted February 16 (edited) Looks like you have everything you need to make good powder, and considerable effort has been put in. If I may, I'll take a few random shots in the dark, maybe something will resonate. Air float cedar? What source? A lot of folks like cooking cedar pet bedding chips in a can with a hole in the lid to make excellent charcoal. It doesn't yield much, but it's good stuff. Harder woods are not popular with amateur pyros for BP. They take much longer milling times to be good, and we are an impatient bunch, mostly. The charcoal is really the heart of good BP. You might try milling the charcoal by itself for as long as possible before adding the other ingredients. Maybe there's a weighing error making the powder? And how many actual grams are being used to launch the shells? I notice that no binder is mentioned. Your grains must be very crumbly, and easily fall back to dust. That's not ideal. Dumping the powder in loose is not the best way, especially if it is dusty. Some of the powder will cling to the sides of the tube, or sit in one side of the bottom, failing to do the work it needs to do. This is especially true if the inside of the tube has residue on it from previous tests. Or dampness. A lift cup is highly recommended. There's no reason this can't be made to work well, just have to find the weak link and fix it. CORRECTION: THE ARTICLE I MENTIONED SPECIFIES 80 GRAMS OF WATER, NOT 50 GRAMS! Edited Sunday at 11:03 PM by DavidF Correction
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