Darkonez Posted January 7 Posted January 7 Hi all i have tried electrolysis a couple of times and I’m having no luck. I’m using distilled water and Kcl salt. I have titanium and platinum Anode cathode. Running 5v 2amp but as soon as I start it gives a green haze but within a hour it’s all brown and overnight the anode had totally dissolved??? Any help or advise.
AustralianPyromaniac Posted January 7 Posted January 7 15 hours ago, Darkonez said: I have titanium and platinum Anode cathode What?? Titanium and platinum anode-cathode? which is which?? both? Your platinum is probably fake. Sounds like iron chloride is forming.
Arthur Posted January 8 Posted January 8 Cheap "Platinum" electrodes are sometimes so thinly Pt plated that it doesn't cover the structural metal, so they corrode. Platinum is expensive and good or cheap and very bad, simply because of the price. If you can't afford a pure platinum electrode buy and use a MMO surfaced titanium anode. MMO is available on ebay. Additionally to ease the life of the electrodes you need to use sodium chloride and use near to a saturated solution, sodium chloride is so much more soluble than potassium chloride. Adding KCl to a finished cell precipitates KClO3 which may be useful BUT KClO3 cannot be electrolised to KClO4.
AustralianPyromaniac Posted January 8 Posted January 8 KCl vs. NaCl electrolysis does not affect electrode life, KCl is more soluble than NaCl at temperatures above 30C, which is how the cell runs. NaCl is needed to go to NaClO4 due to low KClO3 solubility, but KCl to KClO3 makes more sense to prevent sodium contamination. I agree with MMO, it is way better than platinum for chlorate production, but cannot make perchlorate whereas platinum can do that
Darkonez Posted January 8 Author Posted January 8 Just so you can laugh here is a picture of the anode after. eBay purchased by the way lol
mx5kevin Posted January 8 Posted January 8 Platinum electrodes applied to a 5 micron in titanium base are all unsuitable for NaClO3, NaClO4, KClO3 purpose. The electrode must be custom-made by a laboratory platinum manufacturer. This must be made of high-purity platinum. The platinum on a silver base are 200 micron (0,2mm thick). Power supply 6V 4A required. If the 5 micron platinized titanium anode buyght on Ebay It's most likely neither platinum nor titanium. If the anode are not fake 5 micron it will not last long and the platinum coating is not pure platinum either. I've had my platinum electrode for 15 years and there is very minimal surface damage to it. And it wasn't much more expensive than a platinized titanium anode. I don't know anyone who could use these 5 micron titanium-based electrodes for years. But even the tiny 10mmx20mmx0,2mm electrodes made of pure platinum are not a good choice too, nor do thin platinum wires are a good choice. You need the right surface and you need the amps. At 6 volts, a connection point on a thin point is not the best option. It's not even worth trying something like this under a 4 amp power supply. Here are more parameters. A larger version of the electrode I used can be made, but it will cost double amount. there must be used a 6V 6A power supply. The advantage is that it is cheap 6V car battery charger enough for this setup, and a cheap 10mm carbon welding rood for cathode. It will last a lifetime, and suitable all types of chlorates and perchlorates from 400ml to 2000ml cell design.
mx5kevin Posted January 8 Posted January 8 Do not use a 2 amp power supply. Even with a smaller electrode, 1.5 amps can pass through the cell. With a 4 amp power supply, the cell doesn't have a problem drawing 1.5 amps for a long time. The other problem is with large electrodes where they can draw too many amps and overheating the cell. You need a regulated power supply there. However, with the small electrode, this is not necessary because it will not be able to draw too many amps. You cannot make perchlorates with MMO anodes, only chlorates. It is also worth purchasing a PbO2 anode, but both only from a trusted manufacturer. I saw someone selling a PbO2 anode made in their garage on Ebay. I also don't recommend anyone trying to make anodes at home. Cheap and easy homemade PbO2 anodes will not succeed, to do it precisely costs at least as much as the total cost of producing perchlorate, including all the equipment. If anyone still thinks that's not the case, they'll see that their anode will quickly wear out. If larger electrodes are used required a adjustable lab power supply. I do not recommend anyone to just connect an unregulated 15 amp or higher power supply to the cell. About the factory made PbO2 anodes, a lifespan of between of this anodes six months and one year calculated of total maximal run time should be expected. Here is a detailed study mainly on homemade PbO2 anodes. I heard that there were sellers who promised surreal unrealistic lifespans for PbO2 anodes. MMO anodes perform very well in chlorate cells, withstanding a lot of use, much more than PbO2 in perchlorate cells. But they can't last forever either. The latter is said to last for three years of continuous operation. 3-10 year lifespan in RuO2, IrO2 MMO anodes at factory setup in a NaCl to NaClO3 setup. 1-3 year lifespan in PbO2 (using a titanium base) anodes at factory setup in a NaClO3 to NaClO4 setup.
Arthur Posted January 9 Posted January 9 Remember also that normal operation of a chlorate cell slowly goes off running pH and this needs correction regularly.
Darkonez Posted Saturday at 07:33 PM Author Posted Saturday at 07:33 PM New setup. Different anode and power supply, using Sodium as the base to start this time. Added a lid with a gas release pipe and an access point to top up the sodium and check and adjust PH. IMG_5059.mov
FrankRizzo Posted Saturday at 11:06 PM Posted Saturday at 11:06 PM Dark - You can get those same MMO anodes a lot cheaper as the "sanitizer generator" bottles on eBay.
mx5kevin Posted Saturday at 11:26 PM Posted Saturday at 11:26 PM (edited) 4 hours ago, Darkonez said: New setup. Different anode and power supply, using Sodium as the base to start this time. Added a lid with a gas release pipe and an access point to top up the sodium and check and adjust PH. IMG_5059.mov The assembly is good with the MMO anode, but the adapter is not. You will need a minimum of 4 amps and max 6V with these MMO anodes. The problem with the current power supply is that the circuit can be overloaded, and the cell will also produce slowly. Buy a 6V 4A car battery charger. The battery charger should not be a small digital one, use a larger type what should have a 6-12 volt switch and an analog charge meter. I see that it contains freshly made brine. Electrolysis will slow down as the process progresses. What I would replace that container to a 2-liter screw-top plastic mason jar. I would run the electrodes deep below the solution. 1000mA or even 2000mA adapter is not really suitable for production. It might not be ready after another month. I think whit this pair of electrodes can easily pass through the cell 1 amp or more, but they are very far apart. If you can't insulate the cell well and the chlorine are leaking run it outdoor. It is worth adding a few meters of 20 amp 1.5 Sqmm single core black and blue wire. If you want KClO3 from concentrated KCl solution the production time will have a fraction compared with NaCl. Edited Saturday at 11:46 PM by mx5kevin
mx5kevin Posted Saturday at 11:30 PM Posted Saturday at 11:30 PM 23 minutes ago, FrankRizzo said: Dark - You can get those same MMO anodes a lot cheaper as the "sanitizer generator" bottles on eBay. You shouldn't buy those, they fall apart. The electrodes he bought are a good choice.
Darkonez Posted yesterday at 12:07 AM Author Posted yesterday at 12:07 AM Thank you for the info guys. I’ve run it for three days previously to today and produced around 15mm in a 500ml jar of chlorate (needs to dry before weighing) but looks very good quality so far. I’m going to upgrade all the gear with a variable power supply and some better anode and cathode that Arthur showed me, but need a bit more cash for this so end of the month I will be treating the wife so I can treat myself lol. This was just a quick trial after more reading and speaking with Arthur and I had all the gear apart from the £12 Anode. When I get an idea I just can’t wait!!!
FrankRizzo Posted yesterday at 03:18 AM Posted yesterday at 03:18 AM (edited) 3 hours ago, mx5kevin said: You shouldn't buy those, they fall apart. The electrodes he bought are a good choice. To double-check that we're talking about the same thing, this is a listing for the bottles I'm talking about: https://www.ebay.com/itm/154047574899 Or https://www.ebay.com/itm/275937666427 Many people have had good luck. The first link are the exact same geometry. As long as you're just doing chloride->chlorate, they're fine. Edited yesterday at 03:24 AM by FrankRizzo
mx5kevin Posted 19 hours ago Posted 19 hours ago 9 hours ago, Darkonez said: Thank you for the info guys. I’ve run it for three days previously to today and produced around 15mm in a 500ml jar of chlorate (needs to dry before weighing) but looks very good quality so far. I’m going to upgrade all the gear with a variable power supply and some better anode and cathode that Arthur showed me, but need a bit more cash for this so end of the month I will be treating the wife so I can treat myself lol. This was just a quick trial after more reading and speaking with Arthur and I had all the gear apart from the £12 Anode. When I get an idea I just can’t wait!!! I think a power supply replacement is enough. Current electrodes are suitable for up to a 2 liter cell. It's not worth spending too much if the goal is to make chlorates. Buy a M3 mask specialized to protect against chlorine, closed goggles like swimming goggles, and gloves. Do not inhale chlorine, even in small amounts, or allow it to come into contact with your eyes or spread throughout the room. If the solution is heated, it is best to work with it outdoors. A 2-liter screw-top plastic mason jar replacement is enough. If 500-1000g KClO3 are enough for you/year this setup are excelent. 6 hours ago, FrankRizzo said: To double-check that we're talking about the same thing, this is a listing for the bottles I'm talking about: https://www.ebay.com/itm/154047574899 Or https://www.ebay.com/itm/275937666427 Many people have had good luck. The first link are the exact same geometry. As long as you're just doing chloride->chlorate, they're fine. I know these devices, most of them have a very small MMO anode that cannot tolerate more than amperage on 6V. You shouldn't buy anything like that. This is not worth saving on. These are cheap Chinese junk that won't stand a single chlorate production for us. There are plenty of places to get quality MMO anodes. If the entire device itself is cheaper than an MMO anode, that product certainly does not contain quality electrodes. But the electrodes we need are not used for these Chinese sprays. It is used for swimming pools and other more serious equipment that we need. Lead dioxide anode is much more difficult to obtain for perchlorates. It is worth purchasing at least 2 lead dioxide anodes first, and calculating 1 MMO anode for that. But this is still not the best choice, but a unique thick platinum cylinder on silver base what I have. This is bought once and will work for a lifetime. Having to throw something away because it's not good in the long run is a lot of extra cost.
Darkonez Posted 18 hours ago Author Posted 18 hours ago Thanks again. Would you be able to link or show an example of your platinum coated tube you use.
Arthur Posted 16 hours ago Posted 16 hours ago One important point to remember; Platinum and Cheap do not go together ( try calling £775 ($955) per ounce (troy) cheap!). If someone offers cheap platinum then either it's very thin or it's stolen or it's not titanium.
mx5kevin Posted 15 hours ago Posted 15 hours ago (edited) 2 hours ago, Darkonez said: Thanks again. Would you be able to link or show an example of your platinum coated tube you use. https://www.amateurpyro.com/forums/blogs/entry/171-the-homemade-chlorate-and-perchlorate-project/ https://www.amateurpyro.com/forums/topic/14212-my-easy-way-of-making-k-perchlorate/page/4/#comments https://mx5-kevin.blogspot.com https://sufnipiro.wordpress.com Cathode 10mm thick carbon welding rod are ideal for chlorates and perchlorates (coated with a thin layer of copper which can be easily removed with a knife). The big black are the cathode 8mm welding rod, the anode are the smaller one, cell 700ml, power supply 6V 4A car battery charger (manual) 6-12V 4A. Current amps what pass through the cell minimum 0,5 amp to 1,5 amp. At the beginning (NaCl) 1,5 amp at the end of the process (NaClO4) 0,5 amp. The amps are dropping down as the process progresses and this is natural. These are the minimum parameters required for production! Up to 2000ml this setup are ideal. The platinum electrode is over 10 years old and is still in perfect condition, with both ends completely coated with platinum. My electrode parameters: 3x70mm silver rod x0.2mm platinum, the entire rod is coated with platinum. It cannot be produced with a weaker electrode than this! Summary: Silver weight: approximately 5.18 grams Platinum weight: approximately 3.05 grams Required a 6V 4A power supply Maximum size: 5x70mm silver rod x0.2mm platinum, the entire rod is coated with platinum Summary: Silver weight: approximately 14.4 grams Platinum weight: approximately 4.94 grams Required a 6V 8A power supply It is not worth investing in anything more serious than the latter 5x70mm silver rod x0.2mm platinum electrode. Edited 15 hours ago by mx5kevin
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