Giammy7 Posted November 25 Posted November 25 Potassium Pernitrate (“KNO4”)information about this oxidizer
FrankRizzo Posted November 25 Posted November 25 As Zumber said, KNO4 cannot exist as the anion, NO−4 , doesn't exist.
Arthur Posted November 25 Posted November 25 The first two things to remember about firework ingredients are Available and Cheap. Your hyperthetical anion NO4- is neither. There are dozens of elements that may possibly have uses but their price and rarity rules them out even if they might make a mythically good colour or effect. NO4- does exist transitorily in aqueous solution under extreme conditions BUT it decomposes as it dries. Even well known oxidisers have problems chlorate with sulphur being one example. Remember that a professional firework must be stable in storage and transport for a period possibly measured in years then be safely ignited to function correctly when wanted. The minimum shelf life needed for a firework is six months cycling from heated to dryness in a sun-baked container to rain and 100% humidity in rain and seaspray -this being while in transit from China to it's place of import.
Giammy7 Posted November 25 Author Posted November 25 (edited) 6 ore fa, Zumber ha detto: Un po' dubbioso se esista o meno 🤐 I'm confused, Edited November 25 by Giammy7
Arthur Posted November 25 Posted November 25 Sadly even if you've used a few kilos and proved it's effectiveness it has to be cheaper than KNO3 and better and readily available from wholesalers AND it needs a history of being benign in all other reactions and uses, it's no use if it has sensitivities and incompatibilities like chlorates. Potassium Nitrate has a history going back 500 or more years as a component of cannon powder and early gun powder, as a result it's incompatibilities and sensitivities are well established.
robbo Posted November 25 Posted November 25 Does nitric acid have a peracid, like organic acids can have peracids? Maybe that's what this is about?
FrankRizzo Posted November 26 Posted November 26 9 hours ago, Arthur said: The first two things to remember about firework ingredients are Available and Cheap. Your hyperthetical anion NO4- is neither. There are dozens of elements that may possibly have uses but their price and rarity rules them out even if they might make a mythically good colour or effect. NO4- does exist transitorily in aqueous solution under extreme conditions BUT it decomposes as it dries. Even well known oxidisers have problems chlorate with sulphur being one example. Remember that a professional firework must be stable in storage and transport for a period possibly measured in years then be safely ignited to function correctly when wanted. The minimum shelf life needed for a firework is six months cycling from heated to dryness in a sun-baked container to rain and 100% humidity in rain and seaspray -this being while in transit from China to it's place of import. Arthur - Could you explain how it would be possible to have, NO4- , even transitorily.
Crazy Swede Posted November 26 Posted November 26 @Giammy7, where have you seen that material for sale? I guess it is a way of faking selling potassium perchlorate through calling it something else. Potassium pernitrate does not exist!
Arthur Posted November 26 Posted November 26 Wiki put forward a hypothesis that a pernitrate is a peroxide linked Metal ion and a nitrate ion (on 25nov24 there was a whole page of theory but it doesn't search on 26nov24). The article stated that it was a product of potassium, nitrate and hydrogen peroxide, it also clearly stated that potassium pernitrate existed in aqueous solution and as crystals in water BUT spontaneously decomposed on drying. HOWEVER Wikipedia isn't the best source for cutting edge chemistry unless the page is by a trusted person. My two caveats I mentioned in post 4 in this thread still apply. Firework ingredients must be cheap and readily available. Fireworks/pyrotechnics manufacture uses cheap ingredients that make mixtures with a long shelf life stability (there are live historic fireworks in the UK being traded for Ridiculous prices). Bringing a new ingredient to market commercially will take much effort by the maker/marketer and probably take years to develop the confidence of the firework factories. Other industries especially space exploration are more likely to use unusual -even novel- propellants especially for the dierctional steerage systems. HOWEVER their systems usually entail a multi billion test regime! Someone would have to work hard to convince me to use a new oxidiser (that's typically about 60 to 75% of a compound) without some serious research.
Giammy7 Posted November 26 Author Posted November 26 35 minutes ago, Crazy Swede said: @Giammy7, dove hai visto quel materiale in vendita? Immagino che sia un modo per fingere di vendere perclorato di potassio chiamandolo in modo diverso. Il pernitrato di potassio non esiste! https://blast-tec.com/vare-kategori/chemicals/metals/
mx5kevin Posted November 26 Posted November 26 (edited) Peroxynitric acid HNO4 which is an inorganic compound exist. This was produced as an experiment a long time ago. An unstable, highly explosive acid created by an extremely unstable peroxide bond. Potassium pernitrate possible to exist, science is developing, maybe they are already producing something like this. However, I don't know any manufacturer or distributor. If they were manufactured, there would be a wider range of specific manufacturers, but the manufacturer is not named either. KMnO4 are exit which is potassium permangamate, is someone write MNO4 the typo is because it doesn't contain nitrogen, only manganese Mn. If somebody have a problem with the webshop, please report it to the community. blast-tec.com are the old pyrohub.eu site. They are selling 40% water mixed KClO3 and KClO4 which can thus be given to private individuals. In this form, it is an important source of supply for us, but only if the website is reliable. Please provide useful feedback to the community regarding webshops and other sources of purchase, whether they are reliable or not, good or bad experiences. Edited November 26 by mx5kevin
mx5kevin Posted November 26 Posted November 26 (edited) blast-tec.com the old pyrohub.eu site are the dubious category based on consumer feedback. I don't know of any other site in the EU where private individuals can buy 40% KClO4 mixed with 60% water. I know many another webshops that I can say they are clearly reliable. But this webshop are very much in the dubious category. See: https://www.trustpilot.com/review/pyrohub.eu The URL of the website changed not long ago, before that they were down for a certain period of time. pyrohub.eu are redirect now to blast-tec.com, this with the KNO4 potassium pernitrate are a red flag. Edited November 26 by mx5kevin
Giammy7 Posted November 26 Author Posted November 26 10 minutes ago, mx5kevin said: blast-tec.com the old pyrohub.eu site are the dubious category based on consumer feedback. I don't know of any other site in the EU where private individuals can buy 40% KClO4 mixed with 60% water. I know many another webshops that I can say they are clearly reliable. But this webshop are very much in the dubious category. See: https://www.trustpilot.com/review/pyrohub.eu The URL of the website changed not long ago, before that they were down for a certain period of time. pyrohub.eu are redirect now to blast-tec.com, this with the KNO4 potassium pernitrate are a red flag. Can you tell me these sites please?
FrankRizzo Posted November 26 Posted November 26 38 minutes ago, mx5kevin said: Peroxynitric acid HNO4 which is an inorganic compound exist. This was produced as an experiment a long time ago. An unstable, highly explosive acid created by an extremely unstable peroxide bond. Potassium pernitrate possible to exist, science is developing, maybe they are already producing something like this. However, I don't know any manufacturer or distributor. If they were manufactured, there would be a wider range of specific manufacturers, but the manufacturer is not named either. mx5kevin - That compound would be called potassium peroxynitrite.
CountZero Posted November 26 Posted November 26 Apparantly it is gimmick to get around the restrictions on perchlorate to individuals in EU. It is a blend of 60 KNO3 and 40 KClO4. 1
mx5kevin Posted November 26 Posted November 26 19 minutes ago, Giammy7 said: Can you tell me these sites please? https://mx5-kevin.blogspot.com/2021/07/egy-kis-segitseg.html https://sufnipiro.wordpress.com I made a collection of links for the users in the EU using Hungarian language from trusted webshops, techical help, professional materials and other things that may be important. I search a lot on the Internet, so I regularly come across feedback from users and recent events related to homemade pyro. In order for this to be as accurate as possible on the Internet, users must give appropriate feedback somewhere.
mx5kevin Posted November 26 Posted November 26 (edited) 26 minutes ago, CountZero said: Apparantly it is gimmick to get around the restrictions on perchlorate to individuals in EU. It is a blend of 60 KNO3 and 40 KClO4. What I'm talking about is a different product. Not more concentrated 40% KClO4 mixed with 60% water. KNO4 cannot be such a product. In theory, KNO4, if someone has produced it, is a peroxide bond and cannot be stable for such a purpose. And they do not indicate who the manufacturer is, the production of such a compound requires a very professionally equipped plant. Such a compound will not only be sold in a small webshop. Edited November 26 by mx5kevin
mx5kevin Posted November 26 Posted November 26 Here the question is who are an old reliable member's and buyght from them example 40% KClO4, 60% H2O, or 40% KClO3 60% Water, (Pyro liquid product), received the desired product? Or were there problems with the product or with the purchase of another product?
mx5kevin Posted November 26 Posted November 26 In the case of KClO4 when 60% water mixed with 40% KClO4, minimal 17g/l KClO4 is soluble only in water. The crystals are just mixed with water. Other webshops could also sell this in the EU, because it can be sold this way to private individuals. In theory, the idea itself meets the (EU Explosives Precursors Regulation) legal requirements.
CountZero Posted November 26 Posted November 26 From what i have seen, sometimes the water has evaporated before delivery...
Arthur Posted November 27 Posted November 27 If it's simply a new compound to get round the precursor regulations then assume that the regulation list will soon change to include it.
mx5kevin Posted November 27 Posted November 27 (edited) 2 hours ago, Arthur said: If it's simply a new compound to get round the precursor regulations then assume that the regulation list will soon change to include it. They're treating the customers like fools, it's that simple. There's nothing new in terms of ingredients here. Stable at room temperature in this dry powder form, such a thing may not even exist. Safety data sheet, manufacturer, there is no data, special conditions are required to prepare HNO4, it decomposes at room temperature. A very easy way to lose customers is to scam them. That powder is almost certainly not KNO4 (not possible to buy pernitrates in any form anywhere, this simply does not exist). Maybe some fine powdered KNO3 with or without anticake. If they are serious about this, how can we trust the quality of other products, or anything else. Edited November 27 by mx5kevin
Crazy Swede Posted November 27 Posted November 27 @mx5kevin, did you not read the answer by CountZero above? It is a dry mixture och potassium perchlorate and potassium nitrate in a ditch attempt to sell what the customers cannot buy legally.
mx5kevin Posted November 27 Posted November 27 (edited) 4 hours ago, Crazy Swede said: @mx5kevin, did you not read the answer by CountZero above? It is a dry mixture och potassium perchlorate and potassium nitrate in a ditch attempt to sell what the customers cannot buy legally. I couldn't find any information about this on the official website. Such a mixture would be useless to us. The product is too cheap to be KClO4. The 40% KClO4 mixed with water product are avilable, which is good for everyone. And currently this is their only advantage over other webshops. The Potassium Nitrate Super Fine Powder (KNO3), and this KNO4 using the same picture. Another webshops have Potassium Nitrate Super Fine Powder (KNO3) pure or with ACA. And so it would fit somewhere with ACA. Personally, I've never bought anything from them. I haven't received any feedback from anyone I know who is an old trusted pyromaniac regarding the webshop. Based on the feedback from those who have given it from the buyers, the webshop is not one of those that are most trustworthy. Which is still strange to me: Magnesium [40µm] Passivated. Passivated with what? Others and I need it without this to correctly coat it, and others don't sell this. I buy pure magnesium powder and don't take any risks. Nitrocellulose: No one sells in form like this, it cannot be stored, shipped dry in that cotton wool form. Those who sell it are in granule form. KClO3 KClO4 in the same price. They are actually similar in price now. A less noticeable thing. But KClO3 is a little cheaper elsewhere now too. In the past, this price difference was significant in all webshops. If I buy a metal powder, it details the purity, the grain size in percentage, who is the manufacturer. It even describes the differences. Edited November 27 by mx5kevin
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