Smoke/Powder Columns

[Soloserly]

I've seen a few of these daytime "smoke" cakes that shoot a column of colored powder in a nice clean vertical column, and so far I've been unable to replicate the effect.

In this slow-mo video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jKv4Pb0SEJE at around 4:49 it shows what looks like tubes of powder flipping end-over end and disbursing the powder, but in most of my tries the powder compacts in the tube at liftoff and doesn't come out at all until the tube hits the ground. 

I've tried:

1. loading a "plug" dummy bombette on top of burst powder and then a cardboard disk on top of that, then pouring loose colored powder on top of that.  In all three attempts it just compacted the powder and plugged the tube, causing it to burst out the side. 

2. Using a "plug" like in #1, but placing the colored powder in a thin-walled insert tube with the ends capped only with a single layer of tissue paper (single-ply t.p.) glued over the ends.  The powder stayed in the tube and never disbursed. 

3.  Same as #2 except one end was plugged with a paper cap and the other was left open.  A little powder come out as it fell back to the ground. 

4. Same as #2 except NEITHER end of colored powder tube was plugged.  I just put a cardboard disk between the tube and the plug.  The powder stayed in the tube until it hit the ground.

5. Wrapping the powder in a single-layer of kraft paper like a hard candy.  The packet fell to the ground without opening. 

Is the problem the powder?  It is very fine; does it need to be mixed with something coarser to keep it from compacting?  I've tried chalk powder and corn starch, but haven't mixed the two.  Am I using too much lift? - The biggest insert tubes for the colored powder that I've used so far were 27mm, would it work better with larger tubes? 

I'm NOT looking for the "instant cloud" effect like from a hand-held compressed air confetti cannon or an aerial smoke or powder shell.  Eventually, I want to get where the "plug" is a live shell that shoots up through a column of colored powder and then bursts above it. 

I'd love to figure out how this works for a family celebration coming up.

I've looked all over for a USA distributor of these kinds of cakes but have only found distributors in China who will gladly send 100+ of them for a few $K.

[PyroSim]

if i'd try to replicate this, i'd probably put lift powder in a tube and plug it with a thick cardboard disk, then put a long tube with powder on top with the bottom end open.
So no flipping around, just when it launches out the tube it starts pouring out the bottom. You can change the diameter and length of the tube to get longer or thicker tails.
I've read that the color run powder works well.

[Arthur]

I like the effect BUT I'd hate the clear up. 

[PyroSim]

Probably best to get some biodegradable powder that washes away with some rain, cleaning this up another way is probably next to impossible

[Soloserly]

I've seen many daytime shows with this kind of effect and there's very little mess.  It tends to disperse over a miles-wide area and there's usually no sign of it to be found except tubes and caps - like any other pyro show.

[FrankRizzo]

They indicate that it's "powder", maybe because they're trying to simplify the explanation, but likely they just don't know. Those are smoke cartridges. Each of those inserts contains granulated smoke composition that ignites and leaves a bushy trail of colored smoke behind.

[Soloserly]

On 9/24/2024 at 10:51 PM, FrankRizzo said:

They indicate that it's "powder", maybe because they're trying to simplify the explanation, but likely they just don't know. Those are smoke cartridges. Each of those inserts contains granulated smoke composition that ignites and leaves a bushy trail of colored smoke behind.

That makes sense, but I haven't found a smoke comp that ignites that quickly or puts out such thick smoke within a few milliseconds of ignition.  Any idea what's capable of doing that?  I've tried loading the bottom of bombettes with normal smoke comps but they don't really start producing smoke until the shell is at apex or even after burst.

[Crazy Swede]

Some of these effects are based on smoke stars/comets that have an incredible burn rate. I have studied this somewhat but have not been able replicate it. 

If tubes with perforations, containing primed granulated smoke composition, are used things get easier but less elegant. 

[FrankRizzo]

As Swede mentions, the granulated comp is loaded loose in a perforated tube. I've got a video somewhere of Japanese smoke inserts. I'll see if I can find it for you.

Edited September 28 by FrankRizzo

[Soloserly]

On 9/28/2024 at 12:26 PM, FrankRizzo said:

...I've got a video somewhere of Japanese smoke inserts. I'll see if I can find it for you.

If you can find it that would be awesome.  I got a copy of Joseph Domanico's presentation from PGI2000 (which is fascinating) and it gives the various general factors for increasing the speed of smoke generation, but isn't specific enough to know how to actually do it.

[PyroGnome]

Keep in mind that the solvent dyes used for pyro (in every case that I've been able to find a proper SDS) tend towards being ungodly carcinogens or have partial combustion products that are, because those early dyes were super cheap to make.  The majority of the ones Shimizu lists are fairly nasty.  That video is about the distance I'd want to be from any of them.  Nobody really regulates stuff like this but there are also a fairly limited number of dyes that will actually work so part of it is due to lack of options if you want the effect.  Just a thought if you're wanting to do this at a family event that's going to involve close proximity.   As an example I found a chinese chemical company that was selling a Smoke Blue in bulk as a dollar off closeout for something like $1.50/kg with a minimum order of 100kg (if you know how much it costs here, yes, that's how much the markup is when you buy 1lb, and it's even worse from specialty clothing dye suppliers).  It might be a good group order if someone wants to use it, I can find the link. 

I tracked down the actual dye as one of the early Sudan Blues which was discontinued for use in more or less every industry decades ago because all the Sudans are toxic and carcinogenic.  As long as you're display-distance, you won't get a heavy enough dose for the most part.   It depends on the dye though.  Some would need to be ingested first.  The sudans are old enough they might have been used as food colorings a long time ago and that's where the issues came from and won't hurt you if you just get a whiff of them. 

Lots of fireworks formulas call for genotoxic stuff like Rhodamine B though.  http://www.pburch.net/  did her doctoral thesis partly on just this dye and all of the evil things it does to DNA after it marches straight through skin and cell walls.  Oddly that one is a basic dye, not a solvent like many, but I'm guessing people just  kept trying dyes until they found working ones since so many will break down at too low of temps.

[dave321]

On 10/4/2024 at 5:50 AM, Soloserly said:

If you can find it that would be awesome.  I got a copy of Joseph Domanico's presentation from PGI2000 (which is fascinating) and it gives the various general factors for increasing the speed of smoke generation, but isn't specific enough to know how to actually do it.

hi, any chance you could post joseph's presentation it sounds like an interesting read (pm if necessary)

[Soloserly]

On 10/11/2024 at 10:16 AM, dave321 said:

hi, any chance you could post joseph's presentation it sounds like an interesting read (pm if necessary)

dave322 I sent you a pm.  I believe they still sell the video of his presentation, which is also great.  

[Soloserly]

On 10/11/2024 at 6:58 AM, PyroGnome said:

Keep in mind that the solvent dyes used for pyro (in every case that I've Just a thought if you're wanting to do this at a family event... As long as you're display-distance, you won't get a heavy enough dose for the most part...

Yes when I watch videos of these being used at weddings I think every time that a gust if wind in the wrong direction would make this effect the perfect way to ruin a wedding!  That being said, it's pretty spectacular when it goes right.