Binded bp vs no binder and alc or water

[Indypyro317]

I had trouble finding a thread discussing people’s opinions on what type of black powder process makes the best lift and burst powder I will be making some this week and have been looking at doing a 75/15/10 and using alcohol or water more leaning towards doing alc as a binder for granulating or if using a binder like dextrin or sgrs would produce a powder better suited for lifting and bursting shells some say the dextrin can affect power but I’ve read other people find no difference when using 1-3% dextrin looking to make lift and burst for ball and cylinder shells

[Zumber]

Ball milled bp is good for lifting shells, type of charcoal and purity of other ingredients decide further performance. Depending on size of shell size of granules changes....for small shells needs small grain size

Binder percentage affects burn rate and for granulating bp 2 percent is optimum.

For burst charges specially for cylindrical shell coarser bp graines works and for round shell you may need carrier like rice hulls/husk/cottonseed etc. Here too use no more than 2 to 3 percent binder.

Dextrin and sgrs are water activated binders....if you are using alcohol just use 25 percent and 75 percent water....water is mandatory for activating binder.....

[All10Fingers]

My opinion on the best process is that corning is the way to go. It makes hard solid grains that won't crumble when being loaded. Requires no binder. It's great for lift and bursting smaller shells. 

[AustralianPyromaniac]

Some testing done by Ned Gorski on FW indicates the absolutely BEST powder is made with alcohol alone and no binder. The remaining resin in the charcoal acts as a binder. But this is highly dependent on what charcoal you use - some have little to no resin. The charcoal I use made of newspaper has no resin at all and bound with alcohol alone the grains crumble with the smallest amount of pressure, so I use 1% dextrin and water. 

Using alcohol as a binder does improve the quality of the powder, all other factors being the same, but it is so much more expensive than water. 

As I understand it, any given charcoal has some maximum level of power that can be extracted from it. If 12h of milling and dextrin water binding will make this "perfect powder" then maybe 8h of milling and redgum alcohol will do the same, or 6h of milling and alcohol alone etc etc. There is a ceiling of what can be achieved, but there is multiple paths to get there. The goal is not really to achieve the most powerful powder on earth, just good enough. In the end, a powder with no binder will perform the best of all three options, but only marginally, if all other factors are controlled correctly. 

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To the second point, the hardness of the grains is of course why binder is added. In industrial applications where the shells will be shipped across the ocean and handled roughly for months, more binder is needed to ensure the grains do not break. I am not sure why 5% binder is often recommended, I think this is too much even for industrial applications. In our shells, 1-2% is enough. The impact on speed is negligible. 

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SGRS was used in Japan because that is what they had access too. Dextrin was used more in the west. In the modern day, both are available, but dextrin is easier to work with so it's often preferred, except where SGRS is specifically called for, like in a star comp where the fuel value will be tuned for SGRS. 

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One other point is that when making BP, if water is used, the powder must be dried as quickly as possible to prevent the recrystallisation of large KNO3 grains which slows the powder considerably. In cold damp weather, this is sometimes not possible, and BP cannot be made on these days. When using alcohol, no KNO3 dissolves and drying rate is not as important, also alcohol is more volatile, so drying in bad weather becomes possible. 

[DavidF]

I disagree with Ned's method of using straight alcohol to granulate BP. The grains that result are soft and crumble too easily to have any practical use other than for loading rockets. I did lots of tests to challenge Ned's promotion of this method, because I failed to make anything but dusty, crumbly grains with it, every time. Threads titled 'Alcohol Granulation Theory' and 'More Alcohol Granulation Theory' detail the methods used to show what's what. Another pyro came along and claimed it was the resins in the ERC charcoal that effected the binding. I don't believe that either. It's not important to believe or disbelieve that alcohol makes the 'best' powder. It's easy to try with a small batch. Take any kind of BP made with any charcoal and granulate a small amount with straight alcohol of any type. Then see if the grains are hard enough to be practical to use in fireworks that will have to endure any kind of handling. My prediction is that the grains will crumble back to dust between a finger and thumb. Pyros have discovered that water is an important factor in the binding of BP, and have started adding water (up to 50% ) to their alcohol, and gotten hard grains. It's the water that's doing the binding- in my unpopular opinion

If the water used in BP is used in small amounts to make pucks, crystallization is not an issue. Variation from batch to batch is not an issue. But making BP by pucking and corning is a lot of work. 

I mean no offense to any person. Facts are facts. The practicality of using straight alcohol is easily tested with minimal effort.

The 5% binder is used when pasting the BP onto wet rice hulls, and for that purpose does pretty well. 

It's amazing that BP is still a contentious issue sometimes, but it is the most important product we use in pyro. I personally find the role of water in pyro to be a very fascinating aspect of it that doesn't always get as much attention as it might deserve. They don't call it the universal solvent for no reason.

 

[Arthur]

The Royal Gunpowder Mill used water as an aid in the pressing. They had a HUGE water powered hydraulic press.

For an amateur user dry milling for long enough is a start, then pressing into small pucks according to the press available. If the mill dust looks dark grey then mill it more. BP is BLACK and needs milling 'til it's fully black. 

[AustralianPyromaniac]

4 hours ago, DavidF said:

I disagree with Ned's method of using straight alcohol to granulate BP. The grains that result are soft and crumble too easily to have any practical use other than for loading rockets. I did lots of tests to challenge Ned's promotion of this method, because I failed to make anything but dusty, crumbly grains with it, every time. Threads titled 'Alcohol Granulation Theory' and 'More Alcohol Granulation Theory' detail the methods used to show what's what. Another pyro came along and claimed it was the resins in the ERC charcoal that effected the binding. I don't believe that either. It's not important to believe or disbelieve that alcohol makes the 'best' powder. It's easy to try with a small batch. Take any kind of BP made with any charcoal and granulate a small amount with straight alcohol of any type. Then see if the grains are hard enough to be practical to use in fireworks that will have to endure any kind of handling. My prediction is that the grains will crumble back to dust between a finger and thumb. Pyros have discovered that water is an important factor in the binding of BP, and have started adding water (up to 50% ) to their alcohol, and gotten hard grains. It's the water that's doing the binding- in my unpopular opinion

If the water used in BP is used in small amounts to make pucks, crystallization is not an issue. Variation from batch to batch is not an issue. But making BP by pucking and corning is a lot of work. 

I mean no offense to any person. Facts are facts. The practicality of using straight alcohol is easily tested with minimal effort.

The 5% binder is used when pasting the BP onto wet rice hulls, and for that purpose does pretty well. 

It's amazing that BP is still a contentious issue sometimes, but it is the most important product we use in pyro. I personally find the role of water in pyro to be a very fascinating aspect of it that doesn't always get as much attention as it might deserve. They don't call it the universal solvent for no reason.

Very interesting, I was not aware of this! Thanks for sharing. 

I have tried the alcohol-only method with real wood (pine) charcoal and found the grains to be of more than acceptable strength - I could not break them by hand. I suppose pine has a lot of resin, and maybe lots of it was left behind in the batch I made as well. This was screen granulated powder not corned. So if one data point is a trend, I can volunteer my one data point. 

I have also made redgum black powder, using the skylighter method. All components are blade milled to -100 mesh, then just screen mixed with redgum + alcohol binder. The results are quite good. I have always though that the key part of this preparation was the binding method. The same technique would not work with water and 1% dextrin. Are you saying this would work with dextrin also? 

[Zumber]

Just pressing & corning with little water or just using 2 percent water soluble binder (sgrs,dextrin) and granulating is still widely used everywhere in the world by big factories and amateurs.

Alcohol is costly than just using free of cost water. That doesnt make a huge difference in performance of bp.

Ball milled and then pressed and then corned bp need less amount of lift secondly ball milled bp then granulated using little binder take a bit more lift that corned and so on....its everyones own choice and time required for each of above method varies a lot.

Edited July 19 by Zumber

[Indypyro317]

On 7/18/2024 at 3:32 PM, DavidF said:

I disagree with Ned's method of using straight alcohol to granulate BP. The grains that result are soft and crumble too easily to have any practical use other than for loading rockets. I did lots of tests to challenge Ned's promotion of this method, because I failed to make anything but dusty, crumbly grains with it, every time. Threads titled 'Alcohol Granulation Theory' and 'More Alcohol Granulation Theory' detail the methods used to show what's what. Another pyro came along and claimed it was the resins in the ERC charcoal that effected the binding. I don't believe that either. It's not important to believe or disbelieve that alcohol makes the 'best' powder. It's easy to try with a small batch. Take any kind of BP made with any charcoal and granulate a small amount with straight alcohol of any type. Then see if the grains are hard enough to be practical to use in fireworks that will have to endure any kind of handling. My prediction is that the grains will crumble back to dust between a finger and thumb. Pyros have discovered that water is an important factor in the binding of BP, and have started adding water (up to 50% ) to their alcohol, and gotten hard grains. It's the water that's doing the binding- in my unpopular opinion

If the water used in BP is used in small amounts to make pucks, crystallization is not an issue. Variation from batch to batch is not an issue. But making BP by pucking and corning is a lot of work. 

I mean no offense to any person. Facts are facts. The practicality of using straight alcohol is easily tested with minimal effort.

The 5% binder is used when pasting the BP onto wet rice hulls, and for that purpose does pretty well. 

It's amazing that BP is still a contentious issue sometimes, but it is the most important product we use in pyro. I personally find the role of water in pyro to be a very fascinating aspect of it that doesn't always get as much attention as it might deserve. They don't call it the universal solvent for no reason.

 

This is very interesting to me I may have to test this and make a batch with alc and meal then one with meal dextrin and water/alc I’ve seen two or 3 people who make shells at home suggest this no binder powder on yt such as Ned Bangkok pyro in his granulating video and Tar Heelpyro I think further testing needs to be done to see the differences

[Indypyro317]

On 7/18/2024 at 11:45 PM, Zumber said:

Just pressing & corning with little water or just using 2 percent water soluble binder (sgrs,dextrin) and granulating is still widely used everywhere in the world by big factories and amateurs.

Alcohol is costly than just using free of cost water. That doesnt make a huge difference in performance of bp.

Ball milled and then pressed and then corned bp need less amount of lift secondly ball milled bp then granulated using little binder take a bit more lift that corned and so on....its everyones own choice and time required for each of above method varies a lot.

I’m interested in Corning but don’t own a press I think I’ll dry both the alc and meal only and also make a batch using 2% dextrin and compare them

[Indypyro317]

On 7/18/2024 at 8:39 PM, AustralianPyromaniac said:

Very interesting, I was not aware of this! Thanks for sharing. 

I have tried the alcohol-only method with real wood (pine) charcoal and found the grains to be of more than acceptable strength - I could not break them by hand. I suppose pine has a lot of resin, and maybe lots of it was left behind in the batch I made as well. This was screen granulated powder not corned. So if one data point is a trend, I can volunteer my one data point. 

I have also made redgum black powder, using the skylighter method. All components are blade milled to -100 mesh, then just screen mixed with redgum + alcohol binder. The results are quite good. I have always though that the key part of this preparation was the binding method. The same technique would not work with water and 1% dextrin. Are you saying this would work with dextrin also? 

Has anyone made a chart of when to use what charcoals or what certain charcoals are best for 

[Zumber]

6 minutes ago, Indypyro317 said:

I’m interested in Corning but don’t own a press I think I’ll dry both the alc and meal only and also make a batch using 2% dextrin and compare them

If you dont have a press you can use carpenters vice as a press.

or just take cylindrical shape plastic pipe or syringe and wooden dowel and add slightly damped bp ( dont damp too much ) in it and ram it and form pumped /pressed star and dry it then crush it and pass through desired screen.

[Zumber]

9 minutes ago, Indypyro317 said:

Has anyone made a chart of when to use what charcoals or what certain charcoals are best for 

Generally hardwood is preferred for long lasting spark for charcoal stars like pine.

And softwood charcoal for making lift powder.

[Indypyro317]

23 hours ago, Zumber said:

Generally hardwood is preferred for long lasting spark for charcoal stars like pine.

And softwood charcoal for making lift powder.

I made my first bp I’ve been fallowing 75/15/10 using red cedar I mill 2 hours in a unmodified rock tumbler and it comes out fine and it burns decent as milled powder I’m making black match rn but am running into issue drying it humidity has been in the 60s or 70s I’m hoping my match issue ruined it dryed pretty good but but was soft and slightly moist after the moring dew so I moved it into my garage hope fully it drys and works well

[Zumber]

45 minutes ago, Indypyro317 said:

I made my first bp I’ve been fallowing 75/15/10 using red cedar I mill 2 hours in a unmodified rock tumbler and it comes out fine and it burns decent as milled powder I’m making black match rn but am running into issue drying it humidity has been in the 60s or 70s I’m hoping my match issue ruined it dryed pretty good but but was soft and slightly moist after the moring dew so I moved it into my garage hope fully it drys and works well

Humidity sometimes causes match not to burn fastly and causes powder to fall off and misfires.

Once your match is fully dried insert it in kraft paper tube and wrap it in plastic bag secured with string and keep bunch in pvc pipe and close both ends with plastic lids or waterproof tape.

If it is not dried dry it again.

[Indypyro317]

1 hour ago, Zumber said:

Humidity sometimes causes match not to burn fastly and causes powder to fall off and misfires.

Once your match is fully dried insert it in kraft paper tube and wrap it in plastic bag secured with string and keep bunch in pvc pipe and close both ends with plastic lids or waterproof tape.

If it is not dried dry it again.

Thanks for you help and sorry for all the questions but do you know if I could screen mix my bp mill will dextrin to add it or must I mill it I mad a lb or so of Bp with no binder 

[Zumber]

9 hours ago, Indypyro317 said:

Thanks for you help and sorry for all the questions but do you know if I could screen mix my bp mill will dextrin to add it or must I mill it I mad a lb or so of Bp with no binder 

Sorry I dont understand question.

But I assume you mean to say Mill BP with binder or without binder?

You have to mill BP without binder and add binder later.

Another thing is that match made with dextrin is not so stiff thats the reason why gum arabic is used as a binder for match.

But It absorbs moisture in high humidity area so just stick to dextrin if weather is problem in your area.

[Indypyro317]

14 hours ago, Zumber said:

Sorry I dont understand question.

But I assume you mean to say Mill BP with binder or without binder?

You have to mill BP without binder and add binder later.

Another thing is that match made with dextrin is not so stiff thats the reason why gum arabic is used as a binder for match.

But It absorbs moisture in high humidity area so just stick to dextrin if weather is problem in your area.

I was saying I have mill dust with no binder in it and wanted to know if I could add the binder by sifting it or needed to mill it again I ended up making a half lb of no binder bp with denatured alcohol it’s not fully dry but still the granuals are pretty strong I made match with dextrin and I think I may need to dry more or I need to adjust my mix the match burns with out stoping but leaves a core of string left and when I try to light this left over string i have to get it a little hot then it’ll form droplets and burn again like it should I expected too much kno3 or improper drying 

[Zumber]

You can add binder by shifting it through screen if it is ball milled.

If it is just unmilled before then first ball mill it then add binder later on.

Take black match and bend it or squeeze it between fingers and test it if it is dried completely, else dry out again more.

I assume match it dried outside only and not from inside.

Remember for match you have to use cotton string or jute and it is damped/soaked in KNO3 solution overnight before use or it shoud be soaked in water and squeezed before it passes through bp slurry.

Again I dont prefer dextrin for black match I love Gum Arabic.

Note- gum arabic is not added in powder form by screening it with BP.

It is added in hot water and dissolved and that water is used for bp slurry. Gum arabic solution sets at bottom instantly so you have to mix/blend slurry every 2 to 3 minutes.

Edited July 23 by Zumber

[kingkama]

On 7/22/2024 at 8:01 PM, Indypyro317 said:

I was saying I have mill dust with no binder in it and wanted to know if I could add the binder by sifting it or needed to mill it again I ended up making a half lb of no binder bp with denatured alcohol it’s not fully dry but still the granuals are pretty strong I made match with dextrin and I think I may need to dry more or I need to adjust my mix the match burns with out stoping but leaves a core of string left and when I try to light this left over string i have to get it a little hot then it’ll form droplets and burn again like it should I expected too much kno3 or improper drying 

If you mill the binder can use less of It, 1.5 or 1 can work, if sift much are needed, i look at the other posts and agree on the useless of alcool granulated BP that Is surely faster but is soft and hard to classify. 

I use this sistem 4 hour milling with lead media (5 kg lead) for 700 grams of bp 1.5% dextrin added at the start of milling, when ready a 18-20% water usually made a strong granule and a fast bp, not. So fast i use of that the 15% of Shell weigt.

[Indypyro317]

22 hours ago, kingkama said:

If you mill the binder can use less of It, 1.5 or 1 can work, if sift much are needed, i look at the other posts and agree on the useless of alcool granulated BP that Is surely faster but is soft and hard to classify. 

I use this sistem 4 hour milling with lead media (5 kg lead) for 700 grams of bp 1.5% dextrin added at the start of milling, when ready a 18-20% water usually made a strong granule and a fast bp, not. So fast i use of that the 15% of Shell weigt.

I ended up making the alcohol only and it turned out good it’s grains are strong enough for my needs of as a burst and lift charge only issue I ran into was when screen granulating I got quite a few larger chunks it’s was probably from the way I pressed it on the screen

[cmjlab]

Once again, I hate to restart a thread that's been quiet a while and where the OP found an acceptable method to his original question......

I use Ned's no binder for B.P. method.  I think it's important to point out a couple factors since I rarely disagree with David F's input on B.P. 

The B.P. Ned was referring to was made with Red Cedar charcoal (bought at Walmart / Home Depot / etc as pet bedding) then made into charcoal the TLUD method.  I don't know if that plays into the factors or not, but that's what he and a bunch of others have been using since it's cheap, fast, and repeatable.

The B.P. is then made and wetted with 50% Isopropyl Alcohol (IPA) as the solvent.  The 100% alcohol was the old method, which some people got decently hard grains, but most got softer grains.  The 50:50 IPA is cheap at the store, or one could add water to denatured alcohol to make a 50:50 ratio.  Them the B.P. is granulated through a screen and dried in the most expedient method possible to avoid leeching and/or crystallization of the nitrate and making the b.p. weaker.

The grains I've made with the above method are rock hard and can't be broken by hand at all, and are quite hard to reduce in size even with a rolling pin and me pressing g with all my weight (220lbs of it).

I thought it was important to point out the updated method and variables (red cedar charcoal, tlud method, and 50:50 alcohol to water) which may actually further David F.'s water theory above.

Sorry for the rambling post! -Charles

[Mumbles]

One thing with the alcohol granulation method that I never really found a satisfactory answer to was what exactly they were using.  The stuff I've read about this tended to be a little loose with their language.  I admittedly haven't kept up on it or search out information recently.  My impression when they said they were using "straight" alcohol was that they were actually using it straight from the bottle, but very likely it could have been 91% or 68% Isopropanol that is commonly available.  I believe that when some others tried to repeat this using actual 99% or better IPA or ethanol, they encountered problems.  My opinion has always been that it's the water present in the alcohol that is the functional component, and never gave a ton of backing to the resin rationale.   

[cmjlab]

Tldr: either one works for me at 50:50 denatured or IPA to water.  It produces rock hard grains that can only be broken down a little bit once dried completely, short of taking a hammer to them.

Long Version:  When the method first came out, Ned, Wiley and a couple others tried both straight 100% denatured alcohol and ~96% IPA, but there was a lot of varying results and confusion as to whether it produced decent grains.  (Now, 100% ethanol (or else to it) is mainly used to purposely make soft grains for rocket propelling, but not lift powder.)

Overtime, Wiley I believe is credited with dropping down to eventually ~50% IPA made by adding extra water to higher percentage IPA or just buying the 50% IPA (which is what I do).

Edited August 15 by cmjlab
Added a shorter more concise response.

[SharkWhisperer]

I use 2% dextrin for lift/burst, none for rocket fuel, 3-5% in blackmatch). I usually use typical 70% IPA for granulating both lift/burst and rocket fuel (rarely press/corn). I also switched to 50% IPA for making blackmatch, but just to speed drying in my humid locale. The IPA dries quickly (I'm lazy) though the water plays an important role in activating dextrin, if present. When using >25% alcohol, it's probably a good idea to let the moistened comp 'rest' a bit, to be certain that the dextrin/water have time to intermingle and activate the dextrin. When making BP, I leave the moistened dough ball in the gallon baggie or 5-gal bucket I used to mix it for generally at least an hour (lunchtime), sometimes much longer (overnight if busy) before granulating/drying/sieve sorting. This assures the dextrin will become fully activated and yield maximum strength benefit. Think about adding cornstarch to stew you're cooking--it takes time, even at high temps, to begin thickening. My 2% dex BP granulate is rock-tough. I only recently started adding IPA to BP for blackmatch for faster drying, and see no negative except solvent cost. Not really a concern at the hobbyist level.

Was just reading an interesting report about Fe2O3 (5% molar) reducing the KNO3 decomposition temperature by around 10-15%. Like many rocket fuels, it has me thinking to search back and see if anybody's used it as a catalyst in BP as is common in sugar fuels. Is this something anybody's tested before? We know S lowers ignition temps, but curious whether a little rust might additionally enhance BP ignitability (or burn rate).