Pyrophoric30 Posted July 17 Posted July 17 Hello pyros. Can you suggest a good metallic red star with the chemicals i have. I made buell red star and it doest produce red flames. Fellow pyro stated that it is due to aluminum and not using parlon and red gum. I have acquired magnalium now but it still has the same color not a single hint of red in the flame. Posted below was the chemicals used. kclo4 -34 srco3 -25 phenolic resin -7 magnalium 150mesh -14 pvc -13 dextrin-5 What seems to be the problem? Should be parlon and red gum as per the original composition? Idk shimuzu red star works just fine with the same chemicals excluding magnalium. Im just finding another composition that produce brilliant red without using nitrates.
Crazy Swede Posted July 17 Posted July 17 Are you sure about the quality of your strontium carbonate? Could it be strontium oxalate? Does the mixture burn well, even though the colour is not there? What flame colour do you get? How does the slag look like?
Pyrophoric30 Posted July 18 Author Posted July 18 Well i dont know how to judge my chemicals but one thing is for sure. It works in organic red. I will attach below the video of my shimizu red using the same chemicals. IMG_4988.mov
AustralianPyromaniac Posted July 18 Posted July 18 That formula is a bit different to normal comp because of the enormous amount of carbonate. The flame temp must be high enough to begin decomposing the carbonate, which then acts as a secondary oxidizer and produces the colour-producing SrCl species. If no red is being produced, you are likely just burning with the KClO4. If this is the case, a large amount of slag should be left behind and the smoke may be black resulting from unburned carbon. I am not sure what magnalium mesh is required as standard, but I think 150 may be too coarse. See if you can get something finer. Aluminium alone may work if it is fine enough, but clearly did not work for you. Also, do you have more info on the particle size? Is it -something retained on 150? Or -150 retained on something else? Or just -150? I don't think the parlon and phenolic substitutions would have much of a difference. Certainly not to the extent you're seeing.
Pyrophoric30 Posted July 18 Author Posted July 18 2 hours ago, AustralianPyromaniac said: That formula is a bit different to normal comp because of the enormous amount of carbonate. The flame temp must be high enough to begin decomposing the carbonate, which then acts as a secondary oxidizer and produces the colour-producing SrCl species. If no red is being produced, you are likely just burning with the KClO4. If this is the case, a large amount of slag should be left behind and the smoke may be black resulting from unburned carbon. I am not sure what magnalium mesh is required as standard, but I think 150 may be too coarse. See if you can get something finer. Aluminium alone may work if it is fine enough, but clearly did not work for you. Also, do you have more info on the particle size? Is it -something retained on 150? Or -150 retained on something else? Or just -150? I don't think the parlon and phenolic substitutions would have much of a difference. Certainly not to the extent you're seeing. Well it confuses me a lot because my shimizu red uses phenolic resin and pvc resin even though it is only 2%. In terms of magnalium, i also use the same 150mesh in my green star that produces a brilliant color but it is nitrate based. Could it be the pvc resin or the magnalium becasue shimizu red is oragnic fuel heavy and phenolic resin works just fine. Strontium nitrate cost 10x as much as the barium nitrate so it is not an option😢 the hunt for brilliant carbonate red continues,
AustralianPyromaniac Posted July 18 Posted July 18 I think you may have misunderstood my post. If you want the short answer - use a finer magnalium and try again. Are you US-based? Why are you using that particular 150 mesh product. The organic Shimizu red on page 215 has less than half the carbonate as Buell red. The MAX for carbonate in a normal comp is 15%, if more than this is used, it must act as an oxidizer or very high-temperature fuel must be used to make up for the lack of heat. Your magnalium may just not be fine enough to facilitate the reduction of carbonate. The use of a large excess of fuel improves the colour in that particular case, but decreases the brilliance due to a reduction in flame envelope. Why not use the Shimizu red star? Did you not like the colour? You could modify it.
Pyrophoric30 Posted July 18 Author Posted July 18 (edited) Oh yeah, the reason why i use 150 mesh magnalium is that it is the only size available here. In my other post i use dark aluminum powder which is more than 325 mesh and it was the same. Some commenter stated that the aluminum was too hot for the application. Right now i only use Shimizu red star. As you can see in the video i posted, it has an orange hue to it (maybe because of tiger tail). I want a brilliant red. If you can suggest a good carbonate red that i can try that would be nice. Ive seen couple of videos in youtube where buell red has a comparable brilliance to nitrate based red. thanks! ps. Im from the Philippines Edited July 18 by Pyrophoric30
dangerousamateur Posted July 18 Posted July 18 I find carbonate reds suck, but if you cannot get nitrate or it is too damp where you live... One more hint: where your stars dried properly? Outside and inside?
AustralianPyromaniac Posted July 18 Posted July 18 That Shimizu formula mainly relies on the SrOH emission, which is why it is orange - not pure red. It lacks chlorine. Changing it to chlorate would improve the colour. Or increasing the content of chlorine donor. I have never seen this formula before, but having so little chlorine donor is unusual. On the next page, a green is given with 4.7 parts parlon, which will liberate almost 3x more chlorine! Shimizu expresses the view that chlorine donor content should be kept between 2% and 3% for organic compositions to ensure flame temperature is as high as possible, fewer emitting species are created, but they are emitting more strongly. In the modern day, I think we have pretty confidently figured out he was wrong about that - so long as enough oxidiser is present to turn the chlorine donor into a fuel, it is better to have more chlorine and a slightly cooler flame temp. Aluminium thermodynamically burns hotter than magnesium but is less reactive, so flame temperature is lower and it may be necessary to accelerate the burn rate with charcoal or sulphur. Just generally, it is not recommended to make that substitution. But I do think you'd find it was possible. If I was you I would still aim to stick with your magnalium. Maybe try the Shimizu red - increasing the PVC content up to 6% and reducing redgum to 9%. Or someone may also be able to provide you a better formula that someone has tested already. 1
Pyrophoric30 Posted July 18 Author Posted July 18 1 hour ago, dangerousamateur said: I find carbonate reds suck, but if you cannot get nitrate or it is too damp where you live... One more hint: where your stars dried properly? Outside and inside? It’s just too expensive. I have no problem in green because i use nitrate. Only the red. i tried igniting it in powder and star form.
DavidF Posted July 18 Posted July 18 Just a suggestion that might be of some value: I used PVC in purple stars and in blue stars. They did not burn purple or blue. The only time I ever failed to get any color was when I used PVC, those 2 times.
Arthur Posted July 18 Posted July 18 Regarding PVC. Is your PVC pure? Industrial raw material PVC can be pure, but may not be. Recycled PVC from drain pipe etc is probably 30 - 40% pvc and the rest can be inert or even flame retardant. OLD PVC pipe had lots of filler among which was Lead and carbonates both of which would interfere with a firework flame with a colouring agent.
AustralianPyromaniac Posted July 19 Posted July 19 4 hours ago, DavidF said: Just a suggestion that might be of some value: I used PVC in purple stars and in blue stars. They did not burn purple or blue. The only time I ever failed to get any color was when I used PVC, those 2 times. I have had good luck with PVC and chlorate colours, including blues. Never tried with perchlorates. It does have less chlorine than other chlorine donors, so definitely could be a contributing factor. But no red at all? I think it is not getting hot enough.
DavidF Posted July 19 Posted July 19 Sorry, I should have clarified that I think there was something wrong with my PVC. I think it came from China, and maybe the OPs did too. My blue was a chlorate blue and the comet heads I made with it burned pure white. The purple was Bleser #6 and burned whitish. I'm sure the formulas are good, I just got some bad PVC.
Pyrophoric30 Posted July 19 Author Posted July 19 11 minutes ago, DavidF said: Sorry, I should have clarified that I think there was something wrong with my PVC. I think it came from China, and maybe the OPs did too. My blue was a chlorate blue and the comet heads I made with it burned pure white. The purple was Bleser #6 and burned whitish. I'm sure the formulas are good, I just got some bad PVC. I have my pvc came from china also, it is called PVC Resin with a tag SG-3 and here is data. it doesnt have any problems with my nitrate green with 150mesh mg/al and this pvc. It produces the brightest and deepest green ive ever seen for newbies. I still couldnt figure out the problem with this carbonate red. Maybe it will also not work in blues and violet. 🥲
Zumber Posted July 19 Posted July 19 On 7/17/2024 at 2:35 PM, Pyrophoric30 said: Hello pyros. Can you suggest a good metallic red star with the chemicals i have. I made buell red star and it doest produce red flames. Fellow pyro stated that it is due to aluminum and not using parlon and red gum. I have acquired magnalium now but it still has the same color not a single hint of red in the flame. Posted below was the chemicals used. kclo4 -34 srco3 -25 phenolic resin -7 magnalium 150mesh -14 pvc -13 dextrin-5 What seems to be the problem? Should be parlon and red gum as per the original composition? Idk shimuzu red star works just fine with the same chemicals excluding magnalium. Im just finding another composition that produce brilliant red without using nitrates. If you still not satisfied you may need to try again. You may try to use combination of parlon and pvc together to see if you are having poor quality pvc. Also you may need to think of phenolic resin grade is it fireworks grade? Organic fuels like shellac or red gum by 5 percent to 8 percent improves colour a lot. You may also stick to magnelium insted of aluminium. Increase magnelium upto 25 and reduce strontium carbonate to 15 to 18 percent and try to use parlon 7 percent and pvc 7 percent and 7 percent phenolic resin In another batch as I just stated just remove phenolic resin with red gum or shellac.
Pyrophoric30 Posted July 19 Author Posted July 19 1 hour ago, Zumber said: If you still not satisfied you may need to try again. You may try to use combination of parlon and pvc together to see if you are having poor quality pvc. Also you may need to think of phenolic resin grade is it fireworks grade? Organic fuels like shellac or red gum by 5 percent to 8 percent improves colour a lot. You may also stick to magnelium insted of aluminium. Increase magnelium upto 25 and reduce strontium carbonate to 15 to 18 percent and try to use parlon 7 percent and pvc 7 percent and 7 percent phenolic resin In another batch as I just stated just remove phenolic resin with red gum or shellac. Well the reason for pvc is again, the availability of parlon here. I can get chlorinated rubber but i dont think its the same with parlon and also the price is 3x to that of pvc. This hobby aint cheap and literally burning money to the sky so im trying to cut down the cost. as for the phenolic resin, i think it is good because it is the fuel i use in my shimizu red and works just fine. I already got my magnalium but its only 150mesh. Buell red comp calls for 200 mesh Thank you very much zumber!
AustralianPyromaniac Posted July 19 Posted July 19 (edited) I do not think your PVC has any issues. I am struggling to understand what the particle size is though, it seems to say it is -3+250 mesh. With 98% passing 3 mesh and 90% retained on 250 mesh?? This is a very strange grading system. I have used industrial PVC resin before, there are two grades, suspension, and emulsion, the suspension is much finer. Is your PVC powder like sugar or flour? Edited July 19 by AustralianPyromaniac
Zumber Posted July 19 Posted July 19 (edited) 31 minutes ago, Pyrophoric30 said: Well the reason for pvc is again, the availability of parlon here. I can get chlorinated rubber but i dont think its the same with parlon and also the price is 3x to that of pvc. This hobby aint cheap and literally burning money to the sky so im trying to cut down the cost. as for the phenolic resin, i think it is good because it is the fuel i use in my shimizu red and works just fine. I already got my magnalium but its only 150mesh. Buell red comp calls for 200 mesh Thank you very much zumber! Chlorinated rubber is parlon. Yes this is costly hobby but if you consider cost of perchlorate it would be fine to use strontium nitrate based red without using potassium perchlorate. Edited July 19 by Zumber
Pyrophoric30 Posted July 19 Author Posted July 19 25 minutes ago, AustralianPyromaniac said: I do not think your PVC has any issues. I am struggling to understand what the particle size is though, it seems to say it is -3+250 mesh. With 98% passing 3 mesh and 90% retained on 250 mesh?? This is a very strange grading system. I have used industrial PVC resin before, there are two grades, suspension, and emulsion, the suspension is much finer. Is your PVC powder like sugar or flour? I have mine like sugar. Its pretty free flowing.
AustralianPyromaniac Posted July 19 Posted July 19 That is the emulsion grade PVC, it does work but not as well as the fine stuff. Can lead to vibrational (strobe) burning stars. But if it works for you I am sure no issues. Very difficult to ball mill, but if the powder is cold (ideally below freezing) it mills much faster.
Pyrophoric30 Posted July 19 Author Posted July 19 20 minutes ago, AustralianPyromaniac said: That is the emulsion grade PVC, it does work but not as well as the fine stuff. Can lead to vibrational (strobe) burning stars. But if it works for you I am sure no issues. Very difficult to ball mill, but if the powder is cold (ideally below freezing) it mills much faster. Well theres one thing in my mind that says it is the problem. Do i have to mill both oxidizer and fuel? Because what im doing is just mixing it together thru a 60mesh screen.
AustralianPyromaniac Posted July 19 Posted July 19 How fine are your chemicals? Ideally, mill your oxidiser/s in one jar, then mill together all the other components in another jar, then screen mix. If you have any metals in your comp, don't mill these, just screen them in. If you have perfectly free flowing, cake free chemicals to start with, then screen mixing alone is enough, but often chemicals are clumped together. Without an anticaking agent, almost everything quickly clumps. In reality, it often makes not much difference if the correct technique is used. But in some comps, where they are already a bit exotic, such as the Buell red, it makes a lot of difference. Trying to turn that carbonate into an oxidiser is not easy. Some chemicals take forever to mill, shellac, PVC, and parlon, amongst some others. All of these are polymers, with a lot of bounce in them. The media cannot crush them effectively. These all mill better at cold temps, but it still takes 24h+ at least. You should try to buy these already -200 mesh, or mill them for a few days first before using them. Stainless steel and glass are more effective than lead for these milling applications as lead wears down considerably. You seem to have already achieved some good colour with the techniques you are using, so I think all this is probably overkill. The issue is just the formula is not working with your 150 mesh MgAl. I think you've gotten some good advice on how to improve the Shimizu red to match your tastes
Pyrophoric30 Posted August 20 Author Posted August 20 (edited) Hello pyros thanks for all the input. I already found out the problem with my carbonate red. It was my Srco3 which turns out to be bad carbonate or i suspected it to be caco3. I bought a new srco3 from a reputable source and this is what happens. Still has some hint of orange but much redder than shimizu red IMG_5950.mov Edited August 20 by Pyrophoric30
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