Norsepyro Posted June 30 Posted June 30 Having been fascinated by glitter stars ever since I started with pyro around 20 years ago, I have tried quite a lot of different formulas during the years. These are mostly Winokur types and variations, using atomized aluminium. I never had much success with MgAl glitters to be honest, although I think many nice effects can be made with the right sized material and formula. The gold tone from MgAl glitters is in my experience deeper(more orange) than from atomized, but the tail is more sparse with fewer and larger flashes. (Winokur 14 and 20) The "Pirotex glitter" using sodium nitrate/MgAl is in a different category, where the glittering comes from a delayed reaction with coarse MgAl. A charcoal streamer(chrysanthemum 6 / 8 , TT) using KNO3 can also give a delayed glittering look when coarse MgAl is added, but the flashes are more branching and the color is white. Both are nice effects but I really prefer the "coppery" gold glitter from pirotex's formula! The downside is of course that you have to deal with the hygroscopic nature of sodium nitrate. Which leads to another interesting and similar effect I see the manufacturers call "pixie dust" or "Corolla" : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JzGlY9ZwiWI&ab_channel=PyroSonic https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aiYlo3p0WkU&ab_channel=unixoracle https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rA-OKg9YXyo&ab_channel=LambentPyro This effect looks like a charcoal star with metal granules added, but I have never seen such sharp flashes when using ordinary granular Ti og MgAl. I found a thread in a russian forum which linked to a chinese patent for this effect: https://patents.google.com/patent/CN100445241C/en A derived formula was posted in the forum: KNO3 12 Charcoal AF pine 32 (homemade pine charcoal is said to be important!) Sulfur 8 SGRS 5 KClO4 25 Titanium (flash-cards) 20 Not everything in the text from the patent makes sense, but it seems like a slurry of titanium powder with binder(sgrs/dextrin) is smeared in a thin layer on a paper and allowed to dry. The paper is then crumbled and the granules are likely sorted/graded and then added to the other star ingredients. I tried the above formula using -100 mesh flake titanium which was granulated as specified, but the star would only give a ordinary titanium effect with drooping sparks and no flashing. This was when using 20-40 mesh and 40-80 mesh granulated (-100mesh Ti) bits. (It is however a great way to utilize such fine Ti powder anyways, since it does not give much of a tail otherwise, except in a willow star) Of course no specific grade of Ti is specified in the patent but someone has mentioned that the metalpowder might be titanium dihydride. I have seen titanium dihydride for sale on the US market, so maybe someone will give this formula a try if they have some of it on hand ?
Zumber Posted June 30 Posted June 30 (edited) 3 hours ago, Norsepyro said: Having been fascinated by glitter stars ever since I started with pyro around 20 years ago, I have tried quite a lot of different formulas during the years. These are mostly Winokur types and variations, using atomized aluminium. I never had much success with MgAl glitters to be honest, although I think many nice effects can be made with the right sized material and formula. The gold tone from MgAl glitters is in my experience deeper(more orange) than from atomized, but the tail is more sparse with fewer and larger flashes. (Winokur 14 and 20) The "Pirotex glitter" using sodium nitrate/MgAl is in a different category, where the glittering comes from a delayed reaction with coarse MgAl. A charcoal streamer(chrysanthemum 6 / 8 , TT) using KNO3 can also give a delayed glittering look when coarse MgAl is added, but the flashes are more branching and the color is white. Both are nice effects but I really prefer the "coppery" gold glitter from pirotex's formula! The downside is of course that you have to deal with the hygroscopic nature of sodium nitrate. Which leads to another interesting and similar effect I see the manufacturers call "pixie dust" or "Corolla" : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JzGlY9ZwiWI&ab_channel=PyroSonic https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aiYlo3p0WkU&ab_channel=unixoracle https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rA-OKg9YXyo&ab_channel=LambentPyro This effect looks like a charcoal star with metal granules added, but I have never seen such sharp flashes when using ordinary granular Ti og MgAl. I found a thread in a russian forum which linked to a chinese patent for this effect: https://patents.google.com/patent/CN100445241C/en A derived formula was posted in the forum: KNO3 12 Charcoal AF pine 32 (homemade pine charcoal is said to be important!) Sulfur 8 SGRS 5 KClO4 25 Titanium (flash-cards) 20 Not everything in the text from the patent makes sense, but it seems like a slurry of titanium powder with binder(sgrs/dextrin) is smeared in a thin layer on a paper and allowed to dry. The paper is then crumbled and the granules are likely sorted/graded and then added to the other star ingredients. I tried the above formula using -100 mesh flake titanium which was granulated as specified, but the star would only give a ordinary titanium effect with drooping sparks and no flashing. This was when using 20-40 mesh and 40-80 mesh granulated (-100mesh Ti) bits. (It is however a great way to utilize such fine Ti powder anyways, since it does not give much of a tail otherwise, except in a willow star) Of course no specific grade of Ti is specified in the patent but someone has mentioned that the metalpowder might be titanium dihydride. I have seen titanium dihydride for sale on the US market, so maybe someone will give this formula a try if they have some of it on hand ? There is high chance that most of formulas from patented literature just dont work. You may try out this I just tested it over ground not in shell mine or fountain....I just made a stars and ignited over ground....it produces molten slag and it is throwed against high wind it flashes with yellow strobe type effect. The formula is also collected from google patent document. KNO3 50 Sulphur 15 Sodium bicarbonate 15 Magnelium 10 Charcoal 10 Sieved with 40 mesh screen and mixed well. Then using NC lacquar stars are formed. Edited June 30 by Zumber 1
Norsepyro Posted July 2 Author Posted July 2 I agree that most formula in the chinese patents are unlikely to work in the proportions they are written, however the ingredients might be correct. Thank you for the glitter formula Zumber, I will give that one a try. Whenever I need a quick pyro-fix, I throw a couple of the pirotex glitters into the air and enjoy the beautiful golden flickering tail. The dark gold tone from the tail of this star is really unmatched! 🙂
Zumber Posted July 3 Posted July 3 We are really working on same star having nice charcoal streamer effect followed by nice golden flickering tail behind. This guy have success but we are still working on it. https://youtube.com/shorts/So4PnyWZK7Y?si=G_x8Jx2jbkU48Bme
sachinagg Posted July 3 Posted July 3 4 hours ago, Zumber said: We are really working on same star having nice charcoal streamer effect followed by nice golden flickering tail behind. This guy have success but we are still working on it. https://youtube.com/shorts/So4PnyWZK7Y?si=G_x8Jx2jbkU48Bme U know this guy? And which state he belong
Zumber Posted July 3 Posted July 3 1 hour ago, sachinagg said: U know this guy? And which state he belong Andrapradesh.
Zumber Posted July 3 Posted July 3 I dont know but I got his contact and I had discussion with him. He clearly told he is not willing to share any information related to fireworks.
sachinagg Posted July 3 Posted July 3 17 minutes ago, Zumber said: I dont know but I got his contact and I had discussion with him. He clearly told he is not willing to share any information related to fireworks. Last month I talk him for his product. For purchase
Edwin Posted July 19 Posted July 19 (edited) On 6/30/2024 at 8:22 AM, Norsepyro said: Having been fascinated by glitter stars ever since I started with pyro around 20 years ago, I have tried quite a lot of different formulas during the years. These are mostly Winokur types and variations, using atomized aluminium. I never had much success with MgAl glitters to be honest, although I think many nice effects can be made with the right sized material and formula. The gold tone from MgAl glitters is in my experience deeper(more orange) than from atomized, but the tail is more sparse with fewer and larger flashes. (Winokur 14 and 20) The "Pirotex glitter" using sodium nitrate/MgAl is in a different category, where the glittering comes from a delayed reaction with coarse MgAl. A charcoal streamer(chrysanthemum 6 / 8 , TT) using KNO3 can also give a delayed glittering look when coarse MgAl is added, but the flashes are more branching and the color is white. Both are nice effects but I really prefer the "coppery" gold glitter from pirotex's formula! The downside is of course that you have to deal with the hygroscopic nature of sodium nitrate. Which leads to another interesting and similar effect I see the manufacturers call "pixie dust" or "Corolla" : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JzGlY9ZwiWI&ab_channel=PyroSonic https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aiYlo3p0WkU&ab_channel=unixoracle https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rA-OKg9YXyo&ab_channel=LambentPyro This effect looks like a charcoal star with metal granules added, but I have never seen such sharp flashes when using ordinary granular Ti og MgAl. I found a thread in a russian forum which linked to a chinese patent for this effect: https://patents.google.com/patent/CN100445241C/en A derived formula was posted in the forum: KNO3 12 Charcoal AF pine 32 (homemade pine charcoal is said to be important!) Sulfur 8 SGRS 5 KClO4 25 Titanium (flash-cards) 20 Not everything in the text from the patent makes sense, but it seems like a slurry of titanium powder with binder(sgrs/dextrin) is smeared in a thin layer on a paper and allowed to dry. The paper is then crumbled and the granules are likely sorted/graded and then added to the other star ingredients. I tried the above formula using -100 mesh flake titanium which was granulated as specified, but the star would only give a ordinary titanium effect with drooping sparks and no flashing. This was when using 20-40 mesh and 40-80 mesh granulated (-100mesh Ti) bits. (It is however a great way to utilize such fine Ti powder anyways, since it does not give much of a tail otherwise, except in a willow star) Of course no specific grade of Ti is specified in the patent but someone has mentioned that the metalpowder might be titanium dihydride. I have seen titanium dihydride for sale on the US market, so maybe someone will give this formula a try if they have some of it on hand ? I believe someone on here has recreated that "pixie dust" effect with c8 and coarse magnalium. Edited July 19 by Edwin
Norsepyro Posted July 21 Author Posted July 21 Yeah I agree that coarse MgAl added to a charcoal star can give a very nice effect, however the color is white and the flashes are not so large/strong in my experience. For a golden flashing effect I belive the chinese use some kind of microstar in a matrix formula. I found this from another chinese patent, but have not tried it: Color changing flash willow (CN101481288) BP – 65-75%, C – 20-35%. --- CuO – 40-60%, AlMg – 25-35%, S -5-10%, Cryolite – 8-15%, Dextrin – 3-5%. --- Granules/Matrix = 3/10
Zumber Posted July 21 Posted July 21 2 hours ago, Norsepyro said: Yeah I agree that coarse MgAl added to a charcoal star can give a very nice effect, however the color is white and the flashes are not so large/strong in my experience. For a golden flashing effect I belive the chinese use some kind of microstar in a matrix formula. I found this from another chinese patent, but have not tried it: Color changing flash willow (CN101481288) BP – 65-75%, C – 20-35%. --- CuO – 40-60%, AlMg – 25-35%, S -5-10%, Cryolite – 8-15%, Dextrin – 3-5%. --- Granules/Matrix = 3/10 Just adding magnelium to bp type composition gives no strobing/flashing effect though it produce decent flashing type effect but it is not intended for bp type formulations....for nice flashing trail behind you may switch to glitter type formulation like winokur glitters. I doubt about chinese patent you have posted. If somehow you are able to produce yellow strobing microstars then you can make matrix stars out of it. Yoh have to consider many things in mind while designing matrix stars. Most of yellow strobe uses sodium oxalate or sodium bicarbonate which is not to be damped with water if there is aluminium powder in it. Also while forming matrix stars yellow microstars may absorbs moisture from bp composition which is damped during formation of stars and may crush microstars. One remedy is chinese patent also has nc based yellow flashing star you can use it for microstars. It strobes nicely I have tested it and it works but not tested above patent formula.
Norsepyro Posted July 21 Author Posted July 21 I managed to get some sort of golden spark effect by using a -20 mesh granulated composition consisting of 14 parts 100-200 mesh MgAl, 10 parts sodium oxalate, 1 part dextrin. 25 parts of this was added to 100 parts chrysanthemum 8. The effect of the star is that the chrysanthemum mixture is still burning almost as normal with charcoal sparks, while throwing off larger brighter sparks. If a homogenous mix is used the burn rate will be much slower and the sparks finer. Interestingly I thought the sparks were flashing a bit more while the composition was not fully dried. Maybe this concept is worth some further investigation. If you have a formula for the chinese yellow strobe stars that can be shared Zumber, I'm very interested 🙂
Zumber Posted July 21 Posted July 21 Sure why not KNO3-50 Sulphur-15 Charcoal-10 Magnelium 100 mesh-10 Sodium bi carbonate-15 Solvent NC lacquar. Form microstars 2 to 3 mm dry for 1 or 2 days and use it in Charcoal star and make pumped stars.
Norsepyro Posted July 21 Author Posted July 21 Thanks for the formula(again! 🙂) I see it is the same one you posted earlier. I didn't realise it could be used as microstars in a matrix formula, as it seems it could work well as a ordninary star bound with dextrin too! 🙂 I have never used a combination of charcoal and glitter stars mixed together before so this might be worth a try.
Zumber Posted July 22 Posted July 22 12 hours ago, Norsepyro said: ! 🙂! 🙂have never used a combination of charcoal and glitter stars mixed together before so this might be worth a try. Post video If possible.
Mumbles Posted August 20 Posted August 20 You have to think outside the box with some of the Chinese patents or use some intuitive knowledge to interpret them. It's not hard to deduce that mixing everything together won't give what you're looking for. I'm not saying that the above formula is real or will work, but it could technically comprises the bulk composition of the star. I would personally interpret it differently. Color changing flash willow (CN101481288) Matrix: 10 parts BP – 65-75%, C – 20-35%. S -5-10%, Dextrin – 3-5%. Granules: 3 parts CuO – 40-60%, AlMg – 25-35%, Cryolite – 8-15%, (May also have a binder, or a portion of the dextrin) Granules/Matrix = 3/10 This is kind of a basic interpretation. There very well could be a MgAl component of both the matrix and the granule. I based the above off of a guess that the granule was kind of a colored dragon egg based on the inclusion of cryolite. It may be totally off, but it will probably at least be a step in the right direction compared to just mixing everything together.
Norsepyro Posted August 21 Author Posted August 21 Well I have to admit that I made a small 10g batch of granules inspired from the (CN101481288) chinese patent, and tried to bind the composition with +4% dextrin and +14% destilled water. The MgAl was around - 100 mesh and has worked without problems with other water bound compostions. This mix heated violently immediately when water was added and kneaded into the small test batch. Fortunately I had bucket of water ready just in case and tossed the mix into it to stop the reaction. The ratio I tried was this: CuO: 50 MgAl :35 Cryolite: 15 Dextrin: 4 (added destilled water ca 14 parts) Not sure what made it react so violently. I have used the same CuO with water bound 63u MgAl before with no problems. It was the first time I tried the Cryolite I had sitting, may need to check if this reacts with MgAl alone in wet state.
cmjlab Posted August 21 Posted August 21 (edited) Did you buy the CuO or make it yourself from Copper Sulfate? Edit - added more I should explain I'm not a chemistry expert or have a formal education in chemistry like mumbles, he'd probably be the best person to answer this. But while waiting, I'll take some purely speculative guesses... The reason I asked was that if you tried to make CuO by thermal decomposition of Copper Sulfate into Oxide, then it would stand to reason that its not likely pure and would likely have a higher acidity level. Once you added water to the comp, the sulfuric acid could break down the layer of oxides on the Al in the Mg/Al, and lead to a heating up reaction. 2nd would be are you sure you didn't use plain Magnesium? When you say that it "vigorously " heated up, that would lead me to think of un-passivated Magnesium / water reaction. I also feel like I've read somewhere else that Cryolite can sometimes act as a base?, and erode some of the passivating layer on the Mg/Al, but that could be EDIT2 - disregard this paragraph Its complete bullshit - after doing another quick search. complete bullshit and should be researched more. Good luck! Charles Edited August 21 by cmjlab
Norsepyro Posted August 22 Author Posted August 22 I see from my notes that the granule composition which reacted was actually slightly different than first posted, it was this instead: CuO: 40 Sulfur: 10 MgAl: 35 Cryolite: 15 Dextrin: 4 However I doubt the sulfur makes much of a difference here. The metal is definately magnalium and has been used without problems in water bound compositions before. The CuO is commercial but it can of course have impurities from production. Maybe this ratio has ideal conditions for the reaction to occur so fast as it did. It only took a couple of seconds after moistening before it got unpleasant hot to touch.
cmjlab Posted August 22 Posted August 22 That's an interesting dilemma, I'll be curious to see what someone more knowledgeable comes up with. Just from looking at the formula, assuming all chemicals are of good quality, it wouldn't be something I would look at and be too concerned about using distilled water to avoid reactions (unlike anything containing Chlorates, high alkalinity, or Sodium Oxalate). Charles
Mumbles Posted August 23 Posted August 23 It's the cryolite. Or rather, it's the contaminates in the cryolite. Sorry, I should have mentioned this as it's a known issue. When I think crackle granules, I automatically thick NC lacquer binding even though I clearly mentioned dextrin in my previous post. Pure cryolite doesn't really exhibit this behavior, but impure material often has highly basic impurities like sodium hydroxide, sodium fluoride, etc. which are basic and quite corrosive to aluminum and magnesium. I feel bad for recommending this and not really thinking it through and giving all the information. My apologies.
Norsepyro Posted August 27 Author Posted August 27 Thanks for sharing your insight Mumbles. Even if being a bit sceptical to this mix beforehand, I did not expect that it could heat up so fast. Fortunately I only made tiny sample. I will try to wash the cryolite in pure water to see if it helps.
PyroGnome Posted October 2 Posted October 2 Sulfur also has a rapid exothermic H2S generating reaction with wet Mg/Al (heating Al with Sulfur will result in a runaway reaction and Mg is supposed to be a violent reaction according to Shimizu), although Mumbles is probably correct in that something in the cryolite is stripping the surface layer. Most compounds with tons of fluorine attached will end up with some amount of fluorine leaving and reacting when wet, although this is more common with pure fluorides and tetrafluoroborates AFAIK and I'm not sure whether cryolite will normally do this. The easy test would be whether or not it'll etch glass when wet.
Recommended Posts