MadMat Posted April 28 Posted April 28 (edited) I've noticed a couple posts where to me it seemed that some people were misinformed as to the different terms used for black powder. I feel it is to everyone's benefit if we are all on the same page when it comes to describing something as basic to firework making as BP. This will avoid confusion and will help with safety. These are the terms as I have known them and for over ten years they have served me well. Feel free to discuss or correct me as you see fit. OK... When the ingredients for black powder (75% KNO3, !5% charcoal and 10% sulfur) are ground finely and then simply sifted together, the resulting powder is called Polverone. It is mainly used as a flammable material to fill in the gaps between stars in a shell. If you run polverone or simply the ingredients through a ball mill for "X" number of hours the result is called "Mill Dust". When mill dust is either granulated or corned to specific sized grains it is now black powder/ gun powder. I know there are sites out there that describe granulating polverone with a "wet method" or "precipitation method", thereby eliminating the need for a ball mill. And I guess there are people out there that have made decent black powder with these methods, so, I guess there is some room for variations in the terms, but still knowing these terms and the differences will goo a long way in stopping miscommunication. Edited April 28 by MadMat 1
DavidF Posted April 29 Posted April 29 I've made screen-mixed powders that beat Goex in apples to apples comparisons, so I wouldn't necessarily call them polverone. The powders were pucked, corned, and sorted for grade. The key for me was to mill the charcoal component to an extremely fine state. It seems like you are defining polverone as 'weak black powder', where I think of it as a weaker different product that usually has a binder in it. The mixture you describe as polverone is also referred to as scratch mix sometimes. If it's made with commercial airfloat charcoal, it makes a great outer layer prime. Not looking to disagree here, maybe just saying not all "polverone" is too weak to be called black powder
MadMat Posted April 30 Author Posted April 30 I never meant to call polverone "weak". I made no distinctions about the burn speed of the different categories. I only wanted to point out the processes used to make them.
MadMat Posted May 2 Author Posted May 2 David, I noticed something else. You mentioned that you corned your screen mixed powder. If you read the last paragraph I wrote, you will notice I mentioned that. Since you corned your powder, it would no longer be considered polverone, but rather black powder produced by a method other than ball milling the mixture.
Mumbles Posted May 15 Posted May 15 If you ask 10 people to define these terms, it's very likely you're going to get 10 variations of replies. I have a general idea of each, but it's more application dependent than an exact definition when I'm trying to describe something. For me, this is typically how I use the terms. Green meal/green mix/scratch mix - Screened together black powder components (~75/15/10 but exact ratios can vary slightly). Typically made with minimally processed ingredients, with no special effort to produce extremely fine components. Personally, due to the crystalline nature of my KNO3, I may still ball mill for 20-30 minutes just to break things up, but no effort to substantially grind. I also tend to use exclusively commercial airfloat for this. This is good for priming stars or fuses. Having some slightly coarser components is beneficial in this respect. Can also be used to refer to a pre-made mixture that can be added to a ball mill to produce meal powder. Polverone - Granulated green meal used as a flammable filler in shells. The fines also make a great prime. Meal powder - Powdered, sufficiently milled material. DavidF is more than capable of making BP without ever putting a completed mixture inside a ball mill. I'd still classify his material here due to the milling of the individual components. For me, this typically is made with a hotter charcoal and ultimately gets used to make black powder. I have very few uses for the finely milled powder itself. Can be coated onto a carrier for ball shells. If anything it is used as a base for stars, black match, insert compositions, or rockets. Using milled together BP components has some advantages for certain stars in terms of burn speed and fallout. Black powder - Granulated meal powder used for lifting and bursting shells. Some people will make a distinction of material which has been screen granulated vs. corned vs. corned and glazed. I personally don't make a distinction, but different processing methods can have some advantages. Often graded by granule size for various applications. The fines from this process also make a great prime, but I generally reserve them for priming spolettes and shell fuses. As I said, everyone has their own exact definitions which I've found can often lead to confusion. Polverone I've found to be the most divisive in my experience depending on who you're talking to and what style of building is being referenced.
DavidF Posted May 21 Posted May 21 On 5/2/2024 at 2:03 AM, MadMat said: David, I noticed something else. You mentioned that you corned your screen mixed powder. If you read the last paragraph I wrote, you will notice I mentioned that. Since you corned your powder, it would no longer be considered polverone, but rather black powder produced by a method other than ball milling the mixture. My screen mixed powder was never polverone at any point. I corned the screen-mixed powders for testing purposes, because gurus have said that homemade black powder cannot be compared to commercial powders unless it was pressed to the same density and graded to the same size as the commercial powder it was being compared to. So I did that to prove a point to them, since the prevailing wisdom was that black powder MUST be milled as a complete mixture to be useful as black powder, and used in the ways that commercial black powder is used. I disagreed with that position, believing that intimacy of incorporation could be achieved without 3 component milling. My opinion is that 3 component milling is done because it's the easiest way, and not because it's the only way. The very same powders that were pucked, corned and graded were also prepared as screen granulated powders, after proving that the pucked, corned and graded powders could match or exceed Goex performance in apples to apples comparisons. The granulated powders burned faster than pucked BP powders, and added at least a second to average baseball flight times when tested that way. This statement "When the ingredients for black powder (75% KNO3, !5% charcoal and 10% sulfur) are ground finely and then simply sifted together, the resulting powder is called Polverone." is not correct. As Mumbles mentioned, polverone is granulated. Nobody uses screened fine powder to pack in shells. It would be messy to use fine powder to pack between stars and comets, and the powder doesn't flow well. It's always granulated. I hope this clarifies my take on it and that no feathers are ruffled, as that is not my intent.
Richtee Posted May 22 Posted May 22 Damn. Reminds me of the BBQ world. Glaze, sauce, no sauce, strip the membrane 1
Soloserly Posted August 27 Posted August 27 On 5/21/2024 at 11:27 AM, DavidF said: ... Nobody uses screened fine powder to pack in shells. It would be messy to use fine powder to pack between stars and comets, and the powder doesn't flow well. It's always granulated. I agree that granulated is best for burst, but packing shells with micro stars THEN adding green mix or meal powder and tapping the shell to distribute the powder is a common practice in many fireworks made in India, China, and elsewhere. Check out the Pyroshine and Circus Thuppaki videos and you'll see it over and over. I've used this method in bombettes because I can fit more stars in that way, and it works fine.
Kalifireworks Posted August 27 Posted August 27 4 hours ago, Soloserly said: I agree that granulated is best for burst, but packing shells with micro stars THEN adding green mix or meal powder and tapping the shell to distribute the powder is a common practice in many fireworks made in India, China, and elsewhere. Check out the Pyroshine and Circus Thuppaki videos and you'll see it over and over. I've used this method in bombettes because I can fit more stars in that way, and it works fine. Im pretty sure thats flash.
cmjlab Posted August 27 Posted August 27 3 hours ago, Kalifireworks said: Im pretty sure thats flash. +1. I also thought it was flash. In fact there was an Indian pyrotechnician here that made shells that way using a Barium Nitrate based flash I believe or something similar. When they broke, they looked just like commercial flash broken shells, but he had much nicer symmetry. Wish I remembered who it was (maybe Zumber, or Swapniltar?).
Soloserly Posted August 27 Posted August 27 8 hours ago, cmjlab said: +1. I also thought it was flash. In fact there was an Indian pyrotechnician here that made shells that way using a Barium Nitrate based flash I believe or something similar. When they broke, they looked just like commercial flash broken shells, but he had much nicer symmetry. Wish I remembered who it was (maybe Zumber, or Swapniltar?). Yes, various forms of flash are often used, but some form of BP mill dust is also used in many situations. Especially in the Thuppaki videos, they clearly show a shiny aluminum-based flash (usually some poor soul with a short life expectancy covered in it) for firecrackers and certain burst applications and then when loading burst charge in plastic ball shells it is a dull-gray powder that looks just like scratch mix. Even in some of the Chinese videos, they'll wear a respirator when dealing with flash, but when loading burst charge (again with a dull-gray powder) they often don't - which makes me think they're not worried about toxicity so it is probably some kind of BP mix or benzo. Again, we all know that flash is often used, especially as a booster in larger shells, but try it sometime; a good fine mill dust works great as a burst charge in small shells like bombettes, ping-pong shells, even two-inch ball shells, etc. It's not a sharp crackling burst but it works fine, is much cheaper, and is less likely to blow blind on hard-to-light stars. You do have to be careful not to over-fill - you want to distribute it between the stars but not completely fill all the empty spaces. I suspect that stars primed with a thick layer of scratch mix would probably have enough oomph to burst a small shell without any added burst. I think I'll try that tonight. 🙂
Zumber Posted August 28 Posted August 28 as @cmjlab has told, upto 3 inch size shells are nitrate based flash broken and it is permitted. above 3 or 3.5 inch size shell is not sold to consumer and only sold to licensed pyrotechnician as a display shell these shells uses MCSR plus slow nitrate flash as a booster. I personally made both type of shells and I have never used Meal powder in it, I have personally visited to companies and I have not seen any of them uses BP in it. Most top reputed company labours uses masks ,respirator and maintains Standards.....medium units still careless about worker safety. 1- MCSR +slow nitrate flash booster shell 2-Slow nitrate Flash as a burst charge Can you please post a link of video where you have seen BP mixture is added??? I am sure Its Slow nitrate Flash. 1
Soloserly Posted August 29 Posted August 29 Thanks for the info, Zumber. I'm glad you're still with us! Since the slow flash you are talking about is essentially a black powder recipe with dark aluminum replacing the charcoal, it's very possible that those videos are showing them using flash. Thanks for setting me straight. The videos weren't the point, though. I was responding to the comment that nobody uses meal powder for burst and that it's too messy. My point is that meal powder or scratch mix work fine for gentle burst and are no messier than using flash. Just tonight I shot off some bombettes that had no burst charge at all in them, but the stars were primed with scratch mix, and they burst 20240828_194743_1.mp4 beautifully. Not trying to argue a meaningless point, just wanted to share a simple cheap option. Thanks again for the info.
Zumber Posted August 29 Posted August 29 If it works to you you can use it. another thing to mention here is we dont use dark aluminium powder I personally use 999 aluminium powder which is gray in colour. 999 Is brand name of aluminium powder by famous company MEPCO. In india there are many varieities of aluminium and each has specific use. for more technical information visit mepco company...... https://www.mepco.co.in/
DavidF Posted August 29 Posted August 29 Soloserly said: "I was responding to the comment that nobody uses meal powder for burst and that it's too messy. My point is that meal powder or scratch mix work fine for gentle burst and are no messier than using flash." What I actually said: "Nobody uses screened fine powder to pack in shells. It would be messy to use fine powder to pack between stars and comets, and the powder doesn't flow well." By screened fine powder, I mean what the OP described as polverone. His description: " When the ingredients for black powder (75% KNO3, !5% charcoal and 10% sulfur) are ground finely and then simply sifted together, the resulting powder is called Polverone. It is mainly used as a flammable material to fill in the gaps between stars in a shell. If you run polverone or simply the ingredients through a ball mill for "X" number of hours the result is called "Mill Dust". When mill dust is either granulated or corned to specific sized grains it is now black powder/ gun powder." Let me clarify my statement. Nobody uses the fine screened powder described in the OP's first post (scratch mix, green mix) to pack in shells, as polverone is used. Polverone is packed between comets and inserts, typically in cylinder shells. I never mentioned meal powder and I never mentioned burst. I agree that packing green mix between stars and comets would be no messier than packing flash between the same items. They would both be messy to use.
Soloserly Posted August 30 Posted August 30 The OP makes a good point; I wish there was a single standard for all these terms.
Giuseppe Posted August 30 Posted August 30 I don't care who you are, what you know, or what you use.... After a day in the "shop" I always come out looking like some sort of vaudeville actor/comedian in need of makeup removal and a shower. 1
Soloserly Posted August 30 Posted August 30 15 hours ago, Giuseppe said: I don't care who you are, what you know, or what you use.... After a day in the "shop" I always come out looking like some sort of vaudeville actor/comedian in need of makeup removal and a shower. And I'll bet you smell great, too! 😄
SKC Posted December 6 Posted December 6 I am using slow nitrate based flash as burst charge for my 3inch shells. For a 3inch shell I am using 25 gms of flash into it. The burst and spread is quite satisfactory to me. Here is a video for demonstration 4.mp4
Almostparadise Posted December 7 Posted December 7 (edited) Great looking shell! Is that a charcoal streamer comp over a red core? Edited December 7 by Almostparadise
Almostparadise Posted December 7 Posted December 7 Like Glusatz? 🤔 Maybe not. Regarding Glusatz, I've used it effectively between colors but the layer wasn't quite thick enough for what i had in mind which was to let the first color finish completely before the next one lit up. Nonetheless it made a great relay and still gave the appearance of everything stopping and starting all at the same time. I am looking forward to using it again maybe trying it over cores to get an idea of how much or little light it puts off.
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