All10Fingers Posted February 10 Posted February 10 from my work I have a butt load of raw pine resin. Is anyone familiar with the correct method of processing it to colomphy (im certain thats incorrect spelling). I assume it will need melted and filtered but I'm not sure if I should process it like charcoal and burn off all volatiles or more like turpentine and use low heat to preserve such ingredients? I know it's not a very common part of pyrotechnics. But like I said, I have gallons of the stuff and getting more is as simple as picking gathering chunks from around the base of the pine trees Any substitution values would be appreciated as well
Crazy Swede Posted February 10 Posted February 10 Colophonium is a byproduct from the distilling process of pine resin to produce turpentine. I guess you could just carefully cook it for a long time and end up with the solid resin after cooling. But, it is hardly used at all in pyrotechnics today and it does not burn as clean as shellac, red gum or phenolic resins. So, what will you use it for?
Arthur Posted February 10 Posted February 10 Many a formula including a natural compound get replaced by formulae including a manufactured chemical compound. This is simply because a natural compound is usually variable, but manufactured compound is usually of certain composition.
Crazy Swede Posted February 10 Posted February 10 That is correct, but still, colophonium does not have much practical applications in pyrotechnics.
All10Fingers Posted February 10 Author Posted February 10 The main reason I'm considering it is because it's free and abundant. It fall from the trees in golf ball sized chunks. I've made pitch with it, used it for glue, sealant, incense, and it's a fantastic fire starter.. While it may be inferior to red gum... It literally grows in trees so if there's a way to replace the one for the other, I'd be interested in learning how. Plus it smells nice so there's that 1
SharkWhisperer Posted February 11 Posted February 11 I think it's fantastic that All10F wants to experiment with it. Might just come up with some interesting ideas and find new utility for an oft-forgotten substance. Might be difficult (sticky) to work with. Try freezing it and see if you can get it into powder with a coffee grinder or mortar/pestle. Woodsy-smelling fireworks!
All10Fingers Posted February 11 Author Posted February 11 So, I mixed some with charcoal and a tiny bit of sulfur... It makes the best strobe I've ever made granted I've only attempted strobe once and it was a complete failure. The way this melts as it burns makes for a excellent blinking effect. Gunna start trying a little oxidizer to speed things up a bit. I think I can get some nice charcoal effects out of it. If anyone with experience has any wisdom on the topic let me know. Otherwise I'll share any breakthroughs I encounter. P.S. unrelated side note. I found 90llbs of sulfur and 50lbs of kno3 in a dumpster at work and I promoted, soI just gotta tell someone if my good fortune.
SharkWhisperer Posted February 17 Posted February 17 So you've got buckets of pine resin you tested with charcoal+sulfur but no oxidizer so far, happened upon 50 lbs of KNO3, and haven't yet combined the two in experimentation? Sheesh. Good thing it's a weekend now so you can find time for testing! Awaiting an update... Ha! Eyeballs n fingers. Protect them.
All10Fingers Posted February 18 Author Posted February 18 Update. I've found mixing 50g kno3, 10g charcoal, 5g sulfur, and 20g if resin. Passed twice thru a kitchen screen, will burn in a pile similar to green mix. Not very violent but definitely hot enough for the flame to propagate across the mix. It's a fairly large flame but cooler in temp. More like a candle than a flare. It's been raining/snowing for the passed month so I haven't had much time outside to play with fire. Lots of reading and speculation happening tho. The hope is to determine pine resins value as a fuel/ binder possibly to substitute into existing formula or develop unique ones based on these ingredients
cmjlab Posted February 18 Posted February 18 (edited) I've been following this out of curiosity - it seems like you've summed it up pretty well though All10Fingers..... If processed into rosin / colony, it can be used in replacement for red gum in older formulas (only place I've ever seen it listed). So out of curiosity I was reading the forums about how it's turned into colophony. Someone tried boiling it down after mixing it with alcohol. They were left with a "black glass" once cooled, that easily powdered and "burned fiercely as a fuel". No other info found. If I had an excess of pine resin, I'd probably take the same route of boiling it down, then grinding it in mortar and pestle to a powder, then try as a red gum substitute in potassium chlorate formulas. I'm no chemist, but I'd guess you'd need more colophony than red gum (again, just a guess). My next guess is that it would work okay, maybe, but you'd end up with a lot more smoke (another guess). Anyhow, let us know how it goes with your experiments, and of course stay safe! Edited February 18 by cmjlab
All10Fingers Posted February 19 Author Posted February 19 I did something similar but simpler. I poked a bunch of holes in a can and placed it in another can. Then just filled the top can with raw pine sap and light it with a blow torch. The needles and vapors burned and the resin melted and dripped down into the other can. It was like glass once cooked. I froze it ground and slowly added different ingredients until a loose pile burned the way I wanted... Kinda. With the reminder I stirred with plain alcohol made a pancake and dusted with milll dust. I'll take a video of one burning once their dry. Used no water so shouldn't take long
SharkWhisperer Posted February 19 Posted February 19 4 hours ago, All10Fingers said: Update. I've found mixing 50g kno3, 10g charcoal, 5g sulfur, and 20g if resin. Passed twice thru a kitchen screen, will burn in a pile similar to green mix. Not very violent but definitely hot enough for the flame to propagate across the mix. It's a fairly large flame but cooler in temp. More like a candle than a flare. It's been raining/snowing for the passed month so I haven't had much time outside to play with fire. Lots of reading and speculation happening tho. The hope is to determine pine resins value as a fuel/ binder possibly to substitute into existing formula or develop unique ones based on these ingredients All10, there's plenty of videos showing burning off or distilling (100-160C) the turpentine and other volatiles from more solid pine tar/rosin/colophony, which is then filtered and cooled to the hard product. Some useful info perhaps at https://www.rosin-factory.com/rosin-chemistry/ . I see it for sale powdered, for example, for $25/pound at https://shop.chemicalstore.com/navigation/detail.asp?MySessionID=49-353623955&CatID=&id=ROSINP100 50% KNO3 is a pretty low oxidizer level. I see you were able to get your resin through a kitchen screen, but those are typically 20-30 mesh, so possibly large particles. Were you able to powderize your resin to smaller particles first? What kind of charcoal are you using? Milled?
All10Fingers Posted February 19 Author Posted February 19 I'm using pine charcoal, milled about 4 hours. I've used several methods for processing the pine resin. Some say lowest possible heat so to save the turpentine vapors. I've also seen others say to burns off all the volatiles like one would with charcoal. Im afraid to throw any in my grinder because it could potentially make a mess of it. This definitely isn't the final recipe. I agree it definitely needs more oxygen.
All10Fingers Posted February 19 Author Posted February 19 VID_20240219_145344285.mp4 So far, pretty underwhelming
SharkWhisperer Posted February 20 Posted February 20 Maybe a good firestarter for camping or the backyard firepit. Or for smoking out moles and wee-hogs. Not sure that red gum would burn much faster in that concoction. But having buckets of the stuff for free, it might be a useful less-expensive replacement for RG in some applications, especially if you can get it into a fine powder.
All10Fingers Posted February 20 Author Posted February 20 Fire starter is exactly what I've been using it for, it's also makes a fantastic field dressing. For everything from mosquito bites to open wounds. It makes a clean deal and is antimicrobial. Plus it's said to accelerate healing. Burning it keeps away mosquitoes and smells nice. I guess next step is to pick a formula that uses red gum, and substitute my resin for it. Observe how it burns and adjust the amount up or down until the proper affect is achieved. Anybody have any suggestions for a recipe you recommend or just would like to see me try?
SharkWhisperer Posted February 20 Posted February 20 Check out Vinsol...resin from southern yellow pine. Replacement for red gum, supposedly 1:1 fuel value, at $10/pound at FWC (red gum is currently $11 at same place...). https://www.fireworkscookbook.com/product/vinsol-resin/ Think I've had a pound laying around unused for several years now. As good or better than RG? Dunno...
Crazy Swede Posted February 20 Posted February 20 Rosin/Colophony was unpopular in pyrotechnics since it sticks to surfaces and builds up on pressing tools. Good idea not using your grinder! Because of this a small amount of stearin was often added to such formulas. In general, finding a material and trying to find uses for it is seldom a successful way. It should be the other way around, i.e. that you already have a need that this new material is perfect for.
Crazy Swede Posted February 20 Posted February 20 (edited) All10, maybe you should cook it longer? Apparently that improves its burning characteristics and reduces its stickiness Check this out: https://rec.pyrotechnics.narkive.com/I9UB1rQl/experiments-with-rosin-warning-ramble Edited February 20 by Crazy Swede
cmjlab Posted February 20 Posted February 20 7 hours ago, Crazy Swede said: All10, maybe you should cook it longer? Apparently that improves its burning characteristics and reduces its stickiness Check this out: https://rec.pyrotechnics.narkive.com/I9UB1rQl/experiments-with-rosin-warning-ramble That's the forum post I found and read. Interesting that OP was already on the right track and ended up with same end result (some form of dark glassy material). I'm curious to see how it works for him as a red gum replacement - again, my guess is a bit (or a lot) more smoke.... Fingers crossed, holding my breath..... 🙂
All10Fingers Posted February 21 Author Posted February 21 The stuff powdered very wellin an electric food processor. Since there's some interest in this thread, here's a picture of the resin in its different forms, raw, processed and powdered. I have 50 grams of hardt red#3 drying right now. We'll find out how it looks soon. I also had the idea of maybe instead of dry mixing powders. What if I stirred the ingredients into molten resin as if I was making glue with it...? There would be no drying time. They'd be ready as soon as they cooled. What you guy's think? P. S. Still open for suggestions for formulas to try subbing the red gum for resin {no ap or chlorates please.
All10Fingers Posted February 21 Author Posted February 21 Dry pile test went swimmingly. Much better than I anticipated. Nice color, nice burn, not much slag, catches fire easy. And still smells good VID_20240220_211512967.mp4
cmjlab Posted February 21 Posted February 21 Pretty neat, unfortunately I can't really watch these types of embedded videos. I did catch a glimpse of nice red though. Was there much smoke or did it seem about normal?
All10Fingers Posted February 21 Author Posted February 21 It was kinda smokey, but not too smokey. Much more complete burn than last attempt. It was also wet on outside so that could of influenced it some. Idk why some people can't view my vids. I just click the little paperclip and select the video and presto. If there's another way that would help let me know... But I will not make a YouTube account don't bother with those ideas. If you'd like, I could post more still shots instead of short videos so more people can see what's up
Recommended Posts