Sulphurstan Posted January 23 Posted January 23 (edited) Some time ago, I remember to have read that glitter stars like N1,D1, buttered popcorn shall be pressed, instead of rolled, to make a better glitter effect. Is that true, or am I just remembering wrong? I would like to roll N1, because I don't have very effective tooling for pressing... Thank you in advance for your replies. Edited January 23 by Sulphurstan
Zumber Posted January 24 Posted January 24 This is because too much water destroys glitter effect pressed star uses little water and dryes relatively faster. If you dont have tooling you can buy syringe cut its end and you can make pressed star its relatively very cheap and works too.
redbullzuiper Posted January 25 Posted January 25 You can roll it, just dont spray too much. These are rolled Do they look like they underperform because they are rolled? 1
kingkama Posted January 25 Posted January 25 On 1/23/2024 at 10:50 PM, Sulphurstan said: Some time ago, I remember to have read that glitter stars like N1,D1, buttered popcorn shall be pressed, instead of rolled, to make a better glitter effect. Is that true, or am I just remembering wrong? I would like to roll N1, because I don't have very effective tooling for pressing... Thank you in advance for your replies. You can sub dextrine with pvb and use alcool to moist, half pvb for dextrine 1
redbullzuiper Posted January 26 Posted January 26 What kingkama said is I recommend too. Bind with PVB, it rolls easier, it sticks betrer and no water needed. PVB is a really good binder, especially for rolling stars. 1
cmjlab Posted January 26 Posted January 26 PVB is the one binder I haven't used, but Ive read a lot about it in different places. For anyone who has used it, is PVB a 1 to 1 replacement for Phenolic Resin? Or does it behave differently? Does it visibly affect glitters or strobes? Does anyone know it's fuel value compared to Phenolic Resin? Thanks, I'll have to find some to try out.
redbullzuiper Posted January 26 Posted January 26 19 minutes ago, cmjlab said: PVB is the one binder I haven't used, but Ive read a lot about it in different places. For anyone who has used it, is PVB a 1 to 1 replacement for Phenolic Resin? Or does it behave differently? Does it visibly affect glitters or strobes? Does anyone know it's fuel value compared to Phenolic Resin? Thanks, I'll have to find some to try out. No, its not a 1:1 replacement, I use 40% of the needed phenolic resin, so instead of 10 I use 4. But atleast 3, for binding. You can also just use both, just lower the phenolic a bit and use 3% of PVB. You can substite it for dextrin too, I use 4%, regardless of how many dextrin is called for in the formula. Richard and Ken said they had good results in streamer compositions. Ive used it in a strobe and it worked, Richard said that it positively affected strobes and he released some PVB based strobes, I believe on pyro geat forum. Blues wont work well with PVB, it washes out the color. Bit the same as the veline blue, bit somewhat more washed out. I also rolled heavy charcoal based stars with PVB, like the spanish kamuro. It worked well. See this video. These were bound with PVB. Regarding glitters, I have no clue, I believe PVB has more fuel than phenolic has, and also whitens the flame. So idk how that affect glitter stars. 1
cmjlab Posted January 27 Posted January 27 That's some good insight, thank you. The shell looked nice, was it PVB that made it burn all the way to the ground like that? Or were you still working out star size / burn time on that one? Thanks again.
redbullzuiper Posted January 27 Posted January 27 It was probaly because of both the wood used and the PVB. The stars were only 8mm
Zumber Posted January 27 Posted January 27 2 hours ago, cmjlab said: That's some good insight, thank you. The shell looked nice, was it PVB that made it burn all the way to the ground like that? Or were you still working out star size / burn time on that one? Thanks again. Yeah binders has great effect on burn rate.
Crazy Swede Posted January 27 Posted January 27 PVB has a lot less oxygen demand than phenolic resin but should only be used in smaller as a binder. It is not a primary fuel! its best application is together with phenolic resin that makes the stars or comets dry very hard. Especially after curing at elevated temperature. PVB also works very well together with NC lacquer, makes the stars rock hard. 2
redbullzuiper Posted January 28 Posted January 28 @Crazy Swede could you maybe explain why in PVB compositions Ken en Richard were able to leave out all other fuels? They omitted in some composition all phenolic, dextrin, red gum and sometimes even lower the magnalium? While only having max 5% PVB. How much fuel value does PVB have compared to phenolic?
Crazy Swede Posted January 30 Posted January 30 @redbullzuiper, can you show me the formulas you are referring to? I do not have the actual fuel value difference between red gum and PVB. I have only noticed that when experimenting with blue and green compositions, low amounts like 3-5 % does not affect the flame colour as much as red gum does.
redbullzuiper Posted January 31 Posted January 31 @Crazy Swede here are some topics where they discuss is. https://pyro-gear.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?t=794 https://pyro-gear.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?t=873 The other discussions are in the private section so I cant share it all. But they were able to basically leave out all organic fuels and substitute it for PVB, in quantities below 5% while the color improved and burn rate stayed the same. Usualy I get very hard to light stars leaving out the organic fuel, but I can confirm that with PVB stars light very easily even without the original organic fuels. PVB is truly a wonderfull chemicall. It has so many benefits.
ThaDawg Posted January 31 Posted January 31 Is there any difference between: pvb 75h Pvb 60t Pvb 60h Pvb 30h I really wanna try rolling glitters!
Sulphurstan Posted January 31 Author Posted January 31 3 hours ago, redbullzuiper said: @Crazy Swede here are some topics where they discuss is. https://pyro-gear.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?t=794 https://pyro-gear.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?t=873 The other discussions are in the private section so I cant share it all. But they were able to basically leave out all organic fuels and substitute it for PVB, in quantities below 5% while the color improved and burn rate stayed the same. Usualy I get very hard to light stars leaving out the organic fuel, but I can confirm that with PVB stars light very easily even without the original organic fuels. PVB is truly a wonderfull chemicall. It has so many benefits. @redbullzuiper yes I knew you 💕PVB hehe... To make things clear (I didn't understand it quite well in the previous posts here above). To substitute dextrin, you have 1 dextrin=0.4 PVB ? @ThaDawg Maybe redbull Z is THe guy who knows, for me I didn't even know there were several sorts of PVB....
Crazy Swede Posted February 1 Posted February 1 19 hours ago, ThaDawg said: Is there any difference between: pvb 75h Pvb 60t Pvb 60h Pvb 30h I really wanna try rolling glitters! From a combustion standpoint, they behave very similar. From a practical standpoint, only 30 have unlimited solubility in all the common solvents. If you plan to use ethanol only however, all are good. Glitter stars and high charcoal stars often depend on water to dissolve some of the nitrates to leach into the charcoal, for optimum performance, so PVB might not be the best binder for those effects. I'm sure however PVB can be used in such applications but it might alter the performance.
Crazy Swede Posted February 1 Posted February 1 On 1/28/2024 at 5:13 PM, redbullzuiper said: @Crazy Swede could you maybe explain why in PVB compositions Ken en Richard were able to leave out all other fuels? They omitted in some composition all phenolic, dextrin, red gum and sometimes even lower the magnalium? While only having max 5% PVB. How much fuel value does PVB have compared to phenolic? I have read everything (I think?) about PVB at Pyro-Gear and Fireworking over the years and even though I'm sure there are working formulas relying on PVB as the main fuel it is normally not used as such. PVB has been used in pyrotechnics much longer than the hobby fireworks community might be aware of but usually only as a binder. I do not know why it is a surprisingly good secondary, or even primary, fuel.
redbullzuiper Posted February 1 Posted February 1 (edited) @Sulphurstan No, I also said I atleast use 3% for binding. 0.4 would be a bit useless As a general rule, omit both dextrin and red gum if its called for in the composition. Compositions that use phenolic resin, I just lower the value of phenolic resin and use both together. amd yes, I love PVB. Flames get bigger in colored stars and its a dream to roll stars with haha Edited February 1 by redbullzuiper
ThaDawg Posted February 1 Posted February 1 @redbullzuiper When you roll glitters like n1 with pvb as a binder do you only use alcohol or a mix with alcohol and water to get the nitrate in to the charcoal?
redbullzuiper Posted February 2 Posted February 2 @ThaDawg I use 100% IPA, no water, the stars in the video were rolled that way.
kingkama Posted February 4 Posted February 4 I see big %of pvb in recipe, i use no more than 1,5% and the binding Is perfect, for the carbon stars use much than 2.5% reduce the burn rate too much and the stars don't release sprizel and Sparks but tend to be firing clumps. 1
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