FieryCreations Posted January 19 Posted January 19 (edited) Bought a nozzled core burner spindle and tube support. Using NEPT tubes. Very first two rockets The tube support started widening despite being properly tightened and pressed at the appropriate poundage included on their pressing chart. I didn’t want to waste my first rocket, so I took it out of the damage tube support and tried finishing it by hand. Didn’t realize the tube had massively shrink from the support widening so my rammer impacted the spindle and damaged it. When I asked Caleb about replacing the spindle, he replied no to a replacement and said to send it in for repair. After all the waiting I decided to just purchase a new one and waited for it to come. The very first rocket I pressed I was damned careful not to pass the pass line after what just happened, and it still immediately got stuck. i’m new at this but I have done a massive amount of homework. Am I missing something and screwing up? Or is my tooling out of spec? The clay nozzle didn’t even press. Once I removed the support it fell apart and I was left with this mess Edited January 19 by FieryCreations
pyrokid Posted January 19 Posted January 19 I seriously doubt the tooling is out of spec. Lots of questions here. Seems unlikely that normal pressing forces would split the tube support. Tooling looks right from the picture although I am skeptical of that nozzle geometry. A black powder rocket of this size you should make by hand to start because it is more forgiving and easier to monitor the process. Good luck!
FieryCreations Posted January 19 Author Posted January 19 30 minutes ago, pyrokid said: I seriously doubt the tooling is out of spec. Lots of questions here. Seems unlikely that normal pressing forces would split the tube support. Tooling looks right from the picture although I am skeptical of that nozzle geometry. A black powder rocket of this size you should make by hand to start because it is more forgiving and easier to monitor the process. Good luck! The tooling looks right? Why is the rammer completely stuck on the spindle when the no pass line is still above the top of the tube support?? Am I missing something? 1
Arthur Posted January 19 Posted January 19 (edited) I've had tubes and tools from Woody's and they just worked first time. Woody's has been making tooling for a long while now and we never see a post here blaming him for bad tooling so possibly something you are doing doesn't work with a Woody's tool. Do you have detailed instructions from Woody and did you follow them exactly. That you destroyed a tube support means that you grossly over pressed the tool. A great benefit of hand ramming with a mallet is that you can hear and feel the change in the sound as the comp is compressed from dust to solid, at which point you stop hammering that increment and load the next powder increment. Edited January 19 by Arthur
cmjlab Posted January 19 Posted January 19 (edited) Woody's doesn't do instructions (in the conventional - "user manual" sense) from my understanding and tooling I've purchased. He is however on FW.com and is happy to provide input when people need help with tooling (on the forum anyways). He also typically refers people to the videos he or Ned have made. The only things I can think of are: 1. Did you happen to test the fit of the replacement spindle before pressing a motor? (I'm not saying it's your fault - but I have so many spindles and rammers intermixed that I always make sure I grab the correct rammers by test fitting them over the spindle. 2. I doubt you went past the "no-pass line" since if I recall that was the issue with the last one.... So is it possible you accidentally ordered the wrong rammer replacement? Or did you tell Woody's what tooling you had, and he told you which rammer to buy as a replacement? 3. Though Woody's has a good reputation, and I realize you are frustrated, you may consider emailing Woody with your issue be ginning at the initial tooling order, damage that you have incurred, and replacement rammer / damage, and asking for his advice / help (I don't know how old you are, and I'm not trying to insult you or imply anything - however, if you leave the blame out of your email, and play to someone's experience and knowledge like Woody has, you may get a better result than the first time you contacted him.....just my 2¢, you don't have to take it or use it, but it's "free"). Good luck, and I hope you are able to get this sorted out and identify what the issues are (regardless of who is at fault). Edited January 19 by cmjlab
FieryCreations Posted January 19 Author Posted January 19 (edited) I asked for instructions and that's the reply I got. I'm sorry but that sounds like asking for trouble and confusion. He referred me to Neds 101 videos. I watched them all and none of them answered all my questions. 1. I did not test fit it to prior. I would have if there were some instructions. Didn't see that on Neds videos either. 2. Hell no I did not go pass the line after last time. I have my order in front of me. It's the 1lb core burner spindle, or at least it should be unless it got mixed up like a previous order they sent me. 3. It has been over a month since I placed by first order to get started. Caleb knows about the trouble from the initial to this. He did not want to send me a replacement spindle. I emailed him last night asking to send everything back for a refund, and he replied that I can "send in the pieces I'm having trouble with to get fixed up." I don't want to keep doing this back and forth thing. I realize they seem to work great for most people but that hasn't been my experience so far. Considering I've had repeated issues with orders and breaking tooling I feel like I should be offered a refund. Or at least they should be shipping me out replacements and not making me wait yet again. I know Caleb is loved around here so I dont anticipate this being received well. Caleb replied again saying they don’t educate people on firework making and blaming me for breaking it. He has thousands of customers he enjoys doing business with and if I don’t like it lose his number and email. What a huge disappointment. I regret purchasing anything from him and now I’m stuck with it. Edited January 19 by FieryCreations 1
DavidF Posted January 19 Posted January 19 I can think of one possibility. If comp is lodged just inside the open end of the rammer, it will become stuck before you get to the no pass line. I've had it happen. I used a wooden tool to bust it out of there after I got it unstuck. There's very little information to go on here, so our ability to be helpful is limited. 1
cmjlab Posted January 19 Posted January 19 I am sorry for the frustrating start you've had. To be clear, I'm not taking the side of the seller, I was offering suggestions on how you could hopefully get made right. As Caleb apparently said, he has a lot of other customers. One other suggestion, you could try selling the tooling off to recover some of your money. Obviously nobody will pay full price for a stripped out tube support (it does sound still useable though with a couple modifications), or crushed rammer, but the spindle might still be serviceable along with the other rammers. Ben Smith is another tool maker, he hasn't had great personal luck lately (which may have affected his business credibility - other people's words not mine), but he sells some 1# tooling thru Pyro direct or Pyro creations sometimes (or some pyro supply). That's all I got, wish I could be more help, sorry. Good luck
FrankRizzo Posted January 19 Posted January 19 (edited) Fiery - I think the easiest explanation for the second problem is that you're not adding enough clay. Woody does sell two different spindles though: A super BP spindle and a basic one. As I understand, the super spindle looks very similar but is slightly longer. If you were to have a "super" spindle and a "regular" nozzle ram, I could see that being a problem. For the first problem, I've definitely heard of folks having those cap screws stretch and the support coming apart. Is that what happened with yours? Edit: On closer inspection, the reflection of the two polished surfaces was confusing my eyes. Edited January 20 by FrankRizzo 1
mabuse00 Posted January 20 Posted January 20 Please give us an exact description of your pressing setup and the pressing forces used. And also tell us how you monitored the force. Dont't be to frustrated, many people here (me included ) damaged or destroyed tools by stupidity. It's rocket science, literally, but anybody with a sound mind and a careful approach will succeed at point.
FrankRizzo Posted January 21 Posted January 21 After consultation with the folks over at Fireworking, it seems that the only reasonable explanation is that you've got either clay or comp packed up inside that rammer. If you've got a Menards or Lowes nearby, something like this is a great addition to your tooling collection: Performax® Black Oxide 1/4" Aircraft Twist Drill Bit at Menards® https://www.menards.com/main/tools/power-tool-accessories/drill-bits-accessories/performax-reg-black-oxide-1-4-aircraft-twist-drill-bit/5146/p-1497525440588-c-10079.htm
Richtee Posted January 21 Posted January 21 Have you tried heating the jacket? then chill the spindle with Dust Off, or hell butane/propane. Might help get it out.
DavidF Posted January 21 Posted January 21 Like Caleb suggested before, screwing two pieces of wood parallel to each other on the bench top will perform like a vise to hold the square base, while a rod or Visegrips are used to twist the rammer off. From the picture, the rammer end does not look flared out. There may be no damage done. I use a wooden clothes pin half, mounted to a solid base to keep the first rammer clean on a 1lb toolset. I've used it to bust out the comp too. If it's BP, soaking it in hot water should be helpful too. As we've observed, we've been given scant information, so our attempts to be helpful are based on guesswork.
FrankRizzo Posted January 22 Posted January 22 (edited) DavidF - Are you thinking that the rammer is stuck at this point? I didn't get that impression. He needs to check the rammer for clay/comp. There's no reason for the rammer to be stuck at that point without something up inside the rammer. Edited January 22 by FrankRizzo
DavidF Posted January 22 Posted January 22 FrankRizzo, yes. I thought that's what he was telling us when he said this: "When I asked Caleb about replacing the spindle, he replied no to a replacement and said to send it in for repair. After all the waiting I decided to just purchase a new one and waited for it to come. The very first rocket I pressed I was damned careful not to pass the pass line after what just happened, and it still immediately got stuck." Combined with the picture, I got the impression he's saying the rammer is stuck on the spindle, and that it happened because there's stuff caked around the inside of the rammer hole, making it bottom out before the no pass line is reached.
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