Bp based strontium stars? Will that work?

[PyroGb]

Since I last posted I found a way to get both strontium carbonate and potacium perchlorate (in the form of a drain cleaner my friend told me about😅 and while looking at compositions to use my new found supplies I kept combing across comps that use red gum and Sheilach, but tell me if this is wrong my brain goes strait to “why can’t you just make bp type stuff with Strontium?

something like 

63%kclo4

37%SrCo3

8% charcoal

2%dextrin

 

[cmjlab]

Try it, see what happens, that's how I learn.  Avoid Ammonium and Chlorate contamination,  keep batches small to avoid injury from unwanted chemical interactions (usually in the form of heating up / which is safer when the mass is smaller to avoid enough heat for autoignition), and test from a safe distance in case you accidentally make a quasi-flash powder.

[CHNO]

70% KClO4

15% SrCO3

15% Charcoal

+2% Dextrin

Edited January 14 by CHNO

[PyroGb]

Ok I’ll try it btw CHNO have you tried that comp?

[AustralianPyromaniac]

Your comp, as well as CHNO's, has no free chlorine. Relying on the Sr emission is not ideal, SrCl is much stronger. As I think I mentioned on another post of yours, Sr does at least emit red, so it is possible, compared to Cu and Ba which only emit correctly with Cl. A chlorine donor is recommended in all comps baed on KClO3/4, and pretty much required when using KClO4, which does not release its chlorine into the flame to any real degree. KClO3 releases more Cl, and much more if combined with some fuels, sulfur primarily. If you do not have any chlorine donors on hand, even binding the comp with PVC cement rather than water/ dextrin should improve it a lot.

Carbonates are flame inhibitors, 15% should be considered a maximum for all nonoxidising colorants unless the intention is to slow the comp down. If the salts is in nitrate or chlorate form, where they can serve double duty, this limit doesn't matter. 

Regarding fuel choice, shellac and redgum are quite similar - complex organic molecules that burn with high flame temperature and "cleanly" due to the hydrogen and oxygen in their structure. Shellac is not great with KClO4, but ideal with KClO3. There are additional factors that make them ideal for use beyond just this. The main factor limiting the use of charcoal and other high-carbon fuels is the generation of carbon (soot) particles in the flame, which glow orange, markedly decreasing color purity. Charcoal also burns very fast, but this can be managed more so than the other issue, which is inherent to the fuel. Lactose is a widely available option you might want to consider. Or just follow any of the existing formula and use redgum/ phenolic, which is a synthetic resin with similar properties. 

What drain cleaner contains perchlorate?? I really cannot believe that.

[PyroGb]

17 hours ago, AustralianPyromaniac said:

Your comp, as well as CHNO's, has no free chlorine. Relying on the Sr emission is not ideal, SrCl is much stronger. As I think I mentioned on another post of yours, Sr does at least emit red, so it is possible, compared to Cu and Ba which only emit correctly with Cl. A chlorine donor is recommended in all comps baed on KClO3/4, and pretty much required when using KClO4, which does not release its chlorine into the flame to any real degree. KClO3 releases more Cl, and much more if combined with some fuels, sulfur primarily. If you do not have any chlorine donors on hand, even binding the comp with PVC cement rather than water/ dextrin should improve it a lot.

Carbonates are flame inhibitors, 15% should be considered a maximum for all nonoxidising colorants unless the intention is to slow the comp down. If the salts is in nitrate or chlorate form, where they can serve double duty, this limit doesn't matter. 

Regarding fuel choice, shellac and redgum are quite similar - complex organic molecules that burn with high flame temperature and "cleanly" due to the hydrogen and oxygen in their structure. Shellac is not great with KClO4, but ideal with KClO3. There are additional factors that make them ideal for use beyond just this. The main factor limiting the use of charcoal and other high-carbon fuels is the generation of carbon (soot) particles in the flame, which glow orange, markedly decreasing color purity. Charcoal also burns very fast, but this can be managed more so than the other issue, which is inherent to the fuel. Lactose is a widely available option you might want to consider. Or just follow any of the existing formula and use redgum/ phenolic, which is a synthetic resin with similar properties. 

What drain cleaner contains perchlorate?? I really cannot believe that.

Thanks as for you question 🤦‍♂️I’m dumb it’s potacium permangante 

https://www.farmandfleet.com/products/205795-filter-mate-potassium-permanganate.html?blaintm_source=google&blaintm_medium=pla&gad_source=4&gclid=CjwKCAiAzJOtBhALEiwAtwj8trkR1YpeVS3sX-TiUvgTYNiTCiCswozSZDBpMwNj03JcNrj-HrrD3BoC2g0QAvD_BwE 

as for a Clorine doner can you just use clorine?? Not sure tell me if it’s useles but I’ll try it😁

[AustralianPyromaniac]

Chlorine is a gas, how can you add a gas to a star composition? Do you mean pool chlorine? That is also a bad idea, it will react with your other chemicals probably causing spontaneous combustion, and it won't even provide any free chlorine, so it's useless. The only easily available source of a chlorine donor is PVC cement, but you live in the US so you can just buy parlon or pvc from a pyro supplier, there is no need to experiment. 

I'm all for trying new things, but you can't just experiment blindly. I think you should leave testing new things to others. If you do really want to try something new then just do some searching first, and ask here if you're still not sure.

Edited January 15 by AustralianPyromaniac

[Arthur]

All colours (except sodium yellows) need a chlorine donor. PVC, Parlon, are two examples. You use a solid that liberates chlorine in the flame (likely as a radicle or ion ) to continue to react in the flame. It's likely that a strontium and chlorine species react at high temperature and dissociate as the flame procedes.

If you did flame test colours in school chemistry you would use a wire wet with hydrochloric acid so that there would be enough chlorine put into the flame to produce the expected flame colours.

Strontium - red,

barium - green,

copper - blue,

potassium - pale purple. 

The sodium yellow comes from the excited spectral sodium d line doublet.  Sodium salts are rarely used because they often attract water.

In pyro the chlorine comes from the chlorate, perchlorate, parlon, PVC, and in the old days HCE and HCB (neither are now considered user friendly now).

This is a typical example of components in a mixture having several purposes. (Per)chlorates donate chlorine and oxygen, parlon and PVC are fuels, binders and chlorine donors.

[PyroGb]

5 hours ago, AustralianPyromaniac said:

Chlorine is a gas, how can you add a gas to a star composition? Do you mean pool chlorine? That is also a bad idea, it will react with your other chemicals probably causing spontaneous combustion, and it won't even provide any free chlorine, so it's useless. The only easily available source of a chlorine donor is PVC cement, but you live in the US so you can just buy parlon or pvc from a pyro supplier, there is no need to experiment. 

I'm all for trying new things, but you can't just experiment blindly. I think you should leave testing new things to others. If you do really want to try something new then just do some searching first, and ask here if you're still not sure.

Thanks Yes I was thinking of pool chlorine. 

[PyroGb]

4 hours ago, Arthur said:

All colours (except sodium yellows) need a chlorine donor. PVC, Parlon, are two examples. You use a solid that liberates chlorine in the flame (likely as a radicle or ion ) to continue to react in the flame. It's likely that a strontium and chlorine species react at high temperature and dissociate as the flame procedes.

If you did flame test colours in school chemistry you would use a wire wet with hydrochloric acid so that there would be enough chlorine put into the flame to produce the expected flame colours.

Strontium - red,

barium - green,

copper - blue,

potassium - pale purple. 

The sodium yellow comes from the excited spectral sodium d line doublet.  Sodium salts are rarely used because they often attract water.

In pyro the chlorine comes from the chlorate, perchlorate, parlon, PVC, and in the old days HCE and HCB (neither are now considered user friendly now).

This is a typical example of components in a mixture having several purposes. (Per)chlorates donate chlorine and oxygen, parlon and PVC are fuels, binders and chlorine donors.

Thanks😊  I knew going into this that clorine Doners  were a thing but was still kinda fuzzy on them  I’ll look into getting some pvc or other clorine doners.

[CHNO]

Calculated with PVC:

62% KClO4

13% SrCO3

14% PVC

7% Charcoal

4% Dextrin

 

[PyroGb]

Ok this is a long shot but I did some reading and I found a previous thread that was asking about useing pvc pipe for stars, the general consensus was no it won’t work due to impurities and plain pvc pipe is only like 20-30% clorine. But nobody on the thread ever mentioned C-PVC or Clorinated PVC (sometimes called I-PEX)

clorinated pvc unlike normal contains 60-70 % clorine and was recently taken out of mainstream construction due to brittleness but it is still sold at local hardwear stores I will try to get my hands on some and let you know how it goes.

[AustralianPyromaniac]

CPVC pipe will not work. It also contains CaCO3 to make the pipe white, the star colour will be orange. The chlorine content is really quite similar, about 10% more in CPVC, your numbers are off, PVC is around 55%.  

What goal exactly are you trying to achieve with all these experiments?? 

OTC chlorine donors, only PVC cement is viable. The second best choice is probably saran wrap, but it is uncommon these days except in commercial settings - it is also hard to effectively powder. PVC dry blend resin is somewhat available. A few other options exist but are far worse; either harder to source or work poorly. 

You should direct your energy to sourcing chemicals known to work,  not inventing new formula, when your questions clearly show you don't understand the underlying mechanisms of what you're working with. 

A SYNTHESIS AND SOURCING GUIDE TO OVER THE COUNTER PYROTECHNICS – 2nd EDITION (PUBLISHING).pdf

[PyroGb]

1 hour ago, AustralianPyromaniac said:

CPVC pipe will not work. It also contains CaCO3 to make the pipe white, the star colour will be orange. The chlorine content is really quite similar, about 10% more in CPVC, your numbers are off, PVC is around 55%.  

What goal exactly are you trying to achieve with all these experiments?? 

OTC chlorine donors, only PVC cement is viable. The second best choice is probably saran wrap, but it is uncommon these days except in commercial settings - it is also hard to effectively powder. PVC dry blend resin is somewhat available. A few other options exist but are far worse; either harder to source or work poorly. 

You should direct your energy to sourcing chemicals known to work,  not inventing new formula, when your questions clearly show you don't understand the underlying mechanisms of what you're working with. 

A SYNTHESIS AND SOURCING GUIDE TO OVER THE COUNTER PYROTECHNICS – 2nd EDITION (PUBLISHING).pdf 2.22 MB · 1 download

K thanks

[Mumbles]

First of all, under no circumstances should you ever use potassium permanganate or poor chlorinator.  This would be extremely dangerous.  

Just building off the excellent advice that AustralianPyromaniac gave you.  It will be difficult to get good colors without chlorine donors of some sort.  Red is a sort of an outlier.  Without chlorine it burns kind of redish orange.  It's not great, but it is in the right ballpark.  Besides doing more research, learning, and general familiarization with pyrotechnics, you might want to focus your efforts on simpler stars like charcoal streamers or glitters. 

There are some pathways to get good colors without extensive use of chlorine donors however, if you're having difficulty sourcing them.   I'd like to draw your attention to Hardt Sulfur Blue.

Potassium Perchlorate - 62%
Copper Oxychloride - 12%
Sulfur - 18%
Dechlorane - 4%
Dextrin - 4%

This utilizes a relative small amount of chlorine donor (dechlorane), and supplements it with a high level of sulfur to utilize some of the chlorine from the perchlorate.  It should be noted that dechlorane is rather hard to come by, and other chlorine donors work fine here.  Feasibly, you could drop the dextrin and dechlorane and use PVC cement to bind the stars if all else fails.  Other colors could likely be made by substituting the copper oxychloride for strontium or barium species.

[PyroGb]

On 1/23/2024 at 8:59 AM, Mumbles said:

First of all, under no circumstances should you ever use potassium permanganate or poor chlorinator.  This would be extremely dangerous.  

Just building off the excellent advice that AustralianPyromaniac gave you.  It will be difficult to get good colors without chlorine donors of some sort.  Red is a sort of an outlier.  Without chlorine it burns kind of redish orange.  It's not great, but it is in the right ballpark.  Besides doing more research, learning, and general familiarization with pyrotechnics, you might want to focus your efforts on simpler stars like charcoal streamers or glitters. 

There are some pathways to get good colors without extensive use of chlorine donors however, if you're having difficulty sourcing them.   I'd like to draw your attention to Hardt Sulfur Blue.

Potassium Perchlorate - 62%
Copper Oxychloride - 12%
Sulfur - 18%
Dechlorane - 4%
Dextrin - 4%

This utilizes a relative small amount of chlorine donor (dechlorane), and supplements it with a high level of sulfur to utilize some of the chlorine from the perchlorate.  It should be noted that dechlorane is rather hard to come by, and other chlorine donors work fine here.  Feasibly, you could drop the dextrin and dechlorane and use PVC cement to bind the stars if all else fails.  Other colors could likely be made by substituting the copper oxychloride for strontium or barium species.

Thank you after looking at the advice given to me be several people on this fourum I’m going to just stick to bp stuff for now but when I do pick up color again I’ll hopefully be more experienced and prepared for what comes with it.🙂