Pyrogeezer Posted January 4 Posted January 4 It’s a sad day for the Nitrocellulose fuse lacquer users. The company who has been producing the product for over 60 years has closed its doors as of Jan.1st of this new year. Due to government regulation, the owners of the company have decided to call it quits. We just received the last 8-55 gallon drums from the company of this fine Fuse Dope “which is of a very specific formula and process” used by the fireworks industry for many years. We were lucky enough to purchase the proprietary formula and processing for the product and will be manufacturing it but only for our American Visco Fuse products. There are Chinese sources of the NC lacquer but as usual it is inferior in several respects and is not suitable for our products.
ThrownBiscuit Posted January 4 Posted January 4 Of course, it would be due to government regulation. If you truly want something loused up, get government involved. 1
TXpyro Posted January 7 Posted January 7 So this "fuse dope" isn't just a mixture of nitrocellulose and acetone? There's more to it?
Arthur Posted January 7 Posted January 7 While that may a generic formula I suspect that the nature of the NC matters and the precise mixture of solvents matter dramatically.
Richtee Posted January 7 Posted January 7 6 hours ago, TXpyro said: So this "fuse dope" isn't just a mixture of nitrocellulose and acetone? There's more to it? Well, as posted elsewhere, the guy making hundreds of miles of fuse a year was buying the mix, and does not wanna have to make it. Sounds a little more complex than it seems.
Arthur Posted January 7 Posted January 7 It's highly likely that the NC lacquer used is 75% volatile organics (Acetone etc) which steadily come under increasing restriction for environmental reasons. It's also possible that the production of hazardous goods is less and less acceptable in today's risk averse society.
Pyrogeezer Posted January 7 Author Posted January 7 To answer some of the questions posted: The company I work for is a large Fireworks manufacture, importer, exporter wholesaler etc. Their business is pyrotechnics, not chemical manufacturing. We had to get back into making our own black powder again since Goex had their problem. The're back up and running but cannot yet supply us with the blends of powder we need so we had no choice in that respect. Imported powders were inconsistent in the burn rates and need to be adjusted and blended with other powders, in order to keep it consistent with our requirements. It's much easier just to make our own again. As for the Fuse Dope, (Pyro Nitrocellulose), it is a proprietary formula and has been the standard in the commercial pyrotechnics business for over 60 years or more. It is also used in several other pyro products and processes other than fuse. Unfortunately the only company that manufactured this formula is now closed. It's not just Ping-Pong balls or nitrocellulose based rifle powder dissolved in acetone by any means. There are several different solvents used, alcohols, acitates, plasterers, elastomers, surfactants etc. This formula was developed many years ago specifically for the use in the pyrotechnics industry. It's not anything like the lacquer you can buy in a paint supply store. At the present time we use about 2,000 gallons per year just on the fuse alone and are planning to install another fuse line of 3 Visco machines in the near future which will increase our consumption significantly. We do have a chemical tolling company willing to produce it for us. Below is a picture of a sample they made for us in their lab for our testing. There is an amber tracer in the sample that we requested in order to follow the absorption capabilities and rate into the woven cotton fabric surrounding the powder core. It is normally water clear after manufacturing which can then be tinted to any color desired. If kept in a tightly closed container, it has an almost indefinite shelf life other than a very slight increase in viscosity which is easily adjusted.
cmjlab Posted January 7 Posted January 7 That is some nice looking NC lacquer. When I do get around to making more NC (I ran out of stabilizer), it always produces clear to slightly cloudy lacquer as you describe their product usually consisting of. I would have though the addition of plasticizers would make it cloudy though. I appreciate you sharing, it's always neat to see how the pros do things and how they differ from hobbyists (other than quantity of course). 1
cmjlab Posted January 10 Posted January 10 (edited) Pyrogeezer, now that I recall reading in one of these threads you said water or moisture in the NC cotton makes the lacquer cloudy or opaque - that makes sense. I tried making NC powderby exploiting the cloudiness that forms when the NC is still wet. I dissolved a pound of NC cotton into acetone to make a thick clear cold molasses viscosity lacquer. Then I don't recall if I used water, or alcohol and water, but poured some lacquer in a large mason jar, then added water or water / alcohol, and shook it for quite a while letting the NC powder crash out of solution in a fine small particles. Once dried it would cake up, but could be broken up into a powder that was easy to store. I didn't care for the process though because I walked away feeling I lost a bunch somehow (mainly because the large package of NC cotton, was now a much smaller looking amount that fit into a normal mason jar). It was in actuality, not much less than I started with. I should try it again sometime, because it was convenient for storage, and it seemed to store better with much less break down in storage than the cotton form of NC did. I also think it's safer to process (though I have no scientific proof), because like the industrial manufacture process, you are breaking the fibers to let the stabilizer get to as much surface area as possible. Anyway, the cloudiness comment reminded me of that and figured I'd share in case someone else decides to try and make "NC" powder for some reason. Edited January 10 by cmjlab Forgot to credit the process. I don't recall who / where I found bits of this concept from, it may have been a patent I read, but not my original idea. It was just a process that ended up working for me. 1
Pyrogeezer Posted January 10 Author Posted January 10 On 1/7/2024 at 12:01 PM, Arthur said: It's highly likely that the NC lacquer used is 75% volatile organics (Acetone etc) which steadily come under increasing restriction for environmental reasons. It's also possible that the production of hazardous goods is less and less acceptable in today's risk averse society. 1 hour ago, cmjlab said: Pyrogeezer, now that I recall reading in one of these threads you said water or moisture in the NC cotton makes the lacquer cloudy or opaque - that makes sense. I tried making NC powderby exploiting the cloudiness that forms when the NC is still wet. I dissolved a pound of NC cotton into acetone to make a thick clear cold molasses viscosity lacquer. Then I don't recall if I used water, or alcohol and water, but poured some lacquer in a large mason jar, then added water or water / alcohol, and shook it for quite a while letting the NC powder crash out of solution in a fine small particles. Once dried it would cake up, but could be broken up into a powder that was easy to store. I didn't care for the process though because I walked away feeling I lost a bunch somehow (mainly because the large package of NC cotton, was now a much smaller looking amount that fit into a normal mason jar). It was in actuality, not much less than I started with. I should try it again sometime, because it was convenient for storage, and it seemed to store better with much less break down in storage than the cotton form of NC did. I also think it's safer to process (though I have no scientific proof), because like the industrial manufacture process, you are breaking the fibers to let the stabilizer get to as much surface area as possible. Anyway, the cloudiness comment reminded me of that and figured I'd share in case someone else decides to try and make "NC" powder for some reason. cmjtab; Thanks for sharing your experience in making Nitro powder. This is the only way we learn is through trial and era! Nitrocellulose is an variable material both in the manufacture of and also when processed into a liquid form. (Lacquer). I have never tried to powder it because we use all of our NC fiber in coatings and the chips we purchase dissolve in our media readly. As I mentioned, we usually process the material fairly quickly 2 to 3 months. If we do have any left over we just safely burn it. We dont chance using aged fiber in the lacquer processing. We don't have to worry about that now, we have a company that is going to manufacture it for us in the future. Thanks, Pyrogeezer
Richtee Posted January 20 Posted January 20 On 1/7/2024 at 1:04 PM, Pyrogeezer said: Below is a picture of a sample they made for us in their lab for our testing. There is an amber tracer in the sample that we requested in order to follow the absorption capabilities and rate into the woven cotton fabric surrounding the powder core. Christ...pour me a shot of that... Wooo! Bottoms up! 1
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