Law clarification

[FieryCreations]

As far as federal law and BATFE is concerned, you do not need an explosives license to mfg fireworks for personal use, correct? 


I read an article on SkyLighter saying that they consider fireworks explosives but also state that you don't need an FEL to create them. They reference a letter from ATF but it's nearly 30 years old. Is this still valid? Are there any caveats or started limits to keep it legal? I guess I'm confused since flash powder is a high explosive. I don't even want to mess flash but am I understanding that it is legal to mfg high explosives if it's just for fireworks? I'm trying to get my low explosives FEL, but from what it sounds like that still wouldn't cover flash powder.

Can someone clarify this for me? I keep seeing "Pyro license" mentioned here but I'm not sure what exactly that is or how to get one. Thanks.

 

 

ETA: I also see the storage requirements are the same regardless of having an FEL or not. Are the storage requirements referring to components such as KNO3, sulfur, etc. or only required once they are mixed? I am currently building a type IV storage magazine that is spark resistant just to be safe, but wonder if it's even technically required if nothing is mixed. 

Edited December 8, 2023 by FieryCreations
added

[Richtee]

I can’t imagine it’s required if not mixed, as you can buy that stuff off the shelf. When I had a run-in, they only took 3 3” shells I had built, leaving me with a fair assortment of metals, fuels, oxidizers, colorants, hemis, tubing, ball mill, etc.

Edited December 8, 2023 by Richtee

[FieryCreations]

Anyone know if there is some sort of exemption for creating small amounts of HE for "scientific purposes" without and FEL? I keep seeing people on Youtube uploading them synthesizing things like TNT and RDX, and I imagine they aren't licensed. One guy said it's legal until you make it into a "device" but I'm pretty sure that's not how it works... But I must be missing something. Flash powder is HE and that doesn't seem to be an issue to make on a small scale...?

Edited December 14, 2023 by FieryCreations

[Arthur]

Scientific purposes usually require being (at) an academic institution at graduate level where said manufacture is a necessary part of some greater project, and there is a means of safe disposal for materials no longer wanted.

[FieryCreations]

5 hours ago, Arthur said:

Scientific purposes usually require being (at) an academic institution at graduate level where said manufacture is a necessary part of some greater project, and there is a means of safe disposal for materials no longer wanted.

I'm guessing the guys in their garage making TNT while drinking a beer are in fact, not at a university. 😂

[cmjlab]

On 12/8/2023 at 2:25 PM, Richtee said:

I can’t imagine it’s required if not mixed, as you can buy that stuff off the shelf. When I had a run-in, they only took 3 3” shells I had built, leaving me with a fair assortment of metals, fuels, oxidizers, colorants, hemis, tubing, ball mill, etc.

Out of curiosity, did they tell you why they took the 3" shells?  Was it improper storage, county/state laws prohibiting it, or some other reason?

[FieryCreations]

Man I'd give anything for a definite answer on this. After a ton of searching I found this directly on the ATF website.

Persons manufacturing explosives for their own personal, non-business use only (e.g., personal target practice) are not required to have a federal explosives license or permit under 27 CFR, Part 555. However, a federal explosives license or permit is required to receive or transport mixed binary explosives, such as transporting mixed exploding targets to a shooting range. Persons prohibited under 27 CFR Part 555.26 from possessing explosive materials may not possess mixed binary explosives such as exploding targets or flash powder.

Does this seriously mean anyone can make whatever explosives they want like TNT/RDX as long as it's for non business use? Is this how they keep doing it on Youtube? 

[Richtee]

18 hours ago, cmjlab said:

Out of curiosity, did they tell you why they took the 3" shells?  Was it improper storage, county/state laws prohibiting it, or some other reason?

My guess is improper storage. If I’da been home when they came, I SUPPOSE I could have walked out and shot them?  But then would have violated the “holidays/special occasions only” thing. Then the county prolly WOULD have fined me.

[cmjlab]

9 hours ago, FieryCreations said:

Man I'd give anything for a definite answer on this. After a ton of searching I found this directly on the ATF website.

Persons manufacturing explosives for their own personal, non-business use only (e.g., personal target practice) are not required to have a federal explosives license or permit under 27 CFR, Part 555. However, a federal explosives license or permit is required to receive or transport mixed binary explosives, such as transporting mixed exploding targets to a shooting range. Persons prohibited under 27 CFR Part 555.26 from possessing explosive materials may not possess mixed binary explosives such as exploding targets or flash powder.

Does this seriously mean anyone can make whatever explosives they want like TNT/RDX as long as it's for non business use? Is this how they keep doing it on Youtube? 

Thats federal law. It's the state / local laws which are far more restrictive on possession, use, manufacture.  If the local law doesn't allow it, then federal law won't protect you from the consequences, which is why when applying for a license it will be denied if your local area won't allow it.

[FieryCreations]

6 hours ago, cmjlab said:

Thats federal law. It's the state / local laws which are far more restrictive on possession, use, manufacture.  If the local law doesn't allow it, then federal law won't protect you from the consequences, which is why when applying for a license it will be denied if your local area won't allow it.

The only state laws I can find pertain to creating actual devices with explosives such as grenades, pipe bombs, etc. which is also illegal federally. Nothing about manufacturing just explosives compounds.

I doubt I'll ever do this because I realized even if it isn't illegal, I can still be arrested and have to spend tens of thousands of dollars to prove it wasn't. What random officer isn't going to believe it's "totally legal to make this TNT." Probably not worth the risk but now I'm just really curious if it is technically legal. 

[Mumbles]

The binary mix thing is specifically directed at things like Tannerite.  You can mix and use it on site without any real repercussions usually.  If you cause property damage or are acting like an idiot, it opens up a whole can of worms and stops being viewed as a shooting target, and starts being viewed as a destructive device.  Some of this unfortunately stops being black and white laws, and opens up some interpretation from authorities if you raise too much suspicion or start causing issues.  

My understanding of the actual federal law is that without a license you can legally manufacture your own pyrotechnics.  It needs to be shot or disposed on site within 24hr.  Where the law and regulations come in is for storage and transportation.  You cannot transport devices or probably what would be looked at as "live components" like stars, BP, etc. without a license.  There are some exceptions to this, but if you made it assume they largely won't apply.  If you are manufacturing pyrotechnics without a license, you are still subject to all regulations involving storage, set back distances, and likely record keeping that someone who does have a license or permit has to adhere to to be within the letter of the law.  As I said previously, there is an unfortunate amount of subjectivity given to these topics.  A local police officer who is not well informed may try to make your life extremely difficult.  Even if things turn out well in the end, it may still be a hassle and potentially expensive.  

Unfortunately, for people who do become federally licensed, you are going to be subject to the interpretation of your local agent who does inspections.  There's not really a uniform set of guidelines they all follow.  Most of them actually are quite reasonable and will work with you to solve any issues they find or perceive.  

[FieryCreations]

For anyone interested. Apparently, as far as federal laws goes, it is ok for those without an FEL to manufacture HE so long as they are not using it for any type of business, do not transport it off of their property, use it or destroy it they same day, and make no more than 50 pounds. 

For fireworks, you need an FEL to do anything if you buy BP. If you make the Bp yourself, it apparently makes you exempt from needing anything (other than still needing proper storage). 

Edited December 21, 2023 by FieryCreations