Question for Chemists - Bismuth Tetroxide / Pentoxide

[cmjlab]

I want to try Ellern's Exploding Smokes formulas, specifically one which calls for Bismuth Tetroxide (not Trioxide). I don't see any place you can purchase it, and there is very little information that pops up where us non PhD peeps look for info! :-)

 

TLDR #1; Can I make Bismuth Tetroxide if I suspend Bi(2)03 in a hot dilute solution of NaOH, and add Ammonium Persulfate, and continue to heat until completion of oxidation? Or would I get the Pentoxide (which supposedly decomposes at 20°C or 100°C to Tetroxide)? Are there any dangerous reactions possible (other than hot fluid, caustic burns, and chlorine gas)?

 

TLDR# 2: Would a Bi(2)03 suspended in hot KOH solution oxidize the Bi(2)03 to the Pentoxide or Tetroxide state(s)?

 

Info /Ref Material Found:

 

What I do find are a few theoretical synthesis to create what would be described as a mixture of Tri/Tetroxide/Pent- Oxides of Bismuth.

 

In the Handbook of Inorganic Chemicals (Pradyot Patnaik, Ph.D.), a few reactions pathways from Di-Bismuth Trioxide to the Tetroxide and Pentoxide states. They include:

- Oxidation with ammonium persulfate and dilute caustic soda gives bismuth tetroxide, Bi2O4.

- The same product can be obtained by using other oxidizing agents such as potassium ferricyanide and concentrated caustic potash solution.

- Electrolysis of bismuth trioxide in hot concentrated alkali solution gives a scarlet red precipitate of bismuth pentoxide.

 

Lastly, a gentleman on FW.com quoted an old chemistry book that says Bismuth Trioxide in a hot dilute alkali solution bath, oxidized by chlorine, would produce a Bismuth Tetroxide (in a scarlet red color - which according to textbooks is actually a mixture of Pentoxide and Tetraoxide and Trioxides)

[cmjlab]

**Id like to avoid discovering a random explosive like Bismuth metal and perchloric acid**

[WayneJ]

Reference to the tetroxide is easy to find on a basic search, and it can probably even be found for sale somewhere, but the price would likely prohibit its use in pyro. As you note, the pentoxide decomposes at room temp. Making tetroxide sounds like something you really don't want to do without a chemistry background and some not inexpensive equipment. Pretty good discussion of all this on FW.com, insofar as smokes, bismuth oxides, thermites, etc.. While trying the original composition so as to compare it with a newer version as Mike S. suggests is desirable, it's likely not practical.

[cmjlab]

I'd be curious where you found much reference to the Tetroxide on Google. There is a Wikipedia listing, a pubchem with no information, and a couple you tube videos of a half baked backyard chemist attempting but failing to make it.

 

I am looking to find out safety concerns from people with a modern chemistry background like Mumbles, to verify that if I follow the procedure Mike S. Provided, I don't result in some explosive or incredibly sensitive mixture that is not feasible to handle, nor easily disposed of.

 

Thanks for your input.

[RuthlessIridium]

Experimenting with new unknown substances and / or procedures is always risky, but done correctly with the right precautions, not that big of a deal.

 

You can try anything out, given that it's on a small scale, even if anything was to go wrong the consequences wouldn't be that bad.

 

Since there's little to no info on pure Bismuth tetroxide, what are the chances that someone actually synthesized before and used it for pyro? I dont think its very likely. Most probably it's a mixture of different bismuth oxides coexisting together that happen to be useful for whatever pyrotechnic device you're making.

 

I'd say try the methodes you've already found but keep it below 500mg quantities and be careful, easy.

[Crazy Swede]

cmjilab, as I tried to hint on Fireworking my impression is that the patent that Ellern quoted is incorrect. Most probably ordinary Bi2O3 was meant to be used.

 

Even if you buy it or succeed in making it yourself, there would be no difference in the smoke cloud produced.

[Arthur]

There is a method on prepchem but it's suggested on a 20g scale and yields 6g so simply it's not viable for just a small test. As it's possibly unstable when heated be exceptionally cautious in pyro -where getting hot is normal.

 

IMO there are enough comps without risking unknown chemistry.

[cmjlab]

cmjilab, as I tried to hint on Fireworking my impression is that the patent that Ellern quoted is incorrect. Most probably ordinary Bi2O3 was meant to be used.

 

Even if you buy it or succeed in making it yourself, there would be no difference in the smoke cloud produced.

Swede-I apreciate it. I had been hoping to catch Mumbles's thoughts as well. I went ahead and tried it, but ended up with a brown sludge that I dried out and was still brown.

 

I did try the Bismuth Trioxide and Copper oxide mixture and you were correct that it produced a billowing yellowish smoke cloud, but I'm assuming that I didn't have those proportions in the correct ratio for a thick yellow . What stood out to me is that like you mentioned on FW is the deeper less sharp report it creates.

 

I'll have to try again and adjust the ratios after work today.