Dragon eggs problems

[pyrogenius007]

Hello everyone,

 

I have made a batch of dragon eggs. After drying them I tested them and they were fine. They gave out a loud sharp bang. The problem started after I primed them, they just do not give out the loud report like the unprimed ones. They just sizzle or some of them just burn with a bright white flame.

 

I have primed them with two coats of meal powder mixed with some coarse magnalium. The stars were wetted with d.m. water to which about 3% potassium dichromate was added. They were dried for two days. The temperature here is around 26 degrees Celsius.

 

I do not have access to smokeless powder, I made my own N.C. lacquer with home made nitrocellulose. It was made with white fuming nitric acid and 98% sulfuric acid. The proportion of the acids was 400ml. HNO3 & 400 ml. H2SO4. to which I added 30 grams of surgical cotton.

 

The composition of the D.E is Bismuth Trioxide 71, Black copper Oxide 14, Mg.al. 10, Fine atomized aluminum ( -300 mesh) 5. This was mixed with 10% N.C. dissolved in acetone. The N.C. was kneaded into the composition, cut into roughly 5 mm stars.

 

As mentioned above when unprimed they performed well, but, when primed they did not give out the loud report. What could be the problem ?

 

Regards,

 

P.G.

 

 

[Zumber]

Is your stars dried properly?it usually takes 3 days to dry stars.after completely drying of star test it in star gun or make small 1 inch mine and test it.26 degree temp seems to take 4 days to dry your stars?whats the thickness of prime?

[cmjlab]

If your dragon eggs worked before prime, then I would initially assume that it has to do with your prime.

 

All the Crackle I've made has been with homemade NC. As long as it fully dissolved in acetone, then it is probably NOT your problem.

 

The funny thing about Crackle is they seem sensitive to the right balance of prime without overdoing it. You need them to ignite around the entire surface, do so rapidly, and burn hot enough to start the snoulder phase. Too thin of a prime layer - maybe only one side ignites // too thick, maybe the nitrates bleed into the Crackle surface and ruin the reaction altogether.

 

Sounds to me, that the nitrates are leaching into the surface of the Crackle granule - NC doesn't "waterproof" the surface, there are still porous areas water can seep into. Some people coated them in wax then primed them and had success. Id try just a thin layer of a b.p. prime with silicon added OR use a KCL04 based 1st prime, finished with just a meal dust later prime coat.

[WayneJ]

Did you add 10% NC w/w to the crackle mix or just use enough 10% NC lacquer to bind it all together? I've been using low bismuth (6-8%) crackle in matrix comets, but it is 12% NC (just NC cotton, no double base or anything like that) by weight and acetone bound. Holds up in water/dextrin bound comets. With standard crackle (71/14/10/5 is pretty much that) using more NC binder, or coating dried granules with NC/acetone before any water wetting might help. Also try using a hotter prime. Monocapa is a good general purpose prime that lights most stuff.

BTW, congrats on making your own NC! It's crazy how some stuff is available (like NC of all sorts where I'm at) but you have fuming nitric acid (I haven't seen since college days) and can make some NC for yourself. Did it myself many years ago, just to see if I could.

Edited November 5, 2023 by WayneJ

[pyrogenius007]

Hello,

 

Thanks to all for having given me your thoughts as to what could have possibly gone wrong. I too think that the problem is with the prime. I followed the instructions regarding priming as per what was mentioned in the article which contained both the composition as well as the priming method.

 

I tried coating the eggs with wax. I melted some candle wax and put some eggs in them. They soaked up the molten wax. After drying it for a day I tried them out, the result was the same. They just burned out without any sound or crackle. I next tried out another prime consisting of kclo4, mg.al and red gum. I do not have any red gum so I used shellac instead. The article mentioned that the prime is to be wetted with alcohol or nc lacquer. I made a solution of n.c. lacquer, coated some eggs with it and then coated with them with the prime. After drying them for 2 days I tried them, the result was the same, only this time they gave out a faint sizzling and crackling sound. They did not perform as they should.

 

Anybody who has faced the same problem and successfully found a solution for it may please share their methods and help me out. Further if there are any articles on priming dragon eggs with tips and suggestions please share it with me. Going by the initial results i.e before priming I thought that all was fine and made a big batch. As you all know bismuth is quite expensive, not being able to use them because the prime has failed is quite disappointing.

 

Regards,

 

P.G.

[cmjlab]

What mesh is your Mg/Al in the prime?

I don't believe shellac plays well with KCL04, and you'd want a good hot prime, do you have phenolic resin (instead of red gum)?

 

Not to criticize, but I'm a firm believer in trying the formula as written before trying to make substitutions. The DE prime I found and used was KCL04 with Potassium Dichromate and Silicon along with another fuel like resin or red gum. It's hard to fix something if you don't have all the original things that helped the author be successful, especially when making something like DE which are finicky to small changes.

 

Good luck, hopefully someone will be able to help you out.

[MadMat]

I not an expert with Dragon Egg comp.s, but have worked with time rain formulas quite a bit, so.... I know metals, both composition and particle size are rather critical to time rain and probably also with DE. Maybe adding that Mg/Al to your prime is causing problems. I have always made micro-stars and put them into a matrix star and never needed to prime DE or time rain. Just my thoughts

[pyrogenius007]

Hello,

 

Thanks for your valuable advice. I will keep in mind all the suggestions given. As correctly pointed out by cmjlab the prime composition was arrived at after careful research and probably with some trial and error. Substitution of material should be done after properly understanding the properties of the proposed substitutes. Red gum unfortunately is not available in India. Phenolic resin is sold for industrial use, the moq. for it is around 50 kgs. which is far above the quantity I require.

 

I am thinking of coating the eggs with n.c. lacquer, letting it dry and then try to put on a layer of plain meal powder. Hope this works.

 

Regards,

 

P.G.

[Zumber]

As I do live in India and I am preparing crackling stars both for fountain and for shells for more than 15 years It still works fine for me,only now in our country magnelium quality has degraded. 5 years before it was arriving as 50 :50 ratio or 60:40 ratio but as prices of magnesium metal goes very high, quality of magnelium is going poor,I believe it is coming now as 80:20 aluminium magnesium ratio,this is the reason why strobe stars cracker stars are facing problem.

For cracker I use good quality commercial nc laquar. It is important for crackling stars to have correct consistency of nc lacquar.If NC laquar is to thick consistency Add acetone in it and make it thinner. Use commercial grade lead tetraoxide (other lead tetraoxide is impure) I have never coated crackling stars with wax and never used hot prime,Insted I used slow burning charcoal streamer stars composition with 5 percent barium nitrate and 5 percent 200 mesh magnelium.

High amount of charcoal, Barium nitrate and magnelium gives sufficient heat and it always works for me. If you used too thicker consistency of NC for stars then it only works in fountain not in shell. Also It is very risky to strore moderately dried crackling stars coated with bp prime. During night never keep undried or moderately dried coated or uncoated stars in a bag or in container Insed spread it in paper sheet If it is not dried.lots of auto ignition of such stars Have occred. After drying crackling stars for 4 days in sun then it can be stored in bag.If moderately dried or not completely dried, during night time spread it in paper sheet to form thin layer and good ventilation and dry It in next day In sunshine repeat this process for 4 days till stars dried fully. Here I am attatching ckackling star fountain video.

Edited November 9, 2023 by swapnilsutar1988

[SharkWhisperer]

I am thinking of coating the eggs with n.c. lacquer, letting it dry and then try to put on a layer of plain meal powder. Hope this works. .

.

No, please don't. That won't work well. You'll have a hard NC lacquer shell that won't allow your prime to transmit heat through it quickly. NC burns like lightning in high-surface-area formats like guncotton, and explodes nicely with high-surface-area formats (smokeless powder) under pressure, but will be a barrier to flame transfer as a hard solid shell around your star where it will burn extremely slowly. Easy to understand if you take NC lacquer and pour it into a mold to make a chunk of pure NC. It'll burn, though pretty damned slowly at atmospheric pressure. For fireworking, NC makes a very nice flammable binder and carrier (e.g., priming fuse ends) but in solidified format burns slower than even crappy BP pressed to similar density.

 

There are proven primes for DEs, hashed over in depth in other threads on this forum. Please try what's been proven time again before starting from zero. Plain BP meal powder alone isn't sufficient to ignite DEs, and made even worse by trying to burn through a layer of slow-burning solid NC...

 

I use a two-step prime, modified slightly from others' proven formulations, with 100% success. A hot perc-based inner prime with a little metal (and Si), and a BP-based outer prime that catches fire fast. No NC in either. And definitely no flame transfer-inhibiting NC coating on the eggs before priming. That NC shell will work against you...

[pyrogenius007]

Hello,

 

Thanks Swapnilsutar and SharkWhisperer for your valuable advice. I will keep your advice in mind when I am making dragon eggs especially when priming them.

 

Swapnilsutar what is the composition of the prime you used for the eggs. Can you share the exact formula of it. Did you wet the eggs with plain water or did you add dichromate to it ? can you share the exact method you used for priming. This will save me a lot of time in trial and error.

 

SharkWhisperer, thanks for your valuable input regarding NC. As I have mentioned in my post things like red gum, phenolic resin and even for that matter silicon are not available in small quantities. Red gum is not at all available in India whereas phenolic resin and silicon which are sold as industrial raw material are sold in bulk i.e 50 kgs., or so. I have to make do with whatever I can get. I make my own magnalium the same goes for NC. Lack of chemicals mentioned in original tried and tested compositions makes me try out alternatives. I have to also find out if the stuff available to me is compatible with the other chemicals mentioned in the composition. This involves a lot of trial and error which have to be done very carefully after studying the nature of the chemicals I am using. I do not want to lose my limbs or even more. I read whatever is available on the net and also some books in order to make my composition as safe as possible. In case of any doubt this forum is where I look to.

 

Regards,

 

P.G

[cmjlab]

I could be wrong, but I think Swapnilsutar is referring to using lead Trioxide based dragon eggs as cores for a charcoal streamer comp, modified with Barium Nitrate and additional metal to increase the heat they burn at and guarantee ignition of the DEs. That would certainly work well. There are a few formulas floating around if you have access to Lead Trioxide.

 

If you're trying to make DE stars (like I think you are), and not use them as cores like described above, them you might try using modified streamer comp as the star prime, but I'm betting you'd need a slightly thicker layer to ensure enough heat is generated.

 

Id also guess if youre using the same Mg/Al as you used in the DE stars, then it's probably too course to be much use in a prime. Id not want to advise milling the Mg/Al as that carries lots of other risks, but if you have a way to further reduce a small amount to use in the prime that may help.

 

The K-Dichromate I used in the prime comp was only to reduce the ignition temp of the KCLO4, and not necessarily to protect the Mg/Al from a reaction.

Edited November 10, 2023 by cmjlab

[pyrogenius007]

Hello,

 

Thanks to all for their precious inputs regarding priming of dragon eggs. I will start with the long process of trial and error while keeping in mind all the suggestions given by members of this forum.

 

Hopefully I will be able to get the right method and composition with which to prime my dragon eggs. I will post the results hopefully with a video so as to give a better idea as to how the eggs perform.

 

Regards,

 

P.G.

[MicroGram]

I just made the exact same crackle formula as you. Primed with FencePost prime and they ignite just fine.

 

For prime I used alcohol/water 50/50 and about a 1mm layer of FP. Some of my granules turned out too large from the initial granulation and I used 325 mesh magnalium which is too fine, but i wanted to test the formula anyhow. Looking forward to trying with some coarser magnalium when i get the chance.

 

 

 

 

[cmjlab]

@MicroGram: Those turned out pretty good!

[MicroGram]

Thanks!

 

Really looking forward to trying it with coarser magnalium.

 

I made a cpl hundred grams of the comp. I tried to shoot a cpl tablespoons from a small mine this afternoon. It all went up so fast it made more of a loud, angry roar then anything that could be remotely described as crackle.

 

Kind of a neat effect actually. Prob has some use somewhere, but not really what im looking for.

Edited November 18, 2023 by MicroGram

[pyrogenius007]

Microgram, The stars were really good. What size were your stars ? I have noticed that smaller stars burn with multiple crackles while slightly bigger ones which are 5 or 6 mm., burn with a single loud report. I plan to make smaller ones for fountains and mines and the bigger ones for shells.

Has anyone tried smaller crackle stars in shells ? at a distance of 200 m., which I presume is the maximum height for a 3" shell how loud is the crackling sound ?

 

Thanks,

 

P.G

[MicroGram]

Microgram, The stars were really good. What size were your stars ? I have noticed that smaller stars burn with multiple crackles while slightly bigger ones which are 5 or 6 mm., burn with a single loud report. I plan to make smaller ones for fountains and mines and the bigger ones for shells.

Has anyone tried smaller crackle stars in shells ? at a distance of 200 m., which I presume is the maximum height for a 3" shell how loud is the crackling sound ?

 

Thanks,

 

P.G

Mine came out too large for the fine magnalium i used and were quite varied. For fine magnalium i think you want quite small chunks. This page has lots of tips/info regarding dragon eggs. Hope it helps!

 

http://www.wichitabuggywhip.com/fireworks/dragonseggs.html#problem

Edited November 22, 2023 by MicroGram

[Zumber]

 

Has anyone tried smaller crackle stars in shells ? at a distance of 200 m., which I presume is the maximum height for a 3" shell how loud is the crackling sound ?

 

Thanks,

 

P.G

Even if granules are smaller,in a shell stars do not perform one by one....and sound of star isnt a sound of single crackling star it is sound of stars that are ignited; burned at that instant. With a delay of 2 to 3 second all stars finishes its funtion.

I heard sound like bijli crackers or garland burning in ground.

[Soloserly]

On 11/10/2023 at 9:02 AM, pyrogenius007 said:

... Red gum is not at all available in India whereas phenolic resin and silicon which are sold as industrial raw material are sold in bulk i.e 50 kgs., or so. I have to make do with whatever I can get...

For what it's worth, I've entirely replace red gum with phenolic resin in my compositions; it's cheaper, more consistent (if you have a good source), is easy to work with, and has a high fuel value.  It also bonds and dries quickly.  My only complaint is I can't stand the smell of it!  To me, it smells like aspirin tastes.  😄

[Zumber]

10 hours ago, Soloserly said:

For what it's worth, I've entirely replace red gum with phenolic resin in my compositions; it's cheaper, more consistent (if you have a good source), is easy to work with, and has a high fuel value.  It also bonds and dries quickly.  My only complaint is I can't stand the smell of it!  To me, it smells like aspirin tastes.  😄

So whats proportion do you replace red gum with phenolic resin.

1:1?

[Soloserly]

Phenolic to Red Gum fuel value ratio is 8.3 to 10 (you need 83% phenolic resin to replace red gum)

[Zumber]

Thank you.

So dou you mean to replace 10 gram of red gum I need 8.3 gram of phenolic resin? Right?

[Soloserly]

On 12/8/2023 at 11:12 PM, Zumber said:

Thank you.

So dou you mean to replace 10 gram of red gum I need 8.3 gram of phenolic resin? Right?

Exactly.  

[Zumber]

Hmmm than you..!!