Magnesium based flash powder not "making a bang"

[print118]

Do you have any knowledge on the difference between a barium nitrate and magnesium/aluminum photo flash? Which one is brighter, since I would assume the magnesium one to be, but not according to the formula by mx5kevin?

[cmjlab]

To be completely honest, I have a limited understanding on why mil comps call for Barium in their photoflash.

 

However, I do know that Barium Nitrate & Aluminum is often used for intensely bright white star / flare comps. That's why I suggested that perhaps starting with something similar to a white flare comp, play with Al particle size to figure out where it goes from fast burn to report, and back it off hair by adding more fuel to the comp.

 

For brightness, Barium Nitrate and Magnesium are used in close to 50/50 ratio, +1 extra % of PVC to shift the color spectrum to green, to create Westech Green Flash. You could drop the chlorine donor, bringing it back to bright white, and adjust the fuel to oxidizer ratio by 5% or 10% increments until it no longer creates a loud report, but still produces the white flash. (Ex. BaN03 55% : Mg ~325 45%, then 60:40, then 65:35, etc. till you get a less intense pop and bright flash.)

 

One last thing - it really depends on how you intend to use it. Photoflash in an insert will still make a "bang", just not nearly as loud as normal flash would. For example, white strobe will still pop when it flashes, just not as loud as normal flash. So you will really have to decide how you intend to use it, then start tweaking a formula to work for your needs.

 

Hopefully Mumbles can provide input if he sees this - he'd understand the chemistry / oxygen balance aspect of it.

Edited October 6, 2023 by cmjlab

[print118]

I was browsing for some nitric acid for making barium nitrate, but instead came across some magnesium nitrate. How effective would these be in replacing the barium nitrate, since I can buy the magnesium nitrate straight up. It is hygroscopic though, but maybe it could still be useful? Would it burn with comparable brightness to straight up magnesium of barium nitrate mixes?

[print118]

Just realized that I could just buy like some barium chloride and the magnesium nitrate, and make barium nitrate by reacting them together. I can also buy aluminum nitrate (pretty toxic though), zinc nitrate, iron nitrate and copper nitrate. I could use those as well, since the chloride salts of some of them are more insoluble in water, so more yield. This would circumvent the problem of making barium nitrate with diluted nitric acid. Any comments on this?

[cmjlab]

A quick look at this forum recommends Sodium Nitrate or Silver Nitrate (with silver nitrate being more cost prohibitive).

 

https://www.sciencemadness.org/smwiki/index.php/Barium_nitrate

 

Is sodium nitrate a possibility for you? Sodium contamination should be simple to avoid by exploiting solubility / temperature properties if Barium Nitrate and Sodium salts, and ice water rinses of your Barium yield.

 

 

 

I had not considered magnesium nitrate, but it looks like a feasible route from my limited knowledge - maybe someone with a chemistry background can weigh in. However going off the solubility of Barium Chloride and Magnesium Nitrate it would appear like a plausible method.

 

If nobody else weighs in, i'd probably start with solutions in hot water so that once combined, you can collect the precipitate at a certain temperature since Barium Nitrate is much less soluble in cool water than hot.

[cmjlab]

The more I think about it, and look at a solubility chart - your idea would likely work.

 

Id you can identify the stoichiometric amounts needed to drive the reaction to completion (or close to it), that would help to ensure maximum yield and less contamination from magnesium nitrate or Chloride.

 

Barium Chloride + Magnesium Nitrate (in saturated solution) would result in Barium Nitrate and Magnesium Chloride. However, since both are Barium Nitrate and Magnesium Chloride are soluble, it's likely that you would need to chill the liquid to force the Barium to precipitate out fully (you may get some crystals to precipitate at room temperature, but not much).

 

Exploiting the higher solubility of both Barium Chloride and Mg Nitrate in hot water to make the starting saturated solutions would cause more Barium Nitrate to precipitate out immediately as the solution cools to room temp - but putting it in the fridge would probably result in more coming out of solution.

 

Id still rinse your Barium Nitrate with ice water really well, since magnesium Chloride is pretty hygroscopic and would make it very difficult to dry your Barium Nitrate with it as the contaminant.

Edited October 11, 2023 by cmjlab

[print118]

Yeah, the solubility of barium nitrate is the lowest in the magnesium nitrate reaction at 0°C, so I should be able to extract it. I can also buy silver nitrate, but it is much more expensive than the other available nitrate salts, about 150€ per 100gram compared to magnesium nitrate, which is 20€ per 100g. I can also buy other nitrates, as I mentioned in my previous post. They are all comparable in price.

 

And do you have any knowledge on the brightness of magnesium nitrate on it's own, since it would be easier to use in a mix. Not sure about its properties though and I can't find much about it.

[cmjlab]

No idea, it's hygroscopic properties probably make it less useful in commercial pyrotechnics, so it hasn't been used that I'm aware of in hobby/amateur pyro either, since that's where most our practices come from.

 

But I'd guess (and it's pure speculation) that if it worked as an oxidizer, it would be white / brilliant white - yellowish white (contaminants due to its affinity for water and possible redox).

 

I did do some searches out of curiosity - the only mention I could find was Magnesium Nitrate (Mg(N03)2) or Di-nitrate (Mg(N03)6) as a liquid oxidizer in liquid propellant a long time ago. Most other uses were desiccant in Nitric acid or reactant to form other metal salts.

Edited October 13, 2023 by cmjlab

[mx5kevin]

Barium nitrate is a cheap oxidizer in Europe cheaper than KNO3. Mg(NO3)2, NaClO4, there is a reason why they are not used in pyrotechnics. There are proven compositions used by professionals. If someone deviates from this, they will have different problems. There are chemical and other compatibility incompatibilities due to which the user will realize that the purchased chemicals are unnecessary. At best case, wasting time and money. In the worst case, the person doing it will be injured, or the product will catch fire during storage. Even in the case of well-known compositions, if someone is not aware of their abilities, unpleasant surprises may come their way. The problem here is that there is no background knowledge for the professional use of proven compositions. And this is coupled with the fact that someone wants to invent completely unique solutions that are unknown in professional circles. We have the proven professional combinations of what can be mixed with what and what not and how. It cannot be deviated from. In most cases, there are serious chemical incompatibilities. No one will discover better methods than what the professionals have already discovered. And in the case of professional compositions, there is also a professional preparation method such as proper protecting of metal powders. Regardless of this, many people mix up many things at home. But those who have been doing it for a long time do not deviate from what the professionals describe about what can and cannot be done. You can only learn this by yourself, this cannot be taught by asking questions in a topic. Based on what has been described, what could be touched with the wrong way has been touched with the wrong way here in a series. One is that the power of KClO4 is underestimated here by the user. Which can release enormous power even in small amounts. This also applies if it is mixed with other oxidizers.

[mx5kevin]

I don't understand why it has to be so over complicated? If the goal is a big flash without a loud bang a paper tube is required, the bottom of which is well closed, the wall is not too thin and the top has a minimal closure. It is enough to close the top with a thin paper. Need a fast flash with not too much power. The flash powder should be filled very loosely into this without any compression. And stronger flash powder compositions should be avoided what can make intensive explosions like KClO4 or nitrates with pure finer than -400mesh magnesium. A simple KNO3 Al dark S 55 30 15 are good for this. Or 50 KNO3 25 -400mesh Mg 25 30 micron blue Al. Or this with Sulfur using a 5/4/1 ratio. It won't be like barium, but it will work. Light erupts at the top of the tube like in a volcano but fast way like a explosion without a loud sound. Strontium nitrate can also be used instead of barium nitrate, but the shine will be less good and it will be slightly reddish. From strontium and barium nitrates with aluminum and some sulfur are possible to make the fastest but not too much energetic flashes. Possible to use much more energetic compositions like NaNO3 Mg this is a yellowish Ba(NO3)2 alternative the brightest non white yellowish flash what i know. Make much more light than the Ba(NO3)2 version (see the Shimizu book) but in another frequency. Addition of roughly 30 micron aluminum for the effect is highly recommended half with dark aluminum or -400 mesh magnesium. 325 mesh Magnalium alloy (50:50) are similar than a magnesium Blue Al mixture.

Edited October 13, 2023 by mx5kevin

[print118]

Possible to use much more energetic compositions like NaNO3 Mg this is a yellowish Ba(NO3)2 alternative the brightest non white yellowish flash what i know. Make much more light than the Ba(NO3)2 version (see the Shimizu book) but in another frequency. Addition of roughly 30 micron aluminum for the effect is highly recommended half with dark aluminum or -400 mesh magnesium. 325 mesh Magnalium alloy (50:50) are similar than a magnesium Blue Al mixture.

I might experiment with making sodium nitrate for the flash, since it's much safer than trying to make the barium nitrate. Chemicals for it are also readily available, needing just copper nitrate or similar, for easiest procedure. Some testing should tell if it can flash without exploding in the small amounts I need them in. If not, then maybe I can add some inhibitor. Also testing with mixes of magnesium and aluminum with different particle sizes. As you said, the only way I can figure this is out, is with testing.

 

But if you do know, how much more energetic is the sodium nitrate mixed with aluminum, compared to barium nitrate? Is it energetic enough to make a bang, or still below that?

 

 

I don't understand why it has to be so over complicated? -- And stronger flash powder compositions should be avoided what can make intensive explosions like KClO4 or nitrates with pure finer than -400mesh magnesium. -- A simple KNO3 Al dark S 55 30 15 are good for this. Or 50 KNO3 25 -400mesh Mg 25 30 micron blue Al. Or this with Sulfur using a 5/4/1 ratio

The reason I haven't made any nitrate based aluminum flash powders, is that I can't get nitrates easily and perchlorates were the easiest oxidizer for me to make "easily". Now I could make potassium nitrate with the same method for making the sodium or barium nitrate as well, and I'll probably do that, but if I can get a brighter flash with some other nitrate while still being somewhat stable, then I'll make it.

[cmjlab]

Going back to the basics, just pick a starting point for your KCLO4 to fuel (Aluminum) ratio and make small test batches till you get what you want. It CAN be done with KCL04 / Aluminum.

 

Ex: (KCLO4 : Fuel) in no container / loose pile

1. 50:50 = Bang / or / Burns fast but no noise...

2. 45:55 = Bang (quieter, but still too loud)

3. 40:60 = Bang (quieter yet, getting close)

4. 35:65 = Flash / slight pop

5. 30:70 = Flash / NO pop (ideal light to noise ratio)

 

Then test your ideal ratio in whatever type of containment you plan to use, and continue to tweak your ratios till you get the noise you want and flash.

 

Ex. (Starting with ideal ratio from 1st tests) using the container you want for final effect.

 

1. 30:70 tube (3 turns 40lb kraft) tied at ends.

-> Result: Popped slightly louder than desired.

2. 25:75 (same tube / tied closed on ends)

-> Result: Burned too slow to burst container, no flash.

3. 27.5:72.5 (same tube / tied ends)

-> Result: Bright flash w/ slight bang, but low decibel that won't be heard from distance.

 

 

Obviously you will have to test to find out what that actual ideal ratio is, but get the gist

Edited October 14, 2023 by cmjlab

[mx5kevin]

But if you do know, how much more energetic is the sodium nitrate mixed with aluminum, compared to barium nitrate? Is it energetic enough to make a bang, or still below that?

 

Sodium nitrate a little bit less energetic than barium nitrate with magnesium. Compared with aluminum with Sr and Ba nitrates the difference are drastic. Al (dark 3-12 micron) with Na nitrate the flash are without sulfur are not fast, not faster than with KNO3 but with Ba and Sr nitrates are have a stable whump sound and the flash are fast like a KClO3/Al 70/30 when a 6/3/1 Nitrate/Al/S ratio are used. Strontium and barium nitrate are the most energetic nitrates especially with aluminum and not so popular with magnesium compared with Na nitrate. NaNO3 are much more soluble in water than Ba nitrate so it binds more moisture. Starting with MgAl will be the best and if Mg MgAl are used if Al are added highly recommended to coat the 30 micron Al too in the metal powder mixture too with boiled linseed oil. This is very good for the light too not just protecting the metal powder. For this purpose nitrates with -325 mesh magnalium and 30 micron aluminum are the best. I think 80 Mg/Al:20 30 micron Blue for the purpose will be fine. For this purpose Ba nitrate are the best with aluminum are the best or magnalium but not pure magnesium, everything else is just an imitation compared to it with light. Barium nitrate with magnesium are less bright than aluminum. Barium nitrate with aluminum and sulfur have a fast and extreme illuminating white light. This is the real blinding whight light that dazzles one's eyes and wanders after it in the dark. Sodium nitrate is similar, but not as much and highly yellowish not have that illuminating effect. With Sr nitrate a third place but much more energetic than the Na nitrate version (Maybe someone likes it better than sodium the reddish white effect). With KNO3 are very weak imitation compared with Na or Sr it is a dim light compared to them. US8161883B1 patent Flash-bang grenade Army professional formula 13.5 million candela by the patent are using strontium nitrate aluminum sulfur formula (have a reddish light). If the point a fast nitrate flash with aluminum (without Mg or Mg/Al) Sr or Ba nitrates the only option what give a fast result with dark Al (and coarser Al mixture) . With Mg and MgAl NaNO3 works too for a fast flash base if Al are used with it (presence of sulfur recommended).

Edited October 14, 2023 by mx5kevin

[MicroGram]

No offence, but you seem to lack basic knowledge when it comes to pyrotechnics. I don't intend to be insulting or demeaning, but someone asking so many basic questions maybe shouldn't be messing with magnesium flash and nitric acid.....

[print118]

No offence, but you seem to lack basic knowledge when it comes to pyrotechnics. I don't intend to be insulting or demeaning, but someone asking so many basic questions maybe shouldn't be messing with magnesium flash and nitric acid.....

 

Well I am just a beginner when it comes to pyrotechnics and a hobbyist in chemistry, but we all have to start from somewhere, right? I do like to believe that I'm being relatively safe by only working at small scales for now and exercising caution, until I learn more about the craft. I do also do research about the materials I'll be working with and how to handle them without being harmed in the process. But I do see your concern.

[cmjlab]

It is a fair concern given the always ready media and anti-pyro folks to demonize anything pyro related. However -

 

I think there is a difference demonstrated by the questions asked (by the OP) and what I'd consider to be a Kewl and would typically ignore.

 

A kewl often has no concern for safety, does not ask about safe working amounts / doesn't reveal intended purpose, has no desire to put in work to make anything from scratch and is often looking for the quickest way to produce an M-80 with no demonstration of any other pyro interests. Also - all the "kewls" I've seen certainly are not looking to create photoflash (assuming that is what the OP is doing)

 

I also think geo location and availability of chemicals drives a lot of the OP's questions, as it's related mostly to making chemicals not available or too cost prohibitive to purchase.

 

With that being said - I again would not answer questions if I though there were underlying motivations, and do often air on the side of optimism when I'm not sure. Plus, I have full confidence that Mumbles will warn me if I am involved in an inappropriate discussion with glaring safety concerns.

 

But again, I appreciate your input - it's always good to have people double checking information for safety!

Edited October 15, 2023 by cmjlab

[MicroGram]

I realize now my post came off as being a bit rude. Sorry about that, it wasn't my intention. In part it was from me thinking back at all the dangerous things I've done in the past, specifically with Nitric/Sulfuric and anything i could think to nitrate. It's honestly a miracle i still have all my limbs and eyesight. With that being said perhaps its unfair of me to assume anyone is remotely dumb as i was!

Edited October 15, 2023 by MicroGram

[Richtee]

With that being said perhaps its unfair of me to assume anyone is remotely dumb as i was!

We all were at one point. Crap.. we had no teeth once. We grew, we stumbled. We learned. We all wanted to run before we could walk. Devil’s in the details. I had a mentor, thank goodness even before I discovered this place. And I owe much to this place. Much knowledge and much enjoyment.

[print118]

I realize now my post came of as being kind of rude. Sorry about that, it wasn't my intention. In part it was from me thinking back at all the dangerous things I've done in the past, specifically with Nitric/Sulfuric and anything i could think to nitrate. It's honestly a miracle i still have all my limbs and eyesight. With that being said perhaps its unfair of me to assume anyone is remotely dumb as i was!

 

No worries, it's good to be concerned for the safety of others, and I do appreciate the concern! And as Richtee said, we were all beginners at some point.

 

Back on topic a bit, what are the environmental concerns of using barium nitrate in flash powders? According to the Wikipedia page on flash powders, barium nitrate with magnesium would create barium oxide:

Ba(NO₃)₂ + 5Mg → BaO + N₂ + 5MgO.

Barium oxide, as most of it's salts, is toxic and can cause death. So how dangerous is it to the environment or nearby people breathing in possible barium oxide fumes?

[cmjlab]

I'm not sure what your concern is here. I see toxicity to viewers as two groups: close proximity and then your normal fireworks display with adequate standoff for safety from fallout/mishap and toxic particles to disperse to a safe level.

 

I have zero knowledge on standards for close proximity fireworks, but I've read and heard discussion that there are regulations on low-smoke / low toxicity / use of comps that are proven to nearly completely consume itself or use of NC to ensure the minimum production of toxic by-products.

 

With that being said, last I knew, KCL04 pollution was the big thing for ground water, and toxicity of heavy metals is usually a close second. However, I don't think that the small amount of fireworks displayed by industry and hobbyists is enough to be of concern, unless someone is straight dumping large amounts of toxic chemicals on the ground or into city waste / sewage systems and onto drinking water. My 2¢

[print118]

The problem is that the photoflash I'm making will be used in somewhat close proximity to people, like a few meters or so (which is one of the reasons I don't want a bang). The reaction products then wouldn't have as much time to spread out over a larger area and may thus be problematic. I would rather not get barium poisoning or have to wear a gas mask near the photoflash. If the barium won't get dispersed enough, I may have to use strontium or sodium nitrates instead.

[cmjlab]

Okay, well then the only thing I would add is that I'm not a chemist or a close proximity expert, in fact, I have zero knowledge with close-proximity pyro, the risk is too great for my liking. So please take everything I said as coming from a hobbyist.

 

From the chemistry & toxicity perspective, whenever Mumbles gets a chance he might have input ( Barium and bi-products toxicity), and it would be from an actual expertise / educated viewpoint.

[mx5kevin]

The problem is that the photoflash I'm making will be used in somewhat close proximity to people, like a few meters or so (which is one of the reasons I don't want a bang). The reaction products then wouldn't have as much time to spread out over a larger area and may thus be problematic. I would rather not get barium poisoning or have to wear a gas mask near the photoflash. If the barium won't get dispersed enough, I may have to use strontium or sodium nitrates instead.

 

There is absolutely no need to worry about someone getting barium poisoning from working fireworks. Ba(NO3)2 it is widely used in professional pyrotechnics like in bengal fire large quantities. Depending on the type, flash powders burn at several thousand degrees. They can vaporize some objects in a fraction of a second. I'd rather be afraid that it will easily explode if an inexperienced person puts it together. Especially if magnesium is used and not properly mixed with the right mesh sized aluminum. There are too many questions asked here, which can be found out with a little experimentation by a beginner. As a rule, we know that what we bring to the public close some watching people is safe. I guess you won't be a pyrotechnician in front of unknown people at an event. And i think you don't want using too homemade products on the street among strangers few meter from that you know could cause trouble. If someone asks too many questions and is not practical, it is suspicious. I have met several investigators who behave exactly like this. It is typical that they are too general. Let's explain everything about zero. In such cases, even compared to a beginner, there is such a lack of practical knowledge that there is nothing to talk about. This is how they try to get things out of hobbyists. In many cases, this is accompanied by a set of theoretical knowledge without any practice. Learning this is not possible on a forum with people of different knowledge. Professional documents should be reviewed where the knowledge of the person in is clearly visible on the given topic. Use Sr nitrate success is guaranteed without any magnesium or magnalium if dark and coarser 30 micron aluminum are available. With Na nitrate possible won't work without minimum a magnalium base mixture with aluminum. We cannot teach stable basic knowledge and practice, only you can learn it.

[print118]

I guess you won't be a pyrotechnician in front of unknown people at an event. And i think you don't want using too homemade products on the street among strangers few meter from that you know could cause trouble. If someone asks too many questions and is not practical, it is suspicious. I have met several investigators who behave exactly like this. It is typical that they are too general. Let's explain everything about zero. In such cases, even compared to a beginner, there is such a lack of practical knowledge that there is nothing to talk about. This is how they try to get things out of hobbyists.

 

I'm not really getting what you're trying to say here. What do you mean by "investigators"? Are you saying I'm actually a police officer or something? And what do mean by "trying to get things out of hobbyists"?

 

 

We cannot teach stable basic knowledge and practice, only you can learn it.

 

This I do get. My intent now is to test all of the different mixture combinations of aluminum, magnesium and different oxidizers strontium/barium/sodium nitrates/sulfates/carbonates/, etc and measure their properties. I intend to measure brightness with a lux meter, as well their sound level. I could also test their impact sensitivity and ignition temperatures. Maybe even the barium building up in the nearby soil with some analytical tests. Would be nice to get some real data.

[Skyboomer]

Hello. I’m a new member that’s been following this forum for quite awhile. I had some questions concerning flash powder safety. I know it’s best to handle or make flash with at least 60% humidity. The air is very dry where I live. Would using a Cool Mist type humidifier be advisable to use? Now I believe I also read that it’s best to keep aluminum away from moisture?

The flash composition is the standard 70:30 with 2 micron Indian dark. I screen my perk immediately before mixing it with the aluminum via the diapering method. I have an anti static wristband and the rubber mat that I work on is also grounded. I also wear gloves, eye and respiratory protection. I have 3 different size tubes with plastic insertable end caps. The inside diameters are 9/16x3”, 1”x4” and 1”x6”. I’m planning to use superglue for the end caps after I scrape them up with a coarse file. I was also going to spike them by using a zip tie from end to end to help keep the caps on. What would be an appropriate safe load for each size tube using 2 micron Indian dark (or black?). Does flash need bit of room in the tube? I made a 1/4x2” salute and ignited it with a wireless remote system. It had quite the bang and very quick flash to it. I would appreciate any advice. Also, I think I’m basically educated enough to handle flammable/explosive material as I was a fuels/cryo specialist in the Air Force many moons ago. I also keep everything separated by powders I use. Wooden spoon, paper cups and separate ball mill chambers.

 

I had to reply to a post before starting my own and this looked like an appropriate and recent thread for this. Plus I wouldn’t want to start a new and probably well hashed over topic for just a few specific questions that pertain to my setup. I’m also interested in making some type of skyrocket using rocket candy for fuel. What ingredient is used to slow down the burn of it if I wanted to make a smoke device? Thank you.