Let’s see your BP!

[All10Fingers]

I'm gunna start using that. These new boots are the cats ass. 

[Arthur]

The Royal Gunpowder Mills at Waltham Abbey made the BP for the British Crown -Army Navy etc. (Hence the Royal in the title) they used Willow and Red Alder woods, and charcoaled them on site with up to a year's storage between harvest and charcoaling.

Maybe many people could do the research and find out what these trees are called in each country, and where they grow.

Also someone could find all sorts of readily available trees in their country and test the charcoal and to powder that they make.

One suggestion from the past years was " trees that grow quickly by water" if that helps. 

[Richtee]

1 hour ago, Arthur said:

The Royal Gunpowder Mills at Waltham Abbey

I looked and could not find, but I could SWEAR I seen a rather exhaustive list of BP tests using like 40-50 charcoals somewhere...

[DavidF]

Richtee, this website that Kevin was nice enough to save for us has the tests you mention. I downloaded it and unzipped it successfully, which is saying a lot for me  The file is titled Charcoal Tests. My contributions to the list were narrowleaf willow and staghorn sumac. The sumac (NOT poison sumac!) is found over much of North America. I like it because the bark is easy to take off the fresh wood by making a lengthwise slit and peeling it back. The wood exudes a sticky resin though, which is annoying. It makes very good black powder, which I've used in nozzleless rockets with excellent results.

[ifixs]

On 3/29/2024 at 7:38 PM, Richtee said:

BBQ charcoal is the worst thing you can use. You have no hope using that.  I use mostly willow wood and make my own charcoal. Yer gonna need to do some research. Search “Black powder” - there are probably thousands of posts on it here. Do not be impatient. Impatience makes mistakes, and mistakes can be lethal in this hobby.

 

As a frame of reference, I have been reading and working on this hobby 30 years. Perhaps twice your age. PATIENCE! 

Hello,

I am reaching out again regarding the black powder. I remade the composition using white willow charcoal. I achieved a better result, but it is not as good as the one on the forum. I don't understand why. My mix is 75% KNO3, 15% charcoal, and 10% sulfur. I made my own charcoal and have a ball mill. I don't understand why my powder is moderately fast. Can you help me understand where my error might be? Thank you in advance.

[Richtee]

1 hour ago, ifixs said:

Hello,

I am reaching out again regarding the black powder. I remade the composition using white willow charcoal. I achieved a better result, but it is not as good as the one on the forum. I don't understand why. My mix is 75% KNO3, 15% charcoal, and 10% sulfur. I made my own charcoal and have a ball mill. I don't understand why my powder is moderately fast. Can you help me understand where my error might be? Thank you in advance.

Are you ball milling all ingredients together? And depending on ball mill media/efficiency.. for several hours at least? I often mill overnight/12+ hours. And you made your charcoal... did you do it correctly? Not “overcooked” which means no grey ash in it? Midnight black chunks. No ash. 

[cmjlab]

On 7/21/2024 at 8:07 PM, ifixs said:

Hello,

I am reaching out again regarding the black powder. I remade the composition using white willow charcoal. I achieved a better result, but it is not as good as the one on the forum. I don't understand why. My mix is 75% KNO3, 15% charcoal, and 10% sulfur. I made my own charcoal and have a ball mill. I don't understand why my powder is moderately fast. Can you help me understand where my error might be? Thank you in advance.

I'd be curious to know more about your milling set up.  I.e. what are you using for milling media, how long you are milling for, and what size batches to mill size are you running.  

I am of the opinion that all the variables don't need to be perfect (though it definitely shortens the amount of milling time needed), but I'd bet you would benefit from longer milling time assuming everything is measured out correctly for your KN03/Charcoal/Sulfur.

Charles

[ifixs]

Le 22/07/2024 à 03:34, Richtee a dit :

Broyez-vous tous les ingrédients ensemble ? Et selon le matériau/l'efficacité du broyeur à boulets... pendant plusieurs heures au moins ? Je broie souvent pendant la nuit/plus de 12 heures. Et vous avez fabriqué votre charbon de bois... l'avez-vous fait correctement ? Pas « trop cuit », ce qui signifie qu'il ne contient pas de cendre grise ? Des morceaux noirs comme la nuit. Pas de cendre. 

Hello,

I didn't grind it for very long, I think 1 hour per ingredient + 1 hour with all the ingredients together. There were white deposits on the branches, but they were very light. The color of the wood was obsidian black. There are several possible reasons why my powder isn't working well:

1. The KNO3 might be of poor quality.
2. I used branches instead of logs to make the charcoal.
3. The barrel might not have been rinsed well, leaving motor grease residues.
4. I opened the barrel while the charcoal was cooking, and it caught fire. I did another cooking with new branches, but I don't think it caught fire this time.

Best regards, Ifixs.

Sorry for the delay in my message.

Edited September 14 by ifixs

[Zumber]

2 hours ago, ifixs said:

Hello,

I didn't grind it for very long, I think 1 hour per ingredient + 1 hour with all the ingredients together. 

You grind all chemicals together?

I assume you meant to say 'mill' instead of grinding.

 

[ifixs]

Il y a 5 heures, Zumber a dit :

Vous broyez tous les produits chimiques ensemble ?

Je suppose que tu voulais dire « moulin » au lieu de moudre.

 

I grind each ingredient separately with a mixer, then in a ball mill, and then I mix everything together for an hour in the ball mill with all the ingredients.

Best regards, Ifixs.

[Richtee]

I’m pretty sure I never said this. I’m really sure I can’t say this. 

Edited September 14 by Richtee

[cmjlab]

11 hours ago, ifixs said:

• The KNO3 might be of poor quality.
• I used branches instead of logs to make the charcoal.
• The barrel might not have been rinsed well, leaving motor grease residues.
• I opened the barrel while the charcoal was cooking, and it caught fire. I did another cooking with new branches, but I don't think it caught fire this time

Well, you identified some potential issues that you have to rule out in your post.  A couple thoughts though -

______________________________

1.  The KNO3 might be of poor quality.  This could affect your B.P. potentially, but for decent B.P. we don't need the most pure there is.  What do you mean by poor quality though (agricultural, fertilizer, tech, recovered KNO3, etc)?
2. I used branches instead of logs to make the charcoal.  Most literature I've read  recommends using smaller and softer parts of the wood like branches for ideal fast burning charcoal, not the older and harder parts like the trunk.  Of course the type of wood is another factor.
3. The barrel might not have been rinsed well, leaving motor grease residues.  If you used a ball mill barrel with grease in it, I'm sure that would not be helpful at all for decent B.P.  Out of curiosity, why would it have grease in it?
4. I opened the barrel while the charcoal was cooking, and it caught fire.         I did another cooking with new branches, but I don't think it caught fire this time.  I don't think a little ash would have much affect on your final product.  A lot of ash could, amd would throw your ratios off (so can really damp charcoal - which can have a significant amount of moisture content even when it looks / feels dry, and can be tested by drying a stapler with before and after weights).

________________

Just some thoughts that crossed my mind, that you might consider ruling out before adjusting your mill time / process.  Good luck!

[ifixs]

8 hours ago, cmjlab said:

Eh bien, vous avez identifié certains problèmes potentiels que vous devez éliminer dans votre message. Quelques réflexions cependant -

______________________________

1. Le KNO3 pourrait être de mauvaise qualité.  Cela pourrait potentiellement affecter votre BP, mais pour un BP décent , nous n'avons pas besoin du plus pur qui soit. Mais qu'entendez-vous par mauvaise qualité (agricole, engrais, technologie, KNO3 récupéré, etc.) ?
2. J'ai utilisé des branches au lieu de bûches pour fabriquer le charbon de bois.  La plupart des ouvrages que j'ai lus recommandent d'utiliser des parties plus petites et plus tendres du bois comme des branches pour un charbon de bois idéal à combustion rapide, et non les parties plus anciennes et plus dures comme le tronc. Bien sûr, le type de bois est un autre facteur .
3. Le canon n'a peut-être pas été bien rincé, laissant des résidus de graisse de moteur.  Si vous avez utilisé un canon de broyeur à boulets avec de la graisse dedans, je suis sûr que cela ne serait pas du tout utile pour un BP décent. Par curiosité, pourquoi y aurait-il de la graisse dedans ?
4. J'ai ouvert le canon pendant que le charbon de bois cuisait, et il a pris feu. J'ai fait une autre cuisson avec de nouvelles branches, mais je ne pense pas qu'il ait pris feu cette fois.  Je ne pense pas qu'un peu de cendre aurait beaucoup d'effet sur votre produit final. Une grande quantité de cendres pourrait et pourrait fausser vos ratios (tout comme le charbon de bois très humide - qui peut avoir une teneur en humidité importante même lorsqu'il semble/se sent sec, et peut être testé en séchant une agrafeuse avec des poids avant et après).

________________

Ce ne sont que quelques idées qui m'ont traversé l'esprit et que vous pourriez envisager d'écarter avant d'ajuster le temps/processus de votre moulin. Bonne chance !

Hello,

Thank you for your response. I use 100% pure saltpeter, but it's food-grade (maybe that's where the problem comes from?). I used branches that were about 4 cm thick. I dried them well before cooking them. Once they were cooked, I stored the charcoal in a dry place in my room. The wood I used is supposed to be white willow, but I may have misidentified the tree (I'm not a botanist😂).

After combustion, there was a bit of ash left, which I removed by blowing on it, and it came off easily.

I didn't express myself well in my last question. I bought two used barrels to turn into charcoal burners. I rinsed them with a pressure washer, but I think there were still some oil residues left. This might have damaged the charcoal during the cooking process.

Best regards,
Ifixs

Thank you for your help.

[cmjlab]

5 hours ago, ifixs said:

Hello,

Thank you for your response. I use 100% pure saltpeter, but it's food-grade (maybe that's where the problem comes from?). I used branches that were about 4 cm thick. I dried them well before cooking them. Once they were cooked, I stored the charcoal in a dry place in my room. The wood I used is supposed to be white willow, but I may have misidentified the tree (I'm not a botanist😂).

After combustion, there was a bit of ash left, which I removed by blowing on it, and it came off easily.

I didn't express myself well in my last question. I bought two used barrels to turn into charcoal burners. I rinsed them with a pressure washer, but I think there were still some oil residues left. This might have damaged the charcoal during the cooking process.

Gotcha - all your responses made sense.  It does not sound like the KN03, ball mill barrels, or your charcoal making are a problem (though it may not hurt to try a moisture test on your charcoal even if does feel / look dry, it has the ability to retain a lot of moisture even when straight out of the retort). 

With the basic variables ruled out, it leaves only a few other potential issues.

1. Inefficient milling.  There's a whole science to milling (with enough info to write a book - as has been done).  Much like @Richtee asked above - your milling process is important too. 

      - Short Answer:  Your milling process is likely not running efficiently, and the easiest solution is to mill longer.  I.e. run it 3 or 4 hours instead of just one, with all 3 components being milled, then retest your b.p.  I'd bet you see an improvement. 

    - Long Answer:  Milling efficency is important if you only plan to mill all 3 components together for 1 hour.   Media charge is important for efficiency (how full is your mill jar with just the media, no chems), and ratio of chems to media is also important.  (I.e. only 3/4 of mill jar should be occupied with total media and chem charge.  Media fulled ~2/3 of mill jar, chems filled in between media and up to 3/4 of your jar capacity at most). Media type also matters - hardened lead is preferred by most, ceramic media os lighter and takes longer, and non-sparking stainless steel media (304 or 316 SS)) is least preferred due to risks / expense, but also very efficient at milling.  Lastly, how fast your mill is turning (RPMs) also effects efficiency (too slow means not much grinding / milling.  Too fast means media sricks to the walls from centrifugal force and doesnt mill b.p.).  Again, the solution to not running your mill with all of the most "efficient" factors is to run it longer (as long as the media are tumbling inside mill jar.  

2. Charcoal as the variable. Meaning maybe its the wood type effecting b.p. speed, but there is a gentleman on here (Dave F.) that has consistently shown you can make decent to good b.p. even with commercial hardwood charcoal (or even without 3 component milling), so I'd assume any type of willow should make "good" b.p. - but it DOES rely on efficient milling of the charcoal.

3. Definition of "fast" b.p., and how you are testing it.  Lastly, most in here would caution you not to seek the fastest b.p. you can make at first, seek decent b.p. eith consistency.  The fastest b.p. is not always as useful in Pyro like it is if you are a muzzleloader or B.P. firearm enthusiast.  For me, I make decent B.P. which I can use to lift small or large shells, break all my shells open (using booster for smaller shells to improve the break and make up for bot having "the best" b.p.), and for all my other b.p. needs.  Also, I'd you share a video of your B.P. in some form of burn test like a 1" column in a spolette tube, or even a measured amount in a 12" line lit from one end, etc., it may be that your b.p. is better than you think.  

Hope this helps a little.  

Chuck

[ifixs]

On 15/09/2024 at 18:03, cmjlab said:

Je t'ai compris - toutes tes réponses sont logiques. Il ne semble pas que le KN03, les barils du broyeur à boulets ou ta fabrication de charbon de bois soient un problème (bien qu'il ne fasse pas de mal d'essayer un test d'humidité sur ton charbon de bois même s'il semble sec, il a la capacité de retenir beaucoup d'humidité même lorsqu'il sort directement de la cornue). 

Une fois les variables de base éliminées, il ne reste que quelques autres problèmes potentiels.

1. Un broyage inefficace. Le broyage est une science à part entière (avec suffisamment d'informations pour écrire un livre - comme cela a été fait). Tout comme @Richtee l'a demandé ci-dessus - votre processus de broyage est également important. 

      - Réponse courte : votre processus de broyage ne fonctionne probablement pas efficacement et la solution la plus simple est de moudre plus longtemps. Par exemple, faites-le fonctionner 3 ou 4 heures au lieu d'une seule, avec les 3 composants broyés, puis testez à nouveau votre tension artérielle. Je parie que vous constaterez une amélioration. 

    - Réponse longue : L'efficacité de broyage est importante si vous prévoyez de broyer les 3 composants ensemble pendant 1 heure seulement. La charge du support est importante pour l'efficacité (à quel point votre bol de broyage est-il plein avec seulement le support, sans produits chimiques), et le rapport produits chimiques/supports est également important. (C'est-à-dire que seulement 3/4 du bol de broyage doit être occupé par la charge totale de support et de produits chimiques. Le support remplit environ 2/3 du bol de broyage, les produits chimiques remplis entre les supports et jusqu'à 3/4 de la capacité de votre pot au maximum). Le type de support est également important - le plomb durci est préféré par la plupart, les supports en céramique sont plus légers et prennent plus de temps, et les supports en acier inoxydable anti-étincelles (SS 304 ou 316) sont les moins préférés en raison des risques/dépenses, mais sont également très efficaces pour le broyage. Enfin, la vitesse de rotation de votre broyeur (RPM) affecte également l'efficacité (trop lent signifie qu'il n'y a pas beaucoup de broyage/fraisage. Trop rapide signifie que le support s'écaille sur les parois à cause de la force centrifuge et ne broie pas la pâte). Encore une fois, la solution pour ne pas faire fonctionner votre moulin avec tous les facteurs les plus « efficaces » est de le faire fonctionner plus longtemps (tant que les supports culbutent à l'intérieur du bol du moulin).  

2. Le charbon de bois comme variable. Cela signifie peut-être que c'est le type de bois qui affecte la vitesse de cuisson, mais il y a un monsieur ici (Dave F.) qui a constamment montré que l'on peut faire un bon cuisson même avec du charbon de bois dur commercial (ou même sans broyage à 3 composants), donc je suppose que n'importe quel type de saule devrait faire un "bon" cuisson - mais cela dépend d'un broyage efficace du charbon de bois.

3. Définition de la pression artérielle « rapide » et comment la tester. Enfin, la plupart des personnes présentes ici vous avertiront de ne pas rechercher la pression artérielle la plus rapide que vous puissiez obtenir au début, mais plutôt une pression artérielle décente avec une certaine consistance. La pression artérielle la plus rapide n'est pas toujours aussi utile dans Pyro que si vous êtes un passionné de chargeur par la bouche ou d'armes à feu à pression artérielle. Pour ma part, je fabrique une pression artérielle décente que je peux utiliser pour soulever des cartouches petites ou grandes, ouvrir toutes mes cartouches (en utilisant un booster pour les cartouches plus petites afin d'améliorer la rupture et de compenser le fait que je n'ai pas la « meilleure » pression artérielle), et pour tous mes autres besoins en pression artérielle. De plus, je vous invite à partager une vidéo de votre pression artérielle dans une sorte de test de combustion comme une colonne de 1" dans un tube à spolette, ou même une quantité mesurée dans une ligne de 12" allumée à une extrémité, etc., il se peut que votre pression artérielle soit meilleure que vous ne le pensez.  

J'espère que cela aide un peu.  

Mandrin

Hello,

Thank you for your response. I am going to try grinding my black powder for a longer period. I use a Vevor machine (see below) with glass beads inside, as the machine comes with steel balls, which aren't very safe.

I think there might be an issue with my ingredients because, when I didn't have a ball mill and was using BBQ charcoal, the results were slightly less effective than with the ball mill and homemade charcoal. However, I do get a very consistent burn. I will send you a video when I make another batch, which should be in a few weeks.

Thank you for your help.

Best regards,
Ifixs

[Mumbles]

I would say the root of your issue is insufficient grinding. Rock tumblers of this sort tend not to be all that efficient.

Firstly, I'd avoid glass marbles as milling media. They're not very efficient, and there is some concerns around sparking or leaving glass dust behind.  Secondly, I'd look at milling for 4-8hr together and see how that compares.  I understand that might not be all that easy with that particular model having a built in timer.

[Richtee]

2 hours ago, Mumbles said:

I would say the root of your issue is insufficient grinding. Rock tumblers of this sort tend not to be all that efficient.

Firstly, I'd avoid glass marbles as milling media. They're not very efficient, and there is some concerns around sparking or leaving glass dust behind.  Secondly, I'd look at milling for 4-8hr together and see how that compares.  I understand that might not be all that easy with that particular model having a built in timer.

I'd agree. Altho not popular, lead media is efficient and affordable. Well, here anyway. I used .58 and .45 caliber musket rifle rounds for years. Have switched to brass. and you need to mill...3 component..for HOURS  not an hour. 

 

Odd..yet I can hear a good milling going on. I call it “The Marching of the Balls” A rhythmic sound, even and smooth.

 

I had a friend send me some food grade nitrate...he’d planned on making hams, but that din’t happen, soo.. The powder from it was quite good. That’s not an issue. I saved a few grams for hams tho 😄

Edited September 17 by Richtee

[Arthur]

Remember that BP was in peak usage before purities of 98% were known!! Modern purity figures in the 99%+ range were unheard of then. Food grade potassium nitrate will be fine -just expensive! BUT food curing salt as dry or wet application to food is 5% nitre 95% sodium chloride. Usually meat curing places will buy salt and nitre in separate bags, maybe even from different suppliers.

One member here puts a mill accident that cost him fingers down to milling with glass marbles -abraded glass has a strong sensitising action on lots of pyro and reloading mixtures. Lead media is considered good, ceramic balls are good and less heavy. I've heard of wooden balls being used. Particle size reduction needs heavy hard balls, the incorporation of fine powder can use lighter media. 

Most amateur mills and things borrowed from other jobs (rock and jewelery tumblers etc) turn slowly and drive little weight. It's likely that a mill run will take 12 hours. Given a suitable place then maybe two loads per day would work. Sadly it's necessary to do tests, lots of tests! Make a mill run and take a small sample every hour from the sixth hour of running. Compare the burn rate of a say 6" line of powder. Stop milling when there is no more gain in speed for extra milling.

Edited September 17 by Arthur
spling

[Richtee]

45 minutes ago, Arthur said:

 food curing salt as dry or wet application to food is 5% nitre 95% sodium chloride.

That's pretty accurate. Why I only saved a couple grams  One could cure a quatrer of pork production in the US tomarrow with a pound

 

Edited September 17 by Richtee