NC Lacquer, Nitrocellulose Lacquer

[nordicwolf]

Besides Dragon Eggs / Crackle, what else can NC lacquer be used for?

 

I only see it listed once in the formulas database, but are there other uses for it? stars? strobes?

 

Maybe make your own electrical igniters with nichrome wire dipped in NC lacquer then dipped in BP?

 

Thanks.

[Carbon796]

All of the above.

[Bourbon]

I use it for slurry prime too (fuse or ignition.)

[Richtee]

I use it for slurry prime too (fuse or ignition.)

A dip and a dab in fine BP makes your fuses easy to light. I have used it to “seal” shitty visco. It was failing from the moisture of the glue I was using. Made a thick NC mix and pulled the fuse thru it. Bingo...

[Carbon796]

Just to clarify for priming. The NCL needs to be blended with your prime of choice, to make a slurry. Then dipped in fine grained BP. Just using plain NCL dipped in fine grained BP. Has been known to inhibit ignition, on occasion.

[nordicwolf]

What do you mean by, or how do you "blend" the lacquer with prime? Is it not the same as dipping in the lacquer then dipping into prime?

 

In the DE thread there is mention of diluting the lacquer significantly with acetone such that it is thin enough to be sprayed with an atomizer. But that seems to be different from what you mean by blending with prime to make a slurry?

 

Okay I should just ask directly = how do you blend the NCL with prime to make a slurry? What proportions NCL to amount of prime? Thank you.

[Carbon796]

Usually pyro NCL was sold at 10% solids to 90% solvent. So a 10% concentration. Just mix,stir,blend in your prime of choice. To the consistancy you prefer, for what your working on. Once it's applied, before it skins over, you'll dip it in fine grained BP. This slurry technique is usually used when your priming spolette's,TF, inserts, and larger comets. Similar to water based slurry primes.

 

When your spraying strait NCL. You'll need to thin/reduce it out some, to about 2-3%. Otherwise it will not spray well. You'll usually use this type of technique. When your priming masses of stars. Similar to water/dissolve binder wet spraying. With the application of dry prime.

 

If your were to just brush on, or dip the end of your TF. With straight NCL and no mixed in prime. Its very possible, to have some ignition issues. Your basically coating the end of your fuse with a flammable " plastic barrier " once dry. One that is not as flammable with far less critical wind velocity. Than the fuse itself, or the BP above it.

Edited January 25, 2022 by Carbon796

[nordicwolf]

Great stuff...thank you.

 

Are there any formulas for stars, strobes, etc that anyone can share? Maybe for the jelly bean lava stars? Strobe stars? anything? Thanks!

[Bourbon]

Carbon796 explained that well. It can't just be NC, for reliability. It must be a "slurry" of NC/BP or NC/Prime of your choice. Once dipped or applied, it should be dipped again with the dry mesh of your liking.

 

For me, I don't like to re-dip directly into dry mix myself. I spoon whatever it is I want coated over my wet slurry, all around, and tap it lightly with a finger, pressing it on like candy sprinkles... It makes a beautiful little fuzzy head. I find re-dipping causes distortions and thin spots I don't like. But, that's just me.

[Carbon796]

Great stuff...thank you.

 

Are there any formulas for stars, strobes, etc that anyone can share? Maybe for the jelly bean lava stars? Strobe stars? anything? Thanks!

Is there something specific your wanting to work on or build ?

 

A NCL slurry prime can definitely be a useful tool or technique to use, for specific purposes. But the majority of the time. You'll probably find yourself using more traditional water based binders.

 

Using NC for binders or slurry's. Is more expensive if your building in any sizable quantities. Solvent fumes can be somewhat hazardous and annoying to be constantly dealing with. In use and clean up it can sometimes be more difficult and messy. It's main advantages, are its very quick drying. Its ability to allow you to work around some incompatibility issues. Notably AP/kno3. And it's clean burning when used as a binder. In comps that are weaker in color strength, like blue's. And it's the traditional binder for use in crackle.

 

Bleser's New Blue

.82 AP

.18 copper Benz

Bound with straight NCL and pumped. Iirc its spec'd out at 3% concentration

 

Initial KP based hot prime can be water bound.

 

Then final scratch mixed BP prime can be applied with NCL spray.

 

This avoids direct contact of AP/kno3. And, any water leaching/migration issues of the kno3. For example.

Edited January 25, 2022 by Carbon796

[nordicwolf]

I would like to try NCL with microstars. I learned to make microstars for gerbs / fountains from a guy using no core, making star comps into patties and pressing them through 5 mesh screen and rolling them aggressively to round them out. They I would spray / powder or toro / powder to grow a bit, step prime, then prime.

 

He used phenolic resin as the binder with denatured alcohol as the solvent. I know it costs more than water and dextrin, but it dries faster, maybe harder, and without worry of water being driven in (although I don't know how much a concern that is with 1/4" - 1/3" small stars).

 

So those stars look great. I am happy with them.

 

What I want to get is the lava lamp effect, like those glow-balls in a lava lamp, or jelly bean effect, whatever it is called, that I see in fountains we buy at the stands. I am told they are NC stars, and I would like to try to get that effect.

 

I wonder if I use my red or green star formula but take out the phenolic resin (has hexamine in it too but I think I would leave that). And maybe I try to bind that comp mixture with NCL and see what happens. I guess it would be very hard and maybe come out like crackle DE cores, but I could try thinning the NCL and spraying it on and rolling in powder to round it out. Or maybe a toro made from thin NCL mixed with the comp. Don't know.

 

Might be worth a try.

[nordicwolf]

Regarding Dragon Eggs / Crackle, the last batch I made worked well when lit but I primed it poorly, pretty much ruining the effect. I used a BP-ish prime plus silicon, but if I remember right I did not step prime with 50% prime + 50% crackle comp - I think I went straight to the prime 100%.

 

Also I used denatured alcohol as the solvent, not acetone. I wonder if that is the problem.

 

What happens is the prime lights, but the core does not. I have to use a torch to get it to go or embed in a fountain mix. Sometimes they work, but most blow blind with the prime lighting but not the crackle. Thanks.

[Carbon796]

You may just need to add more prime. If the prime layer is burning off too fast. Before it has time to transfer sufficient heat to the DE core.

 

If you have your stars working well with PR binding. I doubt your going to see any significant difference/improvement using NC.

 

Cost isn't really an over riding concern most times, for hobbyist. But if your just making some basic nitrate red stars, for example. Choosing NC binding over water binding doesn't really gain you any performance advantages, or ease of processing advantages. To some, having to deal with some solvent fumes, messier clean up, or the increased cost of binder and solvents. Doesn't really seem to be much of an issue. When they are measuring their batch sizes out in 100's of grams, or a couple thousands of grams at a time. But when your batch sizes are in the 10's of pounds. And, you may be spending 6 to 8hrs. of time processing the comp. All of those potential negatives will really start to add up. And, there will really have been no advantages gained. In that particular use.

Edited January 26, 2022 by Carbon796

[nordicwolf]

Thanks, Carbon. Regarding the DE prime, I think I had plenty, but even so maybe it was not enough.

 

Regarding the red / green star example (yes they are nitrate based with pot perchlorate), I was wondering if NCL binding might make it burn more smokeless and therefore brighter, or more glo-ball like, or something.

 

Maybe NCL as a binder is not enough to create that effect, but that lava lamp, jelly bean, glo ball effect is what I am trying to achieve.

[Carbon796]

Not enough, or not hot enough. That's why they are working ok in the fountains. They spend more time in the flame envelope, for ignition. Usually DE formulas have fairly specific prime recommendation. So if your using the recommended one, its probably just not thick enough.

 

Every few years, it seems like someone wants to make those stars your referring to. I don't recall much ever really coming from it. Other than supposedly they are NC based. But there's more to them than that. There might be some formula clues to them buried on FW'ing some where. But, I do not recall, anyone having any real success. Or posting an actual working formula for them.

[Arthur]

Mixed ingredients BP make a fine prime, three finely powdered ingredients mixed but not milled.

[nordicwolf]

Arthur, are you saying that finely powdered KNO3, finely powdered Sulfur and finely powdered Charcoal will make a good prime? What ratio?

 

Is it okay to ball mill those ingredients individually, then screen mix them using a 100 mesh screen, to result in a good prime?

 

Why would finely powdered, but not milled together, mixed ingredients make a better prime than intimately mixed/ball-milled bp?

 

Thanks.

[Arthur]

Actually YES! A prime from BP ingredients in one of the BP ratios will prime difficult stars because it burns slowly and with lots of dross which is hot and sticky sticking to the star.

milled and corned powder will burn much faster and all the end products will be in the gas phase so carry some heat away from the substrate. this is why the "added 5% silicon" works -it makes a hot slag that melts and sticks to the star substrate and transfers a lot of heat.

 

Before spending money on exotic chems always try the simple primes. If you are rolling stars then make the star, then roll in BP ingredient prime mix then roll these in something like 4FA to make the outside lumpy so that it can catch the fire well.

[robbo]

What Arthur said.

 

"Scratch Mix" is an old standard prime:

 

KNO3 21

Sulfur 4

Charcoal 5 (fine, like AFC)

Dextrine 2

 

Don't mill it, just sift/mix well. Note that it's fuel-rich compared to the standard 15/3/2 of BP = it is more sparky/drossy. If not hot enough, then add 5% very fine FeTi or Si or Al. And don't waste your hot superfine C that you'd use for milled BP in it.

[Arthur]

Testing BP can include the scorched paper test. Burn a teaspoonful of powder on a piece of paper, fast powder leaves the paper white, slow slaggy powder scorches the paper. When you need to fire the underlayer use a slow powder for prime.

[Richtee]

Testing BP can include the scorched paper test. Burn a teaspoonful of powder on a piece of paper, fast powder leaves the paper white, slow slaggy powder scorches the paper. When you need to fire the underlayer use a slow powder for prime.

I made some fast sheet... it has never left the paper “white” But no burns or much residue. Not the best prime, tho.

[SharkWhisperer]

I made some fast sheet... it has never left the paper “white” But no burns or much residue. Not the best prime, tho.

The hottest BP will never leave a white sheet of paper white at the burn site. Simply generates too much heat instantaneously. Like Richtee says, good hot homemade BP, whether granulated or corned, will come pretty close to commercial in burn speeds/overall power and in burn tests won't leave burnthrough pinholes or anything but a nice dusting of residue. Just picked up some Goex and Schuetzen in 1Fg to Null-B (there is no shortage or rip-off pricing if you are resourceful) and it is potent stuff. But my homemade willow, ERC, and Paulownia-based granulated BP, although it doesn't have the same high density as corned commercial BP, definitely produces comparable burn rates and apparent energy release gram-for-gram (mortar testing).

 

Use crummy commercial hardwood airfloat for a nice moderate-speed controlled burn for primes; don't waste the good stuff.

 

Edit: Just realized this was an NC thread that got way off-topic, ack!

Edited February 5, 2022 by SharkWhisperer

[nordicwolf]

Not too far off topic. I had complained that my last batch of crackle would not light - my prime lit but not the core under it. I have things to try next time I make some. Thanks!

[Arthur]

Some cautions with prime. Prime is used to isolate incompatible comps, to take fire and to pass fire on, and maybe to delay fire. What you use has to suit all of these, don't be surprised if two layers of prime are needed.