pyrogenius007 Posted September 28, 2021 Posted September 28, 2021 Hi, I would like to make some crackling stars I have read that nitrocellulose lacquer is used as a binder for these stars. It is almost impossible to get nitrocellulose in India where the gun laws are very strict. I would like to know if there is any other suitable alternative for NC lacquer. I had made a small quantity of gun cotton which I dissolved in pure acetone, the result was a thick substance which I think is called collodion, can this be used as a binder for crackling stars ? Before I go off to purchase Bismuth Trioxide which is quite expensive I would like to know if collodion can be used as a binder. All advice would be highly appreciated. Thanks.
FlaMtnBkr Posted September 28, 2021 Posted September 28, 2021 If your gun cotton was fully nitrated and burns in a quick yellow flash with no ash then it should be closer to NC and what you want. Though if you are going to keep it around a while it needs to be well neutralized and ideally a stabilizer added which I believe urea does a good job of. From what I remember from quite a long time ago, colloidin is partially nitrated gun cotton that has plasticizers added in commercial product. I believe camphor is one which original ping pong balls smelled of, though I think they are moving to plastic. It seems like there is a way to tell which you have, maybe by density? Or I could be remembering wrong and it was the strength of acid that provided insight into the final product. I think for the most common DE formulas NC is best, but I'm almost positive I've heard of people being successful with colloidin and ping pong ball lacquer, though you probably want to look into stabilizers regardless when homemade. I also don't know what types of oxidizers are available but a few percent of something like KClO4 could help when using colloidin. Try searching for USA DE or dragon eggs or crackle on this site because someone experimented with no NC DE. I can look for it later but don't have time right now... I'm sure someone more knowledgeable will be along at some point.
kingkama Posted September 28, 2021 Posted September 28, 2021 You can also use phenolic resin, nc Is used only in USA where Is cheap and Easy to get.
deepakpyro Posted September 29, 2021 Posted September 29, 2021 (edited) Hi, I would like to make some crackling stars I have read that nitrocellulose lacquer is used as a binder for these stars. It is almost impossible to get nitrocellulose in India where the gun laws are very strict. I would like to know if there is any other suitable alternative for NC lacquer. I had made a small quantity of gun cotton which I dissolved in pure acetone, the result was a thick substance which I think is called collodion, can this be used as a binder for crackling stars ? Before I go off to purchase Bismuth Trioxide which is quite expensive I would like to know if collodion can be used as a binder. All advice would be highly appreciated. Thanks. Hey, Indeed it is difficult to get NC in India. Other sources of the NC that you can able to get here will be Magic cotton(also Nitro cotton), ping pong balls made up of Nitrocellulose and wood Lacquer made up of Nitrocellulose. All three are available but first two options will be costly but quality wise good. Lacquer will be cheap 400rs/litre but there will be few impurities. First two have good results but the cost of DE will be costlier and you will think twice before making it. I would recommend try using ping pong ball dissolved in acetone. I would not recommend making nitro cotton as it is difficult to make stable nitrocellulose. Edited September 29, 2021 by deepakpyro
pyrogenius007 Posted September 29, 2021 Author Posted September 29, 2021 deepakpyro, thanks for your advise, I tried dissolving ping pong balls but I think they were made of some kind of plastic, firstly they did not dissolve in acetone, I dissolved one in methanol but the result was a thick glue like substance which was definitely not NC, when I burn't it, it left a smoldering black mass. Do you know of any specific brand of ping pong balls which are made of NC, are they very expensive ? How many balls would it take to make say 100 gms. of DE ?
deepakpyro Posted September 30, 2021 Posted September 30, 2021 (edited) Hey, i can't able to recall the brand but it is an expensive one. I got the ping pong from one of old sports stores near to my area and it's hard to find the Balls made up of NC. i bought 3 balls for 350 INR. Each ball would approx weighs 2.5 to 3 gms. So in this case you would need 3 to 4 balls for 100 gms of acetone. That would give you about ~100 gms of Lacquer with 10% nitrocellulose content. I am not using that method currently. But you can try the NC Lacquer mentioned in this forum https://www.amateurpyro.com/forums/topic/13951-magic-flash-cotton-as-nitrocellulose/page-1 this one used for wood works. One more alternative is that, if you have any automobile paint shop nearby they must have clear Lacquer madeup of NC. Read the contents before buying, there may be Lacquer not made-up of NC. That may worth trying considering the cost of bismuth and cupric Edited September 30, 2021 by deepakpyro
Arthur Posted September 30, 2021 Posted September 30, 2021 NC comes in various nitration levels, according to process and purpose. NC as explosive or propellant is highly nitrated and regulated. NC as lacquer (guitar lacquer) is moderately nitrated and less flammable and regulated, Lesser nitrations are also used. Often the solvent used indicates the nitration level, Acetone for high nitration alcohols and ethers for lower nitrations.
pyrogenius007 Posted September 30, 2021 Author Posted September 30, 2021 deepakpyro, Hi, I have just come across a NC based glue, it is called STIKFAST I checked out the data sheet of it, it contains NC, camphor and also other solvents which are spirit based. I think it should work. I will first buy this glue, dilute it with acetone, the NC will surely dissolve in acetone, if there is any insoluble solid matter I will try to isolate that, then I will mix it with bp or any color mix set it on fire and see the result. BTW what are you using as a binder for DE stars ?
deepakpyro Posted October 1, 2021 Posted October 1, 2021 Previously i tried to source few Lacquer and adhesives, but most of them are synthetic ones. So cautious on that before buying it. For my DE,i got my NC from one of my good friend.
pyrogenius007 Posted October 1, 2021 Author Posted October 1, 2021 deepakpyro, what was the source of your NC ? if it was from shot gun shells or bullets then my dream of crackling stars may remain just a dream, I do not have any friends/relatives who own firearms. Thanks for replying to all my queries and best of luck for all your future projects.
deepakpyro Posted October 2, 2021 Posted October 2, 2021 deepakpyro, what was the source of your NC ? if it was from shot gun shells or bullets then my dream of crackling stars may remain just a dream, I do not have any friends/relatives who own firearms. Thanks for replying to all my queries and best of luck for all your future projects.Trying to get smokeless powder from ammunition is dead-end. My source is pyro grade NC Lacquer. I have bought it from chemical traders in my state
pyrogenius007 Posted October 2, 2021 Author Posted October 2, 2021 deepakpyro, Where is pyro grade NC Lacquer available and which state do you belong to ? previously I had purchased chlorinated rubber and shellac powder from a trader located in Kolkatta called Akshay Kumar Dutta, they deal in all kinds of pyrotechnic stuff, if it is not the same source can you give me the name, address and telephone number of the trader ?
PRANAB Posted October 2, 2021 Posted October 2, 2021 deepakpyro, Where is pyro grade NC Lacquer available and which state do you belong to ? previously I had purchased chlorinated rubber and shellac powder from a trader located in Kolkatta called Akshay Kumar Dutta, they deal in all kinds of pyrotechnic stuff, if it is not the same source can you give me the name, address and telephone number of the trader ?You can buy this TT Ball.link is https://www.flipkart.com/stiga-cup-table-tennis-ball/p/itmf9ghqfgkz4wqyI have used this items and get good results... I think it will help you...
pyrogenius007 Posted October 2, 2021 Author Posted October 2, 2021 PRANAB, Hi, thanks for the link, I will try these TT balls.
deepakpyro Posted October 3, 2021 Posted October 3, 2021 deepakpyro, Where is pyro grade NC Lacquer available and which state do you belong to ? previously I had purchased chlorinated rubber and shellac powder from a trader located in Kolkatta called Akshay Kumar Dutta, they deal in all kinds of pyrotechnic stuff, if it is not the same source can you give me the name, address and telephone number of the trader ?I am from Tamilnadu, one of my friend owns a firework manufacturing unit here. He gave some amount of Lacquer from his stock. Its not from trader directly. I have bought chems from Akshay kumar Dutt, but i don't think so he is dealing with NC. How costly is that Shellac, chlorinated rubber and bismuth?. I got a good green star forumula without using parlon or Shellac. I okay with the color but not satisfied with color. What forumula you are using for green Star?
pyrogenius007 Posted October 3, 2021 Author Posted October 3, 2021 deepakpyro, Hi, I am from Hyderabad, Telangana. I purchased shellac and chlorinated rubber quite some time back, If I correctly remember the chlorinated rubber was around Rs. 600/- and shellac was around rs. 800/- or so, I do not know the present prices, I have not purchased bismuth as I mentioned in my first post there is no point in purchasing such a costly chemical when I do not have a proper binder. For green I used barium nitrate with pvc, which gave me a fairly good green. The formula is 16 Potassium Perchlorate, (which I substituted with P.Chlorate) 42 Barium Nitrate, 15 PVC which I substituted with parlon as it easily dissolves in acetone and acts as a binder and 2 Lampblack (I omitted the lamp black and still got good results) What is your formula for green without using parlon or shellac ?
pyrogenius007 Posted October 3, 2021 Author Posted October 3, 2021 deepakpyro, How do you mill your b.p ? I forgot to ask you in my last post.
deepakpyro Posted October 3, 2021 Posted October 3, 2021 deepakpyro, How do you mill your b.p ? I forgot to ask you in my last post.I have a ball mill, which i made myself. So far working great. Its capacity is about 1 pound if BP each time. I usually ball mill about 3 to 4 hours. It can ball milled more but considering the milling time and quality of BP, mentioned hours is ideal for my use. The below is my green star forumulaStrontium/barium Nitrate 55Sulphur 5Dextrin 5Magnalium 19PVC 16 You can swap the barium with strontium for red. In the above you can 50/50 Spherical Al & mgal. Still fine tuning the same . To achieve good green. Red is awesome, I love that. As you are using chlorate stars, how are you avoiding chlorate and sulphur incompatibility when priming your stars?. You have to sulphur all the place !. I know there is a topic run in same forum. Open for suggestions.! Please see your DM.
pyrogenius007 Posted October 4, 2021 Author Posted October 4, 2021 deepakpyro, I too have a self made ball mill with a similar capacity. For priming I use Pot.chlorate 55, Mag/al. 5, dextrin 4, coal 20, saw dust 6 (I sieve it in the finest mesh of a kitchen sieve) iron oxide 5, pot. dichromate 5, this gives good results> I normally give my stars about 3 coatings of prime, even otherwise chlorate stars ignite very easily. Yes I will check my DM.
FlaMtnBkr Posted October 8, 2021 Posted October 8, 2021 Here is the thread I was referring to in my first post. I think you will find it encouraging... https://www.amateurpyro.com/forums/topic/6209-usapyros-no-nc-dragon-eggs/
pyrogenius007 Posted October 10, 2021 Author Posted October 10, 2021 Here is the thread I was referring to in my first post. I think you will find it encouraging... https://www.amateurpyro.com/forums/topic/6209-usapyros-no-nc-dragon-eggs/Thanks for taking the trouble and sending the link, I have gone through it, very informative. I do not have Red Gum, I will try it with shellac. Red Gum is not available in India, I have tried many sources here and importing it will cost me a bomb.
Richtee Posted October 10, 2021 Posted October 10, 2021 I have tried many sources here and importing it will cost me a bomb.Well, that should not be a big issue
SharkWhisperer Posted October 13, 2021 Posted October 13, 2021 Thanks for taking the trouble and sending the link, I have gone through it, very informative. I do not have Red Gum, I will try it with shellac. Red Gum is not available in India, I have tried many sources here and importing it will cost me a bomb.RG is definitely good stuff but replaceable. Glad i stocked up before prices naturally increased last year. Probably even higher now with global shipping issues. At least in the US, shellac isn't really used all that much; you can buy it but it's not cheap. I see it for $15/lb. It's got a long history, but is easily substitutable and I'm told is a pain in the butt to get into solution (can't say--never used shellac). FWC (in the US) upped some prices recently (like many companies--shipping's getting crazy), some trivially, some by a few bucks/pound. Importantly for crackle/DE afficionados, he dropped his price on bismuth trioxide from the already low (relatively...) $20/lb to $15/lb, which is the cheapest I've ever seen it in small quantities. Bismuth isn't exactly rare, so this is good news. RG was $10/lb a year or so ago, then 12, now 12.50... oh well. You can always go to SkyRobber and pay $18.52/lb for RG if you're allergic to money. Same folks that are happy to sell you milled KNO3 for $9/pound (3-4x anybody else's prices). Amazing people are so naive...
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