I am going to build a press. Need a bit of help

[Uarbor]

So I am currently only making black powder rockets by hand ramming. I'm going to build a hobby press both to press my black powder rockets and someday whistle rockets and one day eventually srobe Rockets. This press will be for 1 pound Rockets only. The Jack I'm looking at is 5 tons. I would think it would be plenty of capacity. I did a bit of research on whistles and they are generaly pressed at six thousand pounds per square inch which would be less overall direct pressure with a 1-pound rocket. Stobes are about 8,000 lb? Anyway I have the universal tooling and I want to try it out on other stuff eventually. If I decide to go up to bigger Rockets I will probably build a new press. So what is the most capacity I would ever need for one pound Rockets? It seems to me that five tons would be plenty. Please correct me if I'm wrong

[Bensmith]

Yup, that’ll be plenty powerful enough for 1lb motors. In fact, at full load you’d be able to put 22,000psi on the fuel grain. More important than absolute pressing force is the squareness and rigidity of the press.

[Uarbor]

Yup, thatll be plenty powerful enough for 1lb motors. In fact, at full load youd be able to put 22,000psi on the fuel grain. More important than absolute pressing force is the squareness and rigidity of the press.

thanks good point on the squareness and rigidness

[Arthur]

Look into three steel plates and four lengths of all thread (prob 1" or so) arrange it so that the two outer plates are between nuts on the all thread and the third plate is driven up and down in the middle by a hydraulic jack probably 2 to 10 ton marked. A force gauge -either oil filled or electronic will enable reliability.

 

Like it or not you probably can't build and make for the price of a Harbor Fright press https://www.harborfreight.com/12-ton-shop-press-33497.html

 

Force gauge https://fire-smith.com/products-1/ols/products/pressure-conversion-tool

[justvisiting]

I have 3 presses. The first one I built myself with pieces of I-beam, 1" diameter allthread, and lots of nuts. I used a 20 ton air/hydraulic jack bolted into place and a spring return. I couldn't imagine using the hand crank for rockets, time-wise. Great for pucks though. I use various spacers, which stack and center on each other. I can make 12" long 3lb motors on it.

 

The second one I bought used from Woodysrocks. It's a 10 ton press with a hydraulic pump from a truck, and runs on 12VDC. The cylinder is single action. The return is slow but I like it. I can make 12" long 3lb motors with it.

 

The third one is a 1 ton arbor press, modified to have a longer throat area. The spline has been ground to a hex shape on the right to accept a 1 1/8" socket. I use a Wolters P to F gauge to set a torque wrench to the desired setting for a particular pressing force, and then press using the torque wrench. I mounted a large heavy pulley on the left side for speedy return and lowering of the ram to the work. With a bit of technique, I can easily press 1lb nozzleless rocket motors with it. A 'regular' tube support doesn't fit under the ram area well, but my brass and mylar ones do. The 1lb motors are usually pressed fairly close to the pressing capacity of 2000 pounds, but 1500 pounds will work, and isn't too hard on the arm. 1500 on the P to F gauge works out to 3400psi on a 1lb motor.

 

For mostly 1lb motors, I'd prefer a 2 ton arbor press with a torque wrench. It's faster, and needs only human energy to operate.

[Uarbor]

Thanks for all the help guys. I have just been slowly collecting stuff along the way I got a decent 10000 pound Force gauge used for $70 Which is less than purchasing the Harbor Freight short body RAM and a gauge at this point. My Jack is on its way it is a 12 volt electric double acting 5 ton hydraulic jack with 13 inches of travel. I managed to find a higher-quality one that's not a bunch of plastic parts. Now I'm trying to just get out of paying for the rest of the materials LOL I was thinking about using railroad tie plates for the steel plate. I have a bunch of heavy c-channel and 3 in angle iron I was thinking about just fabricating something out of that. I stopped by Lowe's today checking out the threaded rod in case I go that route the black heavy duty stuff seems pretty reasonable priced looks like I'm going to come in just under $300 in total materials but at least I will have a press that is convenient to use. I will definitely share a video when I get it up and running. But I'm not in a big hurry to slap it together I want to do a nice job I'm going to hit the flea market and see if I can find a source of good steel plate. I would like to try to recreate the workings of a punch caress so that the Ram slides up and down in a track the whole way up and down. Edited July 25, 2021 by Uarbor

[Uarbor]

I have 3 presses. The first one I built myself with pieces of I-beam, 1" diameter allthread, and lots of nuts. I used a 20 ton air/hydraulic jack bolted into place and a spring return. I couldn't imagine using the hand crank for rockets, time-wise. Great for pucks though. I use various spacers, which stack and center on each other. I can make 12" long 3lb motors on it.

 

The second one I bought used from Woodysrocks. It's a 10 ton press with a hydraulic pump from a truck, and runs on 12VDC. The cylinder is single action. The return is slow but I like it. I can make 12" long 3lb motors with it.

 

The third one is a 1 ton arbor press, modified to have a longer throat area. The spline has been ground to a hex shape on the right to accept a 1 1/8" socket. I use a Wolters P to F gauge to set a torque wrench to the desired setting for a particular pressing force, and then press using the torque wrench. I mounted a large heavy pulley on the left side for speedy return and lowering of the ram to the work. With a bit of technique, I can easily press 1lb nozzleless rocket motors with it. A 'regular' tube support doesn't fit under the ram area well, but my brass and mylar ones do. The 1lb motors are usually pressed fairly close to the pressing capacity of 2000 pounds, but 1500 pounds will work, and isn't too hard on the arm. 1500 on the P to F gauge works out to 3400psi on a 1lb motor.

 

For mostly 1lb motors, I'd prefer a 2 ton arbor press with a torque wrench. It's faster, and needs only human energy to operate.

thank you for the detailed response. I was seriously considering treating myself to a tube support from Woody's along with a good supply of tubes because I'm not sure the support will fit my tubes. I know you definitely need one for whistle or strobe. Do you really need a tube support for a black powder rocket at 3400 PSI?. I was wondering if the PVC pipe and hose clamp type would be good enough or is the Woody's version really worth paying more than I paid for the tooling? I guess what I'm asking is would my money be better spent elsewhere? Edited July 29, 2021 by Uarbor

[Uarbor]

Look into three steel plates and four lengths of all thread (prob 1" or so) arrange it so that the two outer plates are between nuts on the all thread and the third plate is driven up and down in the middle by a hydraulic jack probably 2 to 10 ton marked. A force gauge -either oil filled or electronic will enable reliability.

 

Like it or not you probably can't build and make for the price of a Harbor Fright press https://www.harborfreight.com/12-ton-shop-press-33497.html

 

Force gauge https://fire-smith.com/products-1/ols/products/pressure-conversion-tool

thanks for mentioning the third plate moving up and down idea. It worries me though about having metal on metal with a moving plate over the all thread. I was trying to figure out another material that is non-sparking in case it binds up a little bit and then releases it could Spark. Maybe I'm overthinking it

[Arthur]

Plastic bushings could be made of PVC or ABS which may be available as plumbers pipe near you.

[justvisiting]

Uarbor, you are right about the fit of NEPT tubes being an issue. The company could not make 2 batches of tubes in a row with the same OD if their lives depended on it. They've been put on a pedestal by rocket makers. There are some of us that are working with damp fuel and lower pressing forces, but at the same time, gurus are either indifferent or dismissive of new ideas for some reason. I guess pyro isn't much different than other areas of life

 

I made an adjustable tube support out of brass shim stock that I've pressed hundreds of rockets with. It was a PITA to make and takes a bit of a knack to use. I then tried using the same logic with mylar. Mylar works well at the lower pressing forces, no problem at all. It's as cheap as dirt to try. But it's a new idea, so not popular. And it doesn't make anybody any money. The problem with 'my' supports is that the spindle is not centered by them, as it would be with a square-bottomed support from Woodys or similar. Same with the PVC and clamp-type support. An easy workaround is to make a small insert for the first rammer, that guides the spindle tip to the center before compaction occurs. I made inserts out of rolled up gum tape, plastic, and even rubber tubing. So, that problem is solved. I used PVC supports with clamps for hundreds of rockets. The use of a machined tube support is no guarantee of fit, and there's no guarantee that the spindle will stay centered after the first increment. A loose tube 'walks' downward and makes the whole situation wobbly. The support makers could attach the spindle base to the support and have guaranteed centering of the spindle, but they choose not to do that for some reason.

 

As far as pressing damp propellant at 3400psi with no tube support, I don't know the answer. One way to find out. I think that's around the burst strength of NEPT tubes. But, when we think of NEPT tubes, are we talking about the old inconsistent good ones, or the new inconsistent ones with 10% less paper? Woody makes his tube supports to fit the tubes of the day. You may buy a batch of tubes elsewhere that don't work with a rigid support. He'll bore out a support to fit, but what if the next batch is too small? The 'solution' is to add extra wraps of paper. I'm not into jumping through hoops to make stuff work. NeighborJ made a plastic tube support that works very well at lower pressing forces, and can adjust to minor tube OD variations. At very high (and unnecessary) pressing forces, it's hard to open and the motor does swell somewhat. For normal use, I prefer it over my own because it's a bit faster. I prefer it over the clamshell type because the motor doesn't get stuck in one half of the support. To be fair though, maybe motors don't get stuck as much now that some of us are moving in the direction of low pressing force.

 

If you spring for a Woodys tube support, I would suggest you get a large supply of tubes that fit it from him at the same time. The future of NEPT is a question mark.

 

I don't use the sliding plate on my allthread press like Arthur does. After a few times of scraping my knuckles raw on the threads, I got some of the plastic sleeves that slip onto metal shower curtain rods and slipped them on the threads. No more blood

[Uarbor]

Uarbor, you are right about the fit of NEPT tubes being an issue. The company could not make 2 batches of tubes in a row with the same OD if their lives depended on it. They've been put on a pedestal by rocket makers. There are some of us that are working with damp fuel and lower pressing forces, but at the same time, gurus are either indifferent or dismissive of new ideas for some reason. I guess pyro isn't much different than other areas of life

 

I made an adjustable tube support out of brass shim stock that I've pressed hundreds of rockets with. It was a PITA to make and takes a bit of a knack to use. I then tried using the same logic with mylar. Mylar works well at the lower pressing forces, no problem at all. It's as cheap as dirt to try. But it's a new idea, so not popular. And it doesn't make anybody any money. The problem with 'my' supports is that the spindle is not centered by them, as it would be with a square-bottomed support from Woodys or similar. Same with the PVC and clamp-type support. An easy workaround is to make a small insert for the first rammer, that guides the spindle tip to the center before compaction occurs. I made inserts out of rolled up gum tape, plastic, and even rubber tubing. So, that problem is solved. I used PVC supports with clamps for hundreds of rockets. The use of a machined tube support is no guarantee of fit, and there's no guarantee that the spindle will stay centered after the first increment. A loose tube 'walks' downward and makes the whole situation wobbly. The support makers could attach the spindle base to the support and have guaranteed centering of the spindle, but they choose not to do that for some reason.

 

As far as pressing damp propellant at 3400psi with no tube support, I don't know the answer. One way to find out. I think that's around the burst strength of NEPT tubes. But, when we think of NEPT tubes, are we talking about the old inconsistent good ones, or the new inconsistent ones with 10% less paper? Woody makes his tube supports to fit the tubes of the day. You may buy a batch of tubes elsewhere that don't work with a rigid support. He'll bore out a support to fit, but what if the next batch is too small? The 'solution' is to add extra wraps of paper. I'm not into jumping through hoops to make stuff work. NeighborJ made a plastic tube support that works very well at lower pressing forces, and can adjust to minor tube OD variations. At very high (and unnecessary) pressing forces, it's hard to open and the motor does swell somewhat. For normal use, I prefer it over my own because it's a bit faster. I prefer it over the clamshell type because the motor doesn't get stuck in one half of the support. To be fair though, maybe motors don't get stuck as much now that some of us are moving in the direction of low pressing force.

 

If you spring for a Woodys tube support, I would suggest you get a large supply of tubes that fit it from him at the same time. The future of NEPT is a question mark.

 

I don't use the sliding plate on my allthread press like Arthur does. After a few times of scraping my knuckles raw on the threads, I got some of the plastic sleeves that slip onto metal shower curtain rods and slipped them on the threads. No more blood

thanks for all the info. I am definitely liking the idea of using the minimum pressure to make something reliable. I watched Ned Gorski press black powder Motors on an arbor press with no tube support. I think he was pressing at two thousand pounds of force. But that was on a half inch ID motor so the PSI would have been up at least 3500 on the half inch fuel grain?. Anyway I have something to add to the roll of paper inside of the first rammer for centering. I tried this as best I could and it does an okay job. I have added another step of my own that really seems to help. I noticed that the tip of the longest cored rammer doesn't exactly fit tightly around the spindle so that means that even with the paper up near the top it could still be off a bit. So I do the trick with the long rammer first and I put a half the total amount of nozzle clay in there and give it a very very gentle tap with my mallet just to make it stay in place only. Then I take the shortest cored rammer which has the smallest hole of any of them and I slide it gently down the tube and I listen for it to make contact with the spindle. If it does then I know I'm off center and I adjust until I can slide it into the no-pass line without in any way catching the spindle. Then I put the long rammer back in and give it a good whack locking it into a perfect Center. My steel plates are arriving Monday and I'm starting to get excited LOL I already have the tube support and 200 tubes in my shopping cart at Woody's. I also already ordered the new spring loaded bulkhead tool that forms a pass fire in one shot. I pretty much plan on mastering the one pound rocket and then moving on. I really am just enjoying the black powder for now so I guess I will make a quick and dirty tube support and decide whether or not I want to pull the trigger on $400 worth of tube support and tubes considering I already have a hundred and twenty of the Spiral wound tubes I have been using. Thanks for all the help.

 

https://youtube.com/shorts/aLTccpPi38k?feature=share

Edited July 29, 2021 by Uarbor

[Uarbor]

I got the Jack all wired up the way I want it. Everything's ready to go just waiting on them steel plate

 

https://youtu.be/qhkQDvmWXrM

[FrankRizzo]

Man, that is painfully slow but certainly cost-effective. Buying one of those 12-Ton Harbor Freight presses and using your electric jack in place of the bottle jack might be a win-win.

 

There was a fellow at the past PGI convention who had rigged-up 12V RV leveling jack as his pressing mechanism. It worked surprisingly well, but he had a Woody's press purchased by the end of the week.

Edited July 31, 2021 by FrankRizzo

[Uarbor]

Man, that is painfully slow but certainly cost-effective. Buying one of those 12-Ton Harbor Freight presses and using your electric jack in place of the bottle jack might be a win-win.

 

There was a fellow at the past PGI convention who had rigged-up 12V RV leveling jack as his pressing mechanism. It worked surprisingly well, but he had a Woody's press purchased by the end of the week.

yeah it's definitely a bit slow. At least I won't have to worry about overshooting my pressure. I was considering the RV jack until this one came up in the search. Edited July 31, 2021 by Uarbor

[Arthur]

For pressing rockets a long stroke ram is a huge advantage, as the pressure is applied incrementally along the tube.

[Uarbor]

For pressing rockets a long stroke ram is a huge advantage, as the pressure is applied incrementally along the tube.

this thing has at least 10 inches of stroke. Are you talking about the fact that you don't need as much force in the increments around the spindle as you do in the upper part? Edited August 1, 2021 by Uarbor

[Uarbor]

I thought you all might like to see what I came up with. The top and bottom plate are press plates from a 20-ton press. The force gauge came with that long extension on the gauge and I had to figure out a way to mount it. It does not have a flat surface that you can set the tooling on so I decided to put it on the top. I left myself a couple of extra sets of nuts underneath the top plate for some future additions I'm going to make an h block with some Springs underneath the top block so I don't have to worry about perfectly lining up the rammer with the force gauge

 

https://youtube.com/shorts/yd3ppRUq4gY?feature=share

[dlking59]

Looks good to me. As long as it gets the job done don't need to be real fancy.