shell size vs mortar tube

[ronmoper76]

Is there such a thing as a shell fitting the tube to snuggly? For example what if the black match was enough to prevent the 2.5" cylinder shell from just dropping down the tube completely and it needed a stick to push it down the tube when preparing to fire? I"m having a issue or two,i suspect it's my lift powder and i have a little benzolift i want to try out next to see if it cures the problem but i'm inexperienced with it,I only played around with teaspoons of it in a tube with toilet paper wadding and it's obviously some mean shit and i dont wanna start blowing mortar tubes.. I have some excellent shells from what i can see,but they are popping 20 feet off the ground and having me shit my pants repeatedly. I dont have alot of mortar experience and suggestions are welcome!

 

I should add the spolette timing seems great,stars are all lighting,the break is a bit hard,but im happy with all of it,i just can't get any height. Its pathetic they barely go up and blow on the way back down scaring the shit out of you. I used yellow pine for the charcoal i think but whatever it is its not working properly. Can i safely shoot 2.5"x4.5" canister shells with benzolift,and how much should i start testing a dummy shell with?

Edited May 13, 2021 by ronmoper76

[Arthur]

First consider the lift powder. Try the standard baseball test. Lift a baseball from a mortar and time the flight, then improve the powder til you can get no more flight time.

[SKC]

You're very near to success if only you finish the last leg towards successful shell lift.

First check your BP, if it is fast enough. There are ways to check the strength of BP which you have to find by yourself. Or you may increase amount of BP/Shell.

Are you using the right kind and mesh size of charcoal? Do you ball mill your BP? Besides that, blackmatch sleeve thickness should not be considered as measurement of fitness of your shell to the morter.

The shell should fit to the morter such a way that it should not slide unless pushed gently.

There is no point in getting shitty feelings as every successsful pyros have standardised their work through trial and error method. Only you have to decide what suits you best.

[Mumbles]

If you can gently guide the shell down the mortar, it will probably be fine assuming it's built well. When building cylinder shells, it's common to occasionally build a shell that's a touch too big and needs a little encouragement to slide down the gun, especially if it's dirty. Rolling the shell on a hard surface can also help to settle down any pleats, spiking, or the leader so that it'll go down a little easier. If you have any available, you may also want to see if another mortar would work. Fiberglass, HDPE, and cardboard all tend to have slightly different diameters and some may be more accommodating. HDPE specifically can also curl in at the top over time. Shaving off a little around the mouth may help if you think this may be an issue.

 

In terms of the black powder, more lift can also do the trick. Finer material, say 4FA instead of 2FA, might also work. I don't encounter it as much with cylinders, but I ran into this issue a few times with ball shells. There, to me, seems to be a critical mass of lift required. Black powder burns faster under pressure. More lift can get the pressure higher initially to get the speed up to properly lift a shell. 25g might flop a shell out to maybe 100 feet, but 30g would lift it up to the proper height. For me, this was exaggerated by firing in colder weather. Confining the lift better can help as well.

[ronmoper76]

First consider the lift powder. Try the standard baseball test. Lift a baseball from a mortar and time the flight, then improve the powder til you can get no more flight time.

If only i had a baseball and a tube to fit it,lol

[ronmoper76]

If you can gently guide the shell down the mortar, it will probably be fine assuming it's built well. When building cylinder shells, it's common to occasionally build a shell that's a touch too big and needs a little encouragement to slide down the gun, especially if it's dirty. Rolling the shell on a hard surface can also help to settle down any pleats, spiking, or the leader so that it'll go down a little easier. If you have any available, you may also want to see if another mortar would work. Fiberglass, HDPE, and cardboard all tend to have slightly different diameters and some may be more accommodating. HDPE specifically can also curl in at the top over time. Shaving off a little around the mouth may help if you think this may be an issue.

 

In terms of the black powder, more lift can also do the trick. Finer material, say 4FA instead of 2FA, might also work. I don't encounter it as much with cylinders, but I ran into this issue a few times with ball shells. There, to me, seems to be a critical mass of lift required. Black powder burns faster under pressure. More lift can get the pressure higher initially to get the speed up to properly lift a shell. 25g might flop a shell out to maybe 100 feet, but 30g would lift it up to the proper height. For me, this was exaggerated by firing in colder weather. Confining the lift better can help as well.

Where do i start.. I never mastered BP but yes i am ball milling as asked above i suspect the granules were to large the biggest screen i have is 12 mesh so i use something else with holes in it that i guess to be about 4 mesh and then the grains are longer due to pushing it through the holes. The week i made it was hectic and i drew a blank but i suspect i might have added too much binder,not sure....I had a ounce under each shell...Okay so here comes the question that might make me look like a idiot "Confining the lift better can help as well." this comment drew a hundred questions in my brain before i asked a question and after you wrote it. So what i did i found online somewhere,I saran wrapped one ounce of BP tightly into a ball and taped it firmly against the bottom of the shell with "covering the Black matched spolette" a piece of heavy clear packing tape, because i saw it in a picture like that online... Saran wrap and two pieces of tape isn't doing shit to confine the lift powder or help build pressure to lift my shell is it?? In the picture i removed the lift but it was attached like i described. From the pic you can see how the shell is just snug enough to keep it from falling on its own but it isn't tight. Spiking or anything else like that seemed unnecessary to me because of the .250 shell thickness. I used benzo burst coated rice hulls in them and from what i could see from three test,they break damn hard and sound like someone shooting a 270 next to your head.. If you see any problems please feel free to critique my methods as i'm still learning and open to all suggestions.

Edited May 13, 2021 by ronmoper76

[Arthur]

A few suggestions;

You can't make good powder without milling enough, pressing enough, and corning into grade-able powder on the proper meshes. You must mill till the mill dust burns without scorching white paper, Having a consistent product is the only way to be able to do tests. Getting some meshes and making sieves lets you get standard mesh sizes for each powder grade. You could look for cheap meshes and melt them into the bottom of a plastic sandwich box (then they stack and have a lid).

[SharkWhisperer]

If only i had a baseball and a tube to fit it,lol

Most decent hardware stores will sell HDPE piping in 3" needed for baseball testing. You can use a baseball (old or new) or a dummy canister shell (paint it bright) filled with sand or whatnot for testing (watch your head). Or you can spend $5 (plus shipping, the killer) for a 3" x 20" HDPE mortar from any number of retailers. Then they'll already have a respectable end-cap/plug screwed in. Some are more durable than others. Fiberglass mortars are lighter, about the same price as HDPE, and preferred by many. Mumbles mentioned lip curling with HDPE. Also note that it becomes pliable when it gets hot, and can cause slight buckling along the length that can impede shell travel and risk flowerpotting. My last order of HDPE tubes had some that were a little elliptical so I stood them in front of the fireplace for a little while and then pressed them round between my knees. Worked fine. Fiberglass won't do this. Either way, mortar tubes are easy to locate and not too expensive. If paying for shipping anyways, do yourself a favor and buy several/many. Sounds like your powder just isn't burning hot enough, but that's assuming you're using an appropriate lift/shell weight ratio and appropriate BP grain size. You mentioned 1 oz BP/shell but didn't mention your shell weight, so no way to assess this. 4-12 mesh BP might be a little large for smaller shells. I'm guessing from your pictures those shells are somewhere around 2.25" diameter. I see in your other post the plastic weed canisters you're using, which are around 1.9" diameter before wrapping/spiking. What are you using for a mortar???. And mortar tube bottom end-capping? If you're just ramming a hollow tube into dirt and calling that your endplug, you're going to get crummy results because the ground will compress during BP deflagration and lower confinement that much more. I'd be more concerned with getting my BP right before supplementing with benzolift. Decent yellow pine with sufficient milling should work ok for lift/burst, but just how fast is your end product burning? Like Arthur mentioned, you want your BP fast enough to be able to light a small pile on a piece of white office paper that should disappear with a fast "poof" and only leave char marks with zero burn through.

 

I don't corn my BP and never will unless I'm reloading BP ammo. Just a time-consuming step that serves me no benefit. Hot BP that's been wet-granulated works just fine for pretty much anything in fireworking, provided your charcoal quality and milling times are ok. Corning is fine and many swear by it, but if anything it slows burn rate vs similar-sized less-dense granulated powder. Rockets don't need it because they'll be pressed or hammered to density anyways. For reliably reproducible musket/canon powder, dense corned BP is great--but it's meant to burn at a controlled (and submaximal) speed that is easily reproducible. Goex (or any other) commercial BP for example, purposefully isn't the fastest possible because they get inconsistent quality in charcoal shipments over time, and could never reproduce their very fastest batch. So they tune it to "fast but not superfast" and adjust oxidizer ratios if they get a slower/faster charcoal for their next (huge) batch. It's a simple thing to eclipse commercial BP with homemade BP in burn rate; many of us do it routinely.

 

Blah, blah. You've successfully made a variety of different pyro comps/devices but you haven't mastered BP yet??? You'll get a lot of satisfaction, and extra weed money, once you do. It's not hard...

Edited May 14, 2021 by SharkWhisperer

[ronmoper76]

Most decent hardware stores will sell HDPE piping in 3" needed for baseball testing. You can use a baseball (old or new) or a dummy canister shell (paint it bright) filled with sand or whatnot for testing (watch your head). Or you can spend $5 (plus shipping, the killer) for a 3" x 20" HDPE mortar from any number of retailers. Then they'll already have a respectable end-cap/plug screwed in. Some are more durable than others. Fiberglass mortars are lighter, about the same price as HDPE, and preferred by many. Mumbles mentioned lip curling with HDPE. Also note that it becomes pliable when it gets hot, and can cause slight buckling along the length that can impede shell travel and risk flowerpotting. My last order of HDPE tubes had some that were a little elliptical so I stood them in front of the fireplace for a little while and then pressed them round between my knees. Worked fine. Fiberglass won't do this. Either way, mortar tubes are easy to locate and not too expensive. If paying for shipping anyways, do yourself a favor and buy several/many. Sounds like your powder just isn't burning hot enough, but that's assuming you're using an appropriate lift/shell weight ratio and appropriate BP grain size. You mentioned 1 oz BP/shell but didn't mention your shell weight, so no way to assess this. 4-12 mesh BP might be a little large for smaller shells. I'm guessing from your pictures those shells are somewhere around 2.25" diameter. I see in your other post the plastic weed canisters you're using, which are around 1.9" diameter before wrapping/spiking. What are you using for a mortar???. And mortar tube bottom end-capping? If you're just ramming a hollow tube into dirt and calling that your endplug, you're going to get crummy results because the ground will compress during BP deflagration and lower confinement that much more. I'd be more concerned with getting my BP right before supplementing with benzolift. Decent yellow pine with sufficient milling should work ok for lift/burst, but just how fast is your end product burning? Like Arthur mentioned, you want your BP fast enough to be able to light a small pile on a piece of white office paper that should disappear with a fast "poof" and only leave char marks with zero burn through.

 

I don't corn my BP and never will unless I'm reloading BP ammo. Just a time-consuming step that serves me no benefit. Hot BP that's been wet-granulated works just fine for pretty much anything in fireworking, provided your charcoal quality and milling times are ok. Corning is fine and many swear by it, but if anything it slows burn rate vs similar-sized less-dense granulated powder. Rockets don't need it because they'll be pressed or hammered to density anyways. For reliably reproducible musket/canon powder, dense corned BP is great--but it's meant to burn at a controlled (and submaximal) speed that is easily reproducible. Goex (or any other) commercial BP for example, purposefully isn't the fastest possible because they get inconsistent quality in charcoal shipments over time, and could never reproduce their very fastest batch. So they tune it to "fast but not superfast" and adjust oxidizer ratios if they get a slower/faster charcoal for their next (huge) batch. It's a simple thing to eclipse commercial BP with homemade BP in burn rate; many of us do it routinely.

 

Blah, blah. You've successfully made a variety of different pyro comps/devices but you haven't mastered BP yet??? You'll get a lot of satisfaction, and extra weed money, once you do. It's not hard...

They average about 300 grams when finished and fused. For reasons i don't wanna explain right now,i'm going to try some of the riced benzolift i made a while back first,just been busy

And i use the same yellow fiberglass mortars i had in the picture,they are tough and come already plugged. I milled the shit out of my BP,I know it isnt that. I made quite a few pounds of pine charcoal from 2x4 scraps over the winter,perhaps i overcooked it,whatever it is im scraping it all for star prime,getting a completely new batch of charcoal and starting over fresh after the benzolift tests

What if i built the bottom of the shell like a DVC leaving a recess for lift and hot gluing a disk in the end,i imagine that would get it up to pressure nicely? or would it be to much?

Edited May 14, 2021 by ronmoper76

[Arthur]

When changing lift comp, do some tests to be certain that your mortar will stand it.

[BetICouldMake1]

Be careful with the benzo lift, it's a totally different animal and you could easily blow a tube, especially with tight fitting shells. A shell that's tight in the gun should make your lift more efficient, not less. I would really recommend tweaking your bp grain size/amounts before trying benzo. You should be able to lift any shell with bp, it's just a matter of dialing things in.

 

Pine charcoal won't make the hottest bp, but it should be serviceable. I've lifted shells that size using powder made with hardwood charcoal. When you granulate your powder using more of a grating motion will give you fewer of those long "worm" grains. I make a ball and push it into the screen and then twist. You get a feel for it pretty quickly and can adjust how much pressure you're using to somewhat control the size of the grains. Running the powder back through the screen you used to granulate helps as well. You can do that while the grains are still damp or push them through after they're dry. If you still end up with larger grains than you want you can always crush them up a bit once they're dry. Laying them on a sheet of kraft and rolling them with a dowel or section of pvc pipe works well.

 

Don't under estimate the importance of grain size. If you screen your bp and use what passes the 12 mesh you have you'll end up with something closer to 4FA. Ideally you would screen that again and only use what sits on a 20 mesh. If you don't have a 20 mesh normal window screen is close (something like 18 mesh).

 

A set of screens is really indispensable. You can find small sections of screen for just a couple bucks on amazon or aliexpress and make your own or get a set of bucket screens for around $50. With the price of lumber right now the latter might actually be the cheaper option.

[ronmoper76]

I do have a few screens a 12,20,30,100,200. I used a 12 mesh screen to make the benzolift grains in the photo you looked at before. I do have some stuff in a bag labeled prime I know I made with the 20 mesh screen a long time ago. Im putting the picture up now and would you please take a look and tell me if this is more like what i want. I always thought it was way too small to make BP and never tried it for that purpose yet. My grains were MUCH larger like the single one in my hand. Perhaps this is all coming down to improper grain size

Edited May 14, 2021 by ronmoper76

[SharkWhisperer]

Those worm grains can easily be passed back through your 12-mesh screen to break them up into 2-3 pieces and some scrap. Might burn faster, but they're already little accordians with a lot of surface area... Worth a try. An ounce should launch a 300g shell higher than 20 feet, so good to revisit your charcoal/BP. Walmart ERC pet bedding typically makes a decent-speed charcoal, it's pretty cheap, and as chips going in it's mill-ready coming out without needing to bust up limbs with a hammer beforehand. Like others said, for 2.5" shells, -12+20 might be more appropriate for grain size. You could build the lift into the bottom of the shell like 1.4 canisters do, but use something like thin cardboard that's weaker than your shell effect bottom as the bottom seal, so you know it'll burst backwards. That little bit of containment might make a big difference. And if you have blackmatch, why are you crossmatching your shell bottom with that green visco??? Seems a whole lot more unreliable than using blackmatch, and I'm guessing your lift flame is bypassing the visco entirely to ignite your timer. I've seen others use visco as the time fuse, often with a drop of NC/BP on the bottom end, but using it as overlaid crossmatch just sounds risky--my guess is if your visco is even bothering to ignite, it's doing so at the open ends and burning without purpose while your spolette or time fuse is catching fire directly from your lift flame. Seems like the visco is just going along for the ride...

 

Careful with the benzolift--strongly suggest starting small-quantity and launching some dummies instead of guessing with an effects shell. Won't take much to exceed your 20 foot altitudes with your BP. Benzo can rescue crummy bp, but it also has a nasty bite if you aren't careful.

[ronmoper76]

Those worm grains can easily be passed back through your 12-mesh screen to break them up into 2-3 pieces and some scrap. Might burn faster, but they're already little accordians with a lot of surface area... Worth a try. An ounce should launch a 300g shell higher than 20 feet, so good to revisit your charcoal/BP. Walmart ERC pet bedding typically makes a decent-speed charcoal, it's pretty cheap, and as chips going in it's mill-ready coming out without needing to bust up limbs with a hammer beforehand. Like others said, for 2.5" shells, -12+20 might be more appropriate for grain size. You could build the lift into the bottom of the shell like 1.4 canisters do, but use something like thin cardboard that's weaker than your shell effect bottom as the bottom seal, so you know it'll burst backwards. That little bit of containment might make a big difference. And if you have blackmatch, why are you crossmatching your shell bottom with that green visco??? Seems a whole lot more unreliable than using blackmatch, and I'm guessing your lift flame is bypassing the visco entirely to ignite your timer. I've seen others use visco as the time fuse, often with a drop of NC/BP on the bottom end, but using it as overlaid crossmatch just sounds risky--my guess is if your visco is even bothering to ignite, it's doing so at the open ends and burning without purpose while your spolette or time fuse is catching fire directly from your lift flame. Seems like the visco is just going along for the ride...

 

Careful with the benzolift--strongly suggest starting small-quantity and launching some dummies instead of guessing with an effects shell. Won't take much to exceed your 20 foot altitudes with your BP. Benzo can rescue crummy bp, but it also has a nasty bite if you aren't careful.

thank you for everything you have told me thus far,i have updates and they are strange... and that is a green fast burning fuse that i bought a few rolls of months back. My blackmatch is low,i only have 8" sticks left and i'm saving it till i get a nice day to make more. i been using it for test with 3 inches of red visco taped to the end. It does work believe it or not,i fired a couple live rounds that did light fine.

 

I went to the river today with a scale,benzolift,and a dummy round and shot a few off.. The first was 5 grams of benzo lift,it was awful like my BP,3 feet in the air maybe. Second was 11 grams and it was awful to,maybe 6 feet..Third i tried 20 grams wrapped up tight in aluminum foil with many layers in a tight ball,and i got maybe 20 feet? Fourth i tried 25 grams wrapped the same way only with 4 layers of duct tape over the aluminum foil and additionally i added a layer of tape around the shell so it fit so tightly I had to break a stick off and shove it down tight into the bottom of the tube. I got a nice little pop finally and 9.5 seconds till it hit the ground and it's the last one i got to try because it went in the river and i only brought one with me...

It wasn't crazy by any means definitely did not injure the tube in any way and it definitely flew. i'm not sure where to go next..take those little worms and make them smaller as you suggested? Its benzolift for crying out loud,i was actually scared the first shot,lol

I was meticulous making it,it was as smooth as icing when i mixed up and dried it,but i used that same crappy BP maybe?

I think if i go to 30 grams i could use it as is,but that seems so crazy when i compare it to what should be.. they say start at 5 grams??? 5 grams didn't do crap,i could have farted harder. What's wrong guys,lol

 

UPdate. f....k this crap.....30 didnt do shit again,either did 40.. Im burnt out for now,this is a pain in the ass compared to building rockets. What do i need a quarter lb to put one shell up??

I be back in a few days.

I don't get it.. A teaspoon in a 1lb rocket tube with toilet paper packed in the end rings your ears and sounds like a cannon. 10 times that in a mortar barely makes a noise or shoots anything...

I shouldn't have to load a mortar like a old civil war cannon,with a ramrod and wadding to make it work

Edited May 15, 2021 by ronmoper76

[SharkWhisperer]

... and that is a green fast burning fuse that i bought a few rolls of months back.

Yeah, that green perc fast fuse is dangerous. It is just so easy to mix up slow-ass regular ol' "green" visco with fast green visco. I first encountered that in PA a few years ago at a roadside shop, and still have a few packages left. FAST visco should not be green, ever, I think. That shit'll kill people, if it hasn't already. Fast fuse is either QM or silver in my world. But some might consider it amusing to put a foot of fast green into an inert package and watch somebody hand-light it. I guess.

 

RM...I guess if your ends took light on the fast-fuse, you might get spolette/time fuse ignition, but I still don't see it...there's still the plastic it'd have to burn through at the timer ending....Dunno. Bet it'd work just as well without that odd crossmatching job.

[BetICouldMake1]

Are you screening your powder/benzo to get specific cuts (e.g. -12+20) after you granulate, or just using whatever you get? If you're getting inconsistent results using the same amount that means somehow the burn rate is changing from test to test. If your powder had a wide range of granule size it could be that you're not getting consistent distribution in each load. So one test gets more fine powder and works, then the next one is chunky and doesn't. Having too much fine powder in the mix can cause problems too because it settles into the spaces between grains and prevents fire from passing easily.

 

Like Shark said, better charcoal will give you better powder, but it still seems to me that there's an issue with your granulation or grading process.

[ronmoper76]

Yeah, that green perc fast fuse is dangerous. It is just so easy to mix up slow-ass regular ol' "green" visco with fast green visco. I first encountered that in PA a few years ago at a roadside shop, and still have a few packages left. FAST visco should not be green, ever, I think. That shit'll kill people, if it hasn't already. Fast fuse is either QM or silver in my world. But some might consider it amusing to put a foot of fast green into an inert package and watch somebody hand-light it. I guess.

 

RM...I guess if your ends took light on the fast-fuse, you might get spolette/time fuse ignition, but I still don't see it...there's still the plastic it'd have to burn through at the timer ending....Dunno. Bet it'd work just as well without that odd crossmatching job.

your right about the fuse! I have a interesting story i could tell some day involving tearing store bought fireworks apart and running into a big piece of it,it could have killed me,i never saw it before till then. I just made about 100ft of match last night with 6 strands in it and it's still out drying,i'm going to get it pulled through leader pipe hopefully today if im not to busy. I am going to revisit my granulation process carefully as well as recess the lift charge in the very bottom of my shells to get better confinement as well. I'm going tubing down the river all day tomorrow,so it might be a couple days till i come up with answer. I was pissed last night and went to bed,but i don't give up so easily,im gonna get to the bottom of this,Thanks to everyone for there help.

[SharkWhisperer]

your right about the fuse! I have a interesting story i could tell some day involving tearing store bought fireworks apart and running into a big piece of it,it could have killed me,i never saw it before till then. I just made about 100ft of match last night with 6 strands in it and it's still out drying,i'm going to get it pulled through leader pipe hopefully today if im not to busy. I am going to revisit my granulation process carefully as well as recess the lift charge in the very bottom of my shells to get better confinement as well. I'm going tubing down the river all day tomorrow,so it might be a couple days till i come up with answer. I was pissed last night and went to bed,but i don't give up so easily,im gonna get to the bottom of this,Thanks to everyone for there help.

I'd let that match dry an extra day or two before piping it. Even skinny 6-strand. BM has an odd characteristic, at least in my hands, of looking dry and brittle when it's still got water in the core. Piping it now might trap any remaining moisture.

[ronmoper76]

5 minutes to late,if this match is still wet,i hate you,lol

This is my new design with the lift in the bottom half inch of the tube,additionally I granulated my powder again through the 12 mesh screen to eliminate all the worms and a 30 mesh to get all the dust out.

I will test tonight if able,If this doesnt work,im back to square one.

[ronmoper76]

Problem solved,works perfectly. It sunk the tube a inch in the ground when it shot and took almost 10 sec to return back to the ground. I used 25 grams of Benzolift and the shell weighed in at 325 grams.

[ronmoper76]

I tried 3 more all with same results.I'm dying to know if this was the problem all along and my BP was fine,just poorly granulated and not contained nearly enough.Strong Containment seems to be a key element even with benzolift it doesn't do shit unless it has something strong to break through...You guys are great and thank you for helping me learn something new and resolve this issue I'm trying eastern red cedar this time,I milled the last batch 12 hours,im going on two days with the latest one,and i think i'm gonna wait some more just because. It's not worth rushing if its creates such a damn headache like above. Later guys!

One other thing FWCB has a benzo lift made with salicylate instead,anyone experimented with it? How much different is it? I'm more than pleased with benzoate,but curiosity is getting the better of me,lol

Edited May 17, 2021 by ronmoper76

[BetICouldMake1]

If it only works confined you probably just have mediocre black powder. Not a big deal if you have a system that makes it work. The Maltese lift shells using slow powder a BP maroon, somewhat like what you've been doing.

 

Your powder made with cedar charcoal will assuredly be much faster than the pine charcoal. Charcoal is the single biggest variable in making black powder. I'd bet that screen mixed ERC powder could beat out your milled pine powder.

 

I believe the original benzolift formula calls for sodium salicylate, though I could be mistaken. I would guess using sodium salicylate would be hotter than using a benzoate. The major drawback is sodium salicylate is very hygroscopic.

 

What are you using for a ball mill? 12+ hours is a long time to mill, but it might be necessary if you're using something like a HF tumbler, especially if it's running factory RPM. Those small mills aren't very efficient but at least getting them to turn at the proper RPM makes a big difference.

[ronmoper76]

If it only works confined you probably just have mediocre black powder. Not a big deal if you have a system that makes it work. The Maltese lift shells using slow powder a BP maroon, somewhat like what you've been doing.

 

Your powder made with cedar charcoal will assuredly be much faster than the pine charcoal. Charcoal is the single biggest variable in making black powder. I'd bet that screen mixed ERC powder could beat out your milled pine powder.

 

I believe the original benzolift formula calls for sodium salicylate, though I could be mistaken. I would guess using sodium salicylate would be hotter than using a benzoate. The major drawback is sodium salicylate is very hygroscopic.

 

What are you using for a ball mill? 12+ hours is a long time to mill, but it might be necessary if you're using something like a HF tumbler, especially if it's running factory RPM. Those small mills aren't very efficient but at least getting them to turn at the proper RPM makes a big difference.

yeah its probably overkill,I have a 17lb rebel ball mill,i switched it out to a 5 gallon bucket last night because the sound of the mill changed significantly. A interesting thing was when i started the mill,it was half full. When i opened it back up,it was so full it was touching the lid,it doubled in size,lol Im running a second batch now and deciding exactly how i wanna do it. I definitely am not doing it all at once. I might do a 1lb at a time till i get my granulation process down.I wanna try with little to no binder again. I have a homemade comet pump that makes 1.50" pucks easily,i just couldn't break them apart quite like i wanted and gave up the first time i tried. I understand now how crucial it is,im gonna work on it today after i do some more brick work,im repointing the one side of my house this summer.

Edited May 18, 2021 by ronmoper76

[Carbon796]

If your running a stock rebel 17, it needs to be modified to run efficiently.

 

If your running less then half full of lead media, 35lbs, it will not be running efficiently.

 

You should be granulating your BP, just like you would for making proper polverone. Except with cold water, if your using a water based binder.

 

You shouldn't need to contain your BP to get mediocre performance from it. You have more than one issue going on, based on your descriptions. Your description of your benzolift test, is what good BP lift should sound like, without extra containment. Even your benzolift performance description, sounds like it's on the weak side. It's great that your able to get something in the air, to a usable height. But it really sounds like you still need to work some kinks out.

Edited May 18, 2021 by Carbon796

[ronmoper76]

If your running a stock rebel 17, it needs to be modified to run efficiently.

 

If your running less then half full of lead media, 35lbs, it will not be running efficiently.

 

You should be granulating your BP, just like you would for making proper polverone. Except with cold water, if your using a water based binder.

 

You shouldn't need to contain your BP to get mediocre performance from it. You have more than one issue going on, based on your descriptions. Your description of your benzolift test, is what good BP lift should sound like, without extra containment. Even your benzolift performance description, sounds like it's on the weak side. It's great that your able to get something in the air, to a usable height. But it really sounds like you still need to work some kinks out.

I was waiting for someone to say that.I completely agree with you after mixing a 10% dextrine liquor at a 20% ratio with my mill dust today,pressed it through a screen on brown paper and threw it in the sun. The spot on the ground where i screened it i spilled a six inch area of powder.While still damp i hit it with a lighter and was absolutely shocked how fast it went up,nothing close to anything i have made thus far. I did some reading and thought about my methods,I believe i was using way to much water and recrystallization was killing me,like i didnt even mill it at all. And the way i made the benzolift was quite similar,I hadn't understood that completely till now. Today opened my eyes a lot,