Is it best to use red gum for granulating?

[Paramax55]

Thanks for everybody's help on my last post. I've made my first batch of black powder. I put everything in the ball mill and, a few hours later, I had a fine powder like black talk. A little pinch on a paper towel, set it on fire, and I had that sweet smell of burnt sulfur with the puff of smoke rising in the air. It was truely glorious.

 

Now it's time to granulate it. I know I can wet it with store bought isopropyl. I believe I can also use denatured. I also saw a post saying to use some red gum disolved in the alcohol. But the only information I've been able to find is from skylighter. I know it's a binder, and I've seen a claim that it's also a fuel. Skylighter says it makes the powder stronger/faster.

 

So... what's the deal with red gum? I already have it. Should I use it?

[MikeL]

Just a new guy thought - I'd stick with isopropyl alcohol or denatured alcohol with your first BP. The more widgets and doodads you add to the soup the less likely you are to know what kind of soup you made. Don't overwet, roll it thin, push it through the right screen, let it dry. Like so dry you can't break a grain between your fingers. Once that method is perfected (I'm still on this step) try the other stuff.

[SharkWhisperer]

Thanks for everybody's help on my last post. I've made my first batch of black powder. I put everything in the ball mill and, a few hours later, I had a fine powder like black talk. A little pinch on a paper towel, set it on fire, and I had that sweet smell of burnt sulfur with the puff of smoke rising in the air. It was truely glorious.

 

Now it's time to granulate it. I know I can wet it with store bought isopropyl. I believe I can also use denatured. I also saw a post saying to use some red gum disolved in the alcohol. But the only information I've been able to find is from skylighter. I know it's a binder, and I've seen a claim that it's also a fuel. Skylighter says it makes the powder stronger/faster.

 

So... what's the deal with red gum? I already have it. Should I use it?

Red Gum has NO place in BP!

 

The only thing Skyligher's "Red Gum BP" is faster than is it's granny-ass crappy regular hardwood charcoal BP kit that if you read the fine print says ("requires a ball-mill for best rests" or something similar). Their BP kits (both) are horrible. And their charcoal is crap for BP but will work ok for some stars and fountain compositions. Not BP. They should be embarrassed--because it is a very effective way to turn otherwise bright and interested fireworker learners into dejected and dissatisfied people, without it being their fault whatsoever. Selling overpriced kits with shit components (charcoal, for sure--the most important component), and no assistance when they fail. Except to provide a "Red Gum BP kit", ffs, which is ridiculous (and more expensive!).

 

Hey Amigo, BP is not hard. Good BP. it all depends on if you're including a binder for lift/burst, and I would never recommend using red gum in BP (aside from because it's 3x the price of dextrin). Like MikeL says, he uses isopropyl alcohol (probably 70% because 91% is more difficult to freely find these days, especially at Walmart, at a reasonable price). And it dries much faster than pure water, for us impatient types. Most people probably use plain water for wet granulating; tap water most likely. I don't mind spending a few pennies on faster-evaporating alcohol. Anyways, if you are using dextrin binder, the 30% water content is sufficient to activate your binder (water is necessary with dexrin), but it might take some time--If I'm wet-granulating BP with 70% IPA, I knead/massage the water thoroughly and leave it for 20-30 minutes (nothing bad will happen in that time, or longer...) before granulating on a screen. This is to allow the dextrin sufficient time to activate--just like corn starch thickening gravy/stew, but at room temperature. And if I'm not using dextrin, it still allows more uniform water mixing through my BP.

 

Another compatriot here kneads his moistened BP in a plastic bag for about the same time so it doesn't dry out--me, I just cover it in a bowl or plastic container depending on what I'm using to mix it. And whatever screen size (1/4" or more usually 1/8") I use to granulate, I do so once, let it dry perhaps 5 minutes while breaking apart any chunks that are obviously sticking together in clumps, and then run it through the exact same screen a second time. Then spread out, break up any residual clumping (maybe too wet?) and let it dry fully. Done, besides storing, screen-sizing, and testing.

 

MileL above was the first to show that southern pecan wood can make some speedy BP--good information. Making crappy BP (we ALL have) is easy. Making consistently reliable BP is also easy, but comes with a slight learning curve.

 

RED GUM HAS NO PLACE IN BP. Sorry, the Skylighter kits are both overpriced and negligent. But red gum is fantastic stuff for many things pyrotechnic,including easy metallic stars, and there is a perceived "shortage" right now (only comes from Australia), so stock up if convenient--like most fireworking precursor chems, they essentially last forever. Til you can't get them anymore...

 

p.s. If you're making BP for rocket fuel, you absolutely do NOT want binders (dextrin, etc) in your mix--that just makes it super problematic to compress into a single propellant grain...

 

This is just basic stuff. Please read over the many, many BP-making threads here (or elsewhere) and you'll probably find that whatever "problem" you might run into has already been experienced and solved. And we're always happy to help you sort our problems with thoughtful approaches/attempts at BP, or anything related. Just...no red gum in your BP. Please? Waste of money when it's so valuable/useful in other items!

 

Good luck!

Edited March 21, 2021 by SharkWhisperer

[Paramax55]

Thanks for the clarifications. The explanations for red gum seemed plausible - if that super-fine powder isn't as good as turning it back into crumbs, then adding red gum is even better - so they say. Anyway, it wasn't expensive (amazon) and it doesn't go bad, so I'll let it sit on the shelf for now.

 

As far as my liquid for granulating... I have 70% isopropyl, I have denatured, and I have tap water. I can grab one just as easy as the other. Other than evaporation rate, is there any reason to (use)/(not use) one over the other?

 

P.S. 1) My ultimate goal is to load BP in my 45 ACP cartridges. And 2) does dextrin help anything other than being a binder?

Edited March 21, 2021 by Paramax55

[Richtee]

I thought we went thru this. If you are gonna try using BP for cartridges, you’ll need a better more consistent powder than hand mixing and screening are gonna give you. You really need a ball mill and a puck pressing rig. And corned consistent sized powder grains.

 

Otherwise, you will not be able to rely on the load being consistent. No fun to have a slug stuck in your barrel, or so much fouling you have to clean it every mag.

[Carbon796]

Red gum's primary use is as a fuel. Just like purgut's primary use is as a chlorine donor. Just because they can function as binders in some situations. Doesn't mean their primary role has changed.

 

RG binding BP came about, before 70:30 iso binding BP did. As a way for hobbyist that build and shoot at regional events. Too be able to build and shoot on site ( "from scratch" ), in a short time frame. The additional weak ( with BP ) fuel from RG slows it down some. But it is still very serviceable.

 

Later it was discovered that just granulating with 70:30 iso alone. Could produce serviceable grain hardness, for most applications. Though you'll probably find, that more experienced, or traditional builders. Of larger type devices, are still using some type of water based binding method. Or pucking it, depending on their application.

 

Just straight denatured alcohol, has been tried on multiple occasions, with multiple mixed results. The charcoal species used seems to be one of the deciding factors.

 

Loading. 45 acp with screen granulated BP probably isn't going to get you very far. And, you may want to check out some reloading forums. Too see what the real wisdom of it is.

[Paramax55]

OK. I don't undetstand where all of the comments of not ball milling are coming from. I've ball milled to a consistency finer than commercial talk. And as far as pucking and corning go... Of course I will end up doing that. A puck mold will take no time to churn out on the lathe - a nearly mindless activity. But I'm not concerned with that part right now. I want to granulate powders made from different charcoals, but I want to start with wetted balls that are done correctly. So... iso, denatured, or water and why is red gum so much worse than dextrin?

[Carbon796]

RG has twice the fuel value of dex. Plus it is a resinous fuel. Which doesn't burn as energeticly in a BP type mix.

 

If your going to puck them, just puck them. You don't use a binder for pucking.

 

Who is saying not to ball mill it ? Milling is required to produce a true BP product.

Edited March 21, 2021 by Carbon796

[Arthur]

Proper BP is made by pressing milled powder into solid blocks and then granulating those and screening the product to get the size grade that you need. Different methods of pressing and corning lead to different distributions of grain sizes (grades) Pyro has uses for several grain sizes, the rest you mill quickly and repress and corn it.

 

Once you have your process sorted for milling, then sort out your process for corning and make, grade and store enough to have enough of each grade to work with for a while.

 

If you must granulate, take some mill powder and make a ball of it containing only enough water to leave it just sticking together under a firm squeeze, leave the ball in a poly bag for an hour to make sure the moisture is evenly distributed, then use a cheese grater to make the grain size you want.

 

Red gum only works in alcohol which costs more money and at 3% RG by dry weight the powder will start to become noticeably slower than plain powder, at less than 2% RG by dry weight the grains you make tend to fall apart easily.

 

 

Small fireworks use a lot of 2FA to 5FA, larger fireworks use more 0FA and cannon grades.

[kingkama]

If your target is make BP bullets, you have to consider that 75 15 10 is not the right mix ratio for guns of short barrel, press, corn, sort and smoothing are mandatory to have a consistent powder with a predictable force. Red gum BP can be a method but 1.5% of dextrine (in ball mill) will works better, 21 to 30 % of 80 water and 20 alcohol or aceton will be good for screen granulation cheap and historical proven. Decide before all that the dimensions of grains you need for the work they must do.

Not last be carefull BP is "safe" but can be a wery dangerous for property, health and Marital relationships..

[Paramax55]

I wanted to granulate first because it is so easy and gives a powder that works much better than mill dust. I know I will make a few fire crackers and I'll probably do - I think you guys call it - a baseball test? I have some tubes left over from New Years and I even have a few shells left over for examples. I'll make an aluminum mold for pucking and I'm planning to make a knurled "roller" machine - like a clothes wringer - to do the korning. It should be really easy to polish with graphite in the ball mill, sans balls.

 

But first things first. I need to make something useful from this mill dust. I think I'll try granulating with 70/30 first since it also seems to be viable for pucking.

Edited March 22, 2021 by Paramax55

[Paramax55]

Kingkama - I'm not finding a "better" ratio listed for pistols.

[Richtee]

I missed that you are milling it... sorry. But pressing and corning are just as important to get consistent powders. If you are just screwing around with the stuff now, dex is the way to go.

[kingkama]

Kingkama - I'm not finding a "better" ratio listed for pistols.

Eventually you have not made a good search. Edited March 22, 2021 by kingkama

[Paramax55]

Kingkama - perhaps you could narrow down the search parameters a little. "Black Powder formula for pistols" on google gave a bazillion results that were 75/15/10, and a few that were off by less than 1%. I'm also well into a 180 page thread on the muzzleloading website and I haven't found anything there either. Maybe you could point to a certain forum, or even throw 3 numbers up on the screen?

[kingkama]

Of course,but curiosity and application are fundamental in this sport, along with patience and constancy.

http://www.privatedata.com/byb/pyro/pfp/BP.html

Edited March 22, 2021 by kingkama

[Paramax55]

It's nice to have all of that info in one place, thanks. I've seen reference to cocoa powder a couple of times - and I have easy access to LOTS of hay - but it's always been dismissed because of its propensity to explode with friction. It didn't seem like it would be very compatible with a ball mill.

[justvisiting]

Paramax55, when you do get to making your puck die, here's a suggestion. Make a base, shaped like a tophat. Make it fit inside your pressing sleeve. Then make your 'plunger' with a stop on it- like an upside down tophat. Then, when you press weighed amounts of pre-dampened powder, each puck will have an identical density. I had my 2" die parts made so that the puck is .500" thick. The density of black powder has a major effect on burning rate, so for use in guns you want the most consistent process possible.

[Paramax55]

My idea was to make a graduated scale on the side of my plunger so I could find the density I wanted. I haven't compressed any yet, so I haven't been sure of what my starting volume vs ending volume will be. I've also gotten to a point in that other long thread where someone made some pellets by compressing without korning. It shouldn't work well from what I understand, but I do want to see what happens. If, on the off chance that it did work, that kind of die would be easy to make and use.

[SeaMonkey]

Thanks Kingkama for the link.

 

Ulrich Bretscher discovered with testing that the Roger Bacon recipes which seem very light

on Potassium Nitrate and very heavy on Charcoal and Sulfur by weight, actually perform

surprisingly well as "by volume" recipes.

 

European measurements were historically made by weight while English measurements were

made by volume. At least until the measurements for Black Powder were standardized as by

weight.

 

I believe Ulrich was the first to notice this characteristic of the Bacon recipes.

[SharkWhisperer]

Thanks Kingkama for the link.

 

Ulrich Bretscher discovered with testing that the Roger Bacon recipes which seem very light

on Potassium Nitrate and very heavy on Charcoal and Sulfur by weight, actually perform

surprisingly well as "by volume" recipes.

 

European measurements were historically made by weight while English measurements were

made by volume. At least until the measurements for Black Powder were standardized as by

weight.

 

I believe Ulrich was the first to notice this characteristic of the Bacon recipes.

With all due respect, Ulrich wrote up some useful info peppered with some trash guesses. He is not an authority on BP, for sure. I highlighted this on an earlier thread and won't re-dissect it again. You can probably locate them by searching for "Bretscher" or "Ulrich". Entertaining, but no genius

 

"by Volume recipes"? C'mon, Monkey--knowing how much water weight charcoal can hold, you profess that "volume measurements" are a realistic criterion? You know better.

 

Ulrich: The guy's well-intentioned but a little naive. Certainly not an icon in modern BP performance, sheesh.

Edited March 23, 2021 by SharkWhisperer

[Paramax55]

I've made up a couple of batches now and I'm already learning some things. Granulated is A LOT faster than mill dust. Firecrackers make a MUCH bigger bang if you just pour the powder in instead of tamping it down. I'm sure I'll find out even more when I go to corning the stuff.

 

P.S. this is probably the cheapest way I've had this much fun in a while.

[SeaMonkey]

For a long time the Roger Bacon recipe, when tested by weight, didn't make much sense.

 

The powder which resulted was very, very poor.

 

Bretscher, being familiar with the differences in European recipes (by weight) and British (by volume) decided to test a thought.

 

When Bacon's recipe is tested with volume proportions the powder is much faster and works for noisemakers as well as firearms.

 

Ulrich's mission was simply to take the mystery out of making fast Black Powder and showing that it could even be done with just a Mortar and Pestle.

 

His research into the various proportional possibilities was very thorough.

 

He presented an Introduction to Black Powder which served as an inspirational starting point for many an independent thinker.

 

Others have added to his basic knowledge by introducing techniques and practices which further enhance the process of making usable quantities of Black Powder for various uses.

 

By removing his web pages from the Active Internet the European Union was making a statement.

 

Our World is changing radically.

 

In Roger Bacon's day not everyone had a scale to weigh measurements but everyone did have access to a cup.

 

Volume Measurements for recipes are very common even today.

 

Certainly not the best for Black Powder, but will do in a "pinch."

Edited March 26, 2021 by SeaMonkey

[kingkama]

the major problem related to the weight of the powder concerns the humidity of the ingredients, if stored in the right way volume or weight are fixed and known, then, working large quantities the difference becomes minimal. Charcoal ideally must be cooked and used As soon as possible, it is stored in whole pieces and ground only when needed.

[SharkWhisperer]

the major problem related to the weight of the powder concerns the humidity of the ingredients, if stored in the right way volume or weight are fixed and known, then, working large quantities the difference becomes minimal. Charcoal ideally must be cooked and used As soon as possible, it is stored in whole pieces and ground only when needed.

I mill large batches of charcoal for storage. Before use, I'll dry out a pound or two of dust in the oven to bone-dry, and then store in airtight containers with desiccant packets (I use color-indicating silica bead packets). Consistent results from batch-to-batch, and using reheated/dehydrated charcoal months later. Don't find a "need" to store charcoal as chunks and then powder it right before use, though can't see that being a problem (if redried after powdering--charcoal chunks absorb atmospheric water nicely, too, even without the surface area of a powder). And I don't see the need to use charcoal as soon as possible. It doesn't really degrade and any change in VOC content would be expected to be minimal compared to the heat blasting it received during manufacture. If charcoal were unstable, then BP made from it would not be expected to remain stable and burn predictably for many years...

 

Like many have said, if you're planning to load cartridges, without corning/pucking to higher density you might be unable to fit a sufficient volume of hot granulated BP in your cartridge. And keep in mind that Goex etc., purposefully burns slower than many hot pyro BPs granulated to the same size, and even if pucked to equal density. With changing wood/charcoal availability, it is easy to modify commercial BP to give a uniform medium-quick burn rate. If Goex went for the fastest burning formulation, it would be pretty much impossible to guarantee achieving that always when charcoal supplies change.

 

And besides getting a slug stuck in your barrel, overpressure is as much a concern as underpressure.

Edited March 27, 2021 by SharkWhisperer